Author Topic: What is a parent to do?  (Read 7465 times)

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Offline Oscar

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2011, 02:01:04 AM »
Quote from: "Torn"
Thanks for the replies Oscar.

Aftercare is indeed one of my biggest concerns with any program.  It does no good for us to send her away only to have her return to the same environment, same friends that contributed to the current problems.  This is of particular concern with the short term programs (although certainly not my only concern there) - if she's gone for six weeks her boyfriend will be waiting for her.  If she's gone for a year will he still be waiting?  Possibly but certainly less likely.  If we can find a way to deal with the issues while she's at home, it avoids the whole question of re-integrating her when a program is complete.

I guess this boyfriend would hardly wait that long but his clones would be everywhere. It is her mindset you need to change. Otherwise the name of the boyfriend would change only, but the next boyfriend would be if the same type.

You need to seek out what the possible option is long-term. Aftercare is 60% of the behavior modification process but at that time most people have blown their money on the previous phases.

What is her general level of motivation?
Does she have goals in life? Realitstic goals or not - is better than no goals - because you can destroy her illusions by taking her to places where she can learn the truth.

One of the lessons in wilderness therapy is to learn that you cannot take the conditions you have been raised under for given. I guess that you as a parent have seen to that your children has a warm bed and they don't starve. They can go into the kitchen and empty it 24/7 leaving you with a logistic problem when it is time to make dinner. A problem you solve because you are a good parent.

In our grandparents time children did work - they helped their parents - so they could survive as a family unit.Today it doesn't function in that way. Personally I want it to be different, so in our family we have decided that the meal friday evening would be bread with something on if our eldest will not tell me what to buy so she can cook it. It has been so since she was 12. Sometime she didn't want to make food and then we all got a tough love lesson. It has become rare. Now we are looking for other areas where she can contribute to our famiiy unit. Maybe you should do the same. Find a task where she has to do a job or choose to let the entire family suffer.
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: So... do I just wait and hope he doesn't die?
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2011, 02:29:40 AM »
Quote from: "Fr0sty"
My son is 16 and not likely to live much longer due to cocaine/extacy/vicodin addiction. He is down to around 100 pounds (5'9"), can't (and I mean can't) get up for school, and has completely changed in personality. He started "experimenting" with pot at 13 then progressed to getting expelled for selling drugs at school (second offense). We have done hospital inpatient, outpatient, inpatient drug treatment (voluntary and involuntary), group therapy, wilderness therapy, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, family counseling, family contracts, police intervention, and out of control youth. We have moved 800 miles away from where we used to live simply to give him a new start. Now he is seriously near death.

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Offline BuzzKill

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2011, 02:33:42 AM »
frosty - if your teen age son is 5'9" and down to 100 pounds while testing + for cocaine and other drugs, you can and probably should get him in a hospital.  Call your department of mental health and tell them you need a parent advocate to help you negotiate the court system and you need advise on getting your son admitted to a hospital for substance abuse that has reached life threatening levels. Take tons of notes and make sure they know your taking notes during each contact by phone or in person.  This will help you keep straight who said what and also make them aware there is a record of the conversation. A tape recording is a good idea if you can manage it. This could be valuable if they stonewall you. If your telling the truth your son needs medical care and you may need the court system to help you get it, so get busy. Going the "easy" route by paying for one of these private for profit placements would be a terrible mistake. A boy as frail as your son may now be could be easily killed in the standard synanon style program.

I know I probably seem like Maia Szalavitz's publisher - but you might want to get your son a copy of Recovery Options.
http://http://www.amazon.com/Recovery-Options-Complete-Joseph-Volpicelli/dp/047134575X
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Offline Oscar

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Re: So... do I just wait and hope he doesn't die?
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2011, 03:05:22 AM »
Quote from: "Fr0sty"
My son is 16 and not likely to live much longer due to cocaine/extacy/vicodin addiction. He is down to around 100 pounds (5'9"), can't (and I mean can't) get up for school, and has completely changed in personality. He started "experimenting" with pot at 13 then progressed to getting expelled for selling drugs at school (second offense). We have done hospital inpatient, outpatient, inpatient drug treatment (voluntary and involuntary), group therapy, wilderness therapy, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, family counseling, family contracts, police intervention, and out of control youth. We have moved 800 miles away from where we used to live simply to give him a new start. Now he is seriously near death.

Basically at this point I just want him somewhere safe. Unfortunately that is not home as I have to sleep sometimes and he climbs out his window. He doesn't need money from me as he sells drugs. The police here are absolutely no help (I know from experience as I have called them a dozen times) and I wish we hadn't bothered to move as the police in WA state were much more helpful. CA drug enforcement is incredibly lax and the "incorrigibility petition" seems to not exist in our county. He has been cited twice for non drug related crimes but there have been no consequences, not even probation. If he were on probation we might have a chance but there seems to be no hope of that. If there is a place we can send him that is safe and won't warp him forever please, please let me know.

Some of the previous treatment places have not done their job properly because they have allowed "diagnose shopping". Your son entered the first treatment place with a pot problem. A problem, but not a problem which would threaten his life. U-turn which is program in Copenhagen seem to have found a method which works because it is voluntary for the teenagers and one difference makes this program apart from the rest. They educate the parents and focus on reducing the drug abuse instead of removing it. In fact once the teenagers are in the program they discover that it is hard to reduce drug use so it is easier to stop it. This they can do with parents who have learned a lot about the psychology of drug use.

As parents we can become enablers without us knowing. That's why any treatment program for minors should demand mandatory participation in parent classes for the entire length of the program which do more than just learning the parents to say "no". As a parent you are their role model 24/7. Every action is seen, heard, registered and learned by our children. Maybe that is why God has seen to that kittens are born blind.

I don't know where you can go and get together other parents in the same situation where you live. It might be something the other posters might help with.

Because of the diagnose shopping any solution I could give you would be kind of warehousing until he is 18. From that point you can only pray and cry if didn't work.

One way is to involve the department of social services. It is a dangerous path because they might target siblings too and then parents could lose all their children. In California they sometime use certain places in Utah which have a huge suicide rate among the graduates. So they are in general not that well when it comes to help families with such problems.

Another way is to make a final deal with your son. Put the cards on the table. Explain him that you are watching him die slowly. You don't want and you have tried to force him into treatment. You don't do try this again as it hasn't work. If you have the money that allows you to send him abroad so do it. Find a school on http://www.ibo.org and show him the school which he can go to if he detox alone before he leaves. The schools cannot provide therapy but if you choose some abroad he would use so much time on the foreign culture that it wouldn’t be as necessary.

If you don’t have the money then explain him that he can drop out of high school if he chooses to enter the National Guard youth challenge program. The next batch starts out in August according to their websites. In order to enter this program he needs to be detoxed and fit. Offer him that you will help him get fit by exercising with him once he has detoxed.

I hope you find a solution.
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Offline Torn

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2011, 03:29:19 AM »
Oscar, you make very good points.

She does have goals... completely unrealistic at this point.  She claims she wants to do well in school, claims she wants to attend law school.  And she's failing all of her classes and skipping school.  But you're right, she's leaps and bounds ahead of kids with no goals at all, and we need to nurture those goals.

I admit that the appeal of wilderness therapy is that she needs to gain some perspective, drop the sense of entitlement and learn to appreciate what we do for her.  At the moment I'm fearful that the wilderness programs are abusive, and no matter how frustrated I get, I really don't want that for her.  This is why I asked in my original post if *any* program is OK, because there are some apparent benefits to some of these programs but its just damned hard to find reliable information.  The program directors tell you they're all flowers and sunshine, while most of the Fornits community is convinced they are all pure evil.  I have to believe the truth is somewhere in between, and it likely depends on the program.

Obviously this is a huge financial decision as well and you are right, if we blow a couple years discretionary income on a nine month experiment, we're all tapped out whether it works or not and we still have to deal with what comes next.  What's maddening is that we'd much rather use the money to buy her a car, smartphone, laptop, clothes, and everything else she wants - and we've offered these if she would live by our rules, study hard and be respectful.  Sadly she'd rather live like an outlaw and then bitch about the things we won't do for her.

I love the Friday night dinner idea.  Unfortunately its way too late for that, she never eats with us anyway, and spends as little time at home as possible.  Sometimes she comes home to sleep, sometimes she comes home to change clothes, and that's about all.  We are very fearful of where this might lead both in terms of her safety and her long term prospects, and that's why we  started looking into these programs.  At this point we have completely lost control, and she lacks the maturity and judgement to make good decisions on her own behalf.
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Offline Inculcated

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So... do I just wait and hope he doesn't die?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2011, 04:10:25 AM »
Hmmm, the timing is so off here and combined w/ the ^ question as posited sigh... but whatever here goes some of my my loose change
.
@Fr0sty :(a few posts back)

The reading recommendations and the advice to stay involved and to take notes from Buzzkill are good, but involving the courts could in all likelihood eventuate “Fr0sty’s” cocaine addicted son being remanded by a California drug court to a Synanon derivative program-- for profit category or not.

At "5’9 and barely a 100 pounds", Frosty’s son…(let’s call him snowball) is dangerously underweight by at least thirty-five lbs.
He could be admitted and held (involuntary psych hold) for observation. If he goes to the hospital first it will lessen the likelihood of court intervention, ( drug court which could require therefore result in criminal charges against him).  Following that, it would be up to the treatment team to evaluate whether his current condition qualifies as risk to him enough that Snowball (if at that point unwilling to stay) be held for more than seventy-two hours

This may qualify as gravely disabled, which IIRC includes (in the cases of persons who have a mental disorder) signs of malnourishment or dehydration. However having a mental disorder or having an inability to provide for ones’ self is not enough alone. The petitioner must establish a connection between the mental disorder and dangerousness and the inability to provide for ones’ self.
Which would involve:

Quote
Findings regarding a mental disorder (§ 6551)    
If the professional in charge of the facility finds that the child is in need of intensive treatment for a mental disorder, the child may be certified for not more than 14 days of involuntary intensive treatment according to the conditions of sections 5250(c) and 5260(b)
This could at least buy you time to get Snowball some fluids and nutrients and somewhat detoxed (to the degree that he will not be high) and possibly more easily reasoned with.

Oscar’s input which seems to be leaning toward harm reduction seems like good advice following detox and nutrients.
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Offline Oscar

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2011, 06:34:22 AM »
@Torn

Are the members of the group she hangs out with charted?

Here there is a SSP-team (Social services, school, Police) which in general is a gossip group. When non-supervised drinking among teenagers occurs (we have no underaged drinking laws) the police somehow find the place see to that there is food and they start to talk. The night owls are also alerted so the teenagers can continue to hang out monitored by adults.

A member of the night owls we want to keep our neighborhood safe for our children. So we take turns (I have one night every 3'th month) walking around in our town where things happen.

The group your daughter hangs out with may have parents which are in the same situation as you and might be willing to do something about it. Instead of the school expelling the lot, having the court dealing with them at some point, it might be time if the whole group got taken out of business for the summer. The summer holiday could very well be a trip to a wilderness area with parents and logistic advice from authorities.

However if the group is not charted, have you suggested a normal boarding school to her?

You could tell her that you are so worried that you don’t think that she can reach any of her goals. If she state she has goals etc. then reply that she can prove herself by passing one weekend in a boot camp styled weekend camp. They have one up in Michigan. It will set you back the plane tickets and some 500 dollars. You can get someone to babysit the younger kid and you can take spouse to Michigan too where you can rest at hotel nearby. Here is the link:

http://www.midcoursecorrection.org/faq.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIn1JE93Fk (Youtube advertisement)

We have not learned of any deaths in this camp. Of course they too work with boarding schools, so don’t buy into their recommendations but use this experience to let your daughter know some of the other kids. Some of them are sent there by their programs because they didn’t follow rules. It might just happen that she learns how awful kids have it in a lot of programs and learn that the best path for her would be to avoid her present lifestyle at least until she is 18.

Have you tried to talk to her while having some to block the door so you could taunt her into proving herself?

It would far more easy to make the option you find for her a success if she is convinced she need a new approach before it is started. Otherwise she will sit it out until she is 18 and then nothing can be done.
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Offline Deprograms

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2011, 07:48:22 AM »
It is important to not forget where you were as a teenager and what she is going through. Take a step back see the situation for what it could be. It is something we don't like to admit but teenagers have sex as do adults. If adults were told not to have sex would you follow it? If adults were told not to drink but it was at the store would you obey that? if you believe she is having sex...I would start by talking to her about practicing safe sex and why you believe she should wait. Expect her to push you away because as of now it sounds like the relationship has already been broken. As for drinking and drugs. Talk to her about the difference between experimentation and addiction. Kids are going to experiment, it's only natural. Hormones were raging at that age were yours? Maybe a trues should be met and a day out with your daughter to go shopping and hang out should be done. These are years you'll never get back. If she feels misunderstood she will rebel on everything you say. Does she have any health issues. Depression, trouble with friends, an abusive boyfriend, sleeping disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome. Anything that could mimic what you are seeing? Sending her away is not going to fix this problem. Sometimes it's not easy but we have to give our children space to breathe, experience freedom, and allow them to make mistakes as much as we want to guide them with the best of intentions. Sometimes we can mix this up and start to micromanage. No child is perfect. Were you perfect at 15? It is important to not forget these times of raging hormones. KNOW HER CYCLE!!! If your daughter is crazy once a month or for 2 weeks out of the month on her cycle...well this is something that affects us all! And our poor boyfriends and husbands too :) Get her a tutor for grades. Let her have freedom to go out. Spend time with her once a month just the 2 of you to do something fun! And she needs a therapist that will not tell you THE PARENTS her private thoughts!! She also needs a journal that can be kept private. I hope this helps and I'm soo glad you reached out!!! Keep us posted on the situation!!! I am seeing a therapist for the rest of my life since the brainwashing I endured. It's not the answer, it will never be. The answer lies within your family. When a couple breaks up and has a falling out one doesn't send the other away. When best friends have a falling out one doesn't ship the other one off for treatment and blame the mess on the other. In this situation it sounds like you and your daughter have had a falling out...no one else can fix this. I do think talking to a therapist could help if you find one she is comfortable with. I also think maybe once a month or 2wice a month a joint session couldn't hurt. I would strongly urge you NOT to put her in an impatient or outpatient treatment. Maybe suggest what I have written and see how she responds. It is 50 50 here on making this work. The damage has been done and the blame game won't get anyone anywhere. Try to keep an open mind with her...she's a teenager with raging hormones, experiencing boyfriend troubles for the 1st time, possibly sex, pressure at school, and at home. Allow her the freedom to discover herself. This is a time when parents don't want to let go and children need to discover themselves. Trust me you don't want her discovering everything for the 1st time in college. Kids who aren't allowed to be teenagers are extremely wild in college.  Good luck I hope I have helped in someway. Stand up tall and know everyone makes mistakes and you are doing your best. A new beginning can always be made. :) Keep us posted...much love!
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Offline Dysfunction Junction

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2011, 08:40:34 AM »
Unmitigated troll fest.  Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents.  We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls?  Probably not.
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Offline Anti-Troll

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2011, 08:50:14 AM »
Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Unmitigated troll fest.  Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents.  We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls?  Probably not.
:blabla:
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Offline brian23083

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2011, 09:02:48 AM »
Quote from: "Deprograms"
It is important to not forget where you were as a teenager and what she is going through. Take a step back see the situation for what it could be. It is something we don't like to admit but teenagers have sex as do adults. If adults were told not to have sex would you follow it? If adults were told not to drink but it was at the store would you obey that? if you believe she is having sex...I would start by talking to her about practicing safe sex and why you believe she should wait. Expect her to push you away because as of now it sounds like the relationship has already been broken. As for drinking and drugs. Talk to her about the difference between experimentation and addiction. Kids are going to experiment, it's only natural. Hormones were raging at that age were yours? Maybe a trues should be met and a day out with your daughter to go shopping and hang out should be done. These are years you'll never get back. If she feels misunderstood she will rebel on everything you say. Does she have any health issues. Depression, trouble with friends, an abusive boyfriend, sleeping disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome. Anything that could mimic what you are seeing? Sending her away is not going to fix this problem. Sometimes it's not easy but we have to give our children space to breathe, experience freedom, and allow them to make mistakes as much as we want to guide them with the best of intentions. Sometimes we can mix this up and start to micromanage. No child is perfect. Were you perfect at 15? It is important to not forget these times of raging hormones. KNOW HER CYCLE!!! If your daughter is crazy once a month or for 2 weeks out of the month on her cycle...well this is something that affects us all! And our poor boyfriends and husbands too :) Get her a tutor for grades. Let her have freedom to go out. Spend time with her once a month just the 2 of you to do something fun! And she needs a therapist that will not tell you THE PARENTS her private thoughts!! She also needs a journal that can be kept private. I hope this helps and I'm soo glad you reached out!!! Keep us posted on the situation!!! I am seeing a therapist for the rest of my life since the brainwashing I endured. It's not the answer, it will never be. The answer lies within your family. When a couple breaks up and has a falling out one doesn't send the other away. When best friends have a falling out one doesn't ship the other one off for treatment and blame the mess on the other. In this situation it sounds like you and your daughter have had a falling out...no one else can fix this. I do think talking to a therapist could help if you find one she is comfortable with. I also think maybe once a month or 2wice a month a joint session couldn't hurt. I would strongly urge you NOT to put her in an impatient or outpatient treatment. Maybe suggest what I have written and see how she responds. It is 50 50 here on making this work. The damage has been done and the blame game won't get anyone anywhere. Try to keep an open mind with her...she's a teenager with raging hormones, experiencing boyfriend troubles for the 1st time, possibly sex, pressure at school, and at home. Allow her the freedom to discover herself. This is a time when parents don't want to let go and children need to discover themselves. Trust me you don't want her discovering everything for the 1st time in college. Kids who aren't allowed to be teenagers are extremely wild in college.  Good luck I hope I have helped in someway. Stand up tall and know everyone makes mistakes and you are doing your best. A new beginning can always be made. :) Keep us posted...much love!

That was very insightful,deprograms, I am sure most parents lose the memories of being a teenager themselves and can only focus on the job at hand which is being a parent to a child who is out of control and not understanding what is causing all this behavior.  I think it is dangerous to just do nothing but trying to put yourself, as a parent, in the childs place and trying to get closer to the child, as you suggested, is certainly a great first step.
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Offline Torn

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2011, 11:33:58 AM »
Oscar,

She has already stated that she won't go to a boarding school (and this includes academic boarding schools, not the therapeutic variety) or any other facility and will run away if we try to put her in one.  I am convinced that a transport service is the only way she would see inside one of these places.  I believe we waited too long for her to do anything voluntarily at this point, she has such a strong sense of independence (while at the same time being completely dependent on friends/boyfriends/etc who literally feed her, drive her around and give her places to stay when she doesn't want to come home).  We don't seem to have any leverage anymore because she has found a network of enablers who give her shelter if we try holding her accountable for her actions.

At this point it seems our only options are:
 - allow her to continue running wild and hope she doesn't destroy her future or her life, or
 - take control and take her out of this environment against her will, and find a facility which will encourage success.

Neither sounds like a great option, therefore I am Torn.
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Offline Torn

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2011, 12:03:30 PM »
Deprograms,

I do remember what I did as a teen - and for that reason I am not really alarmed by her having sex (with the obvious caveat that her getting pregnant would be a disaster), nor is pot or alcohol going to cause me panic (again with the caveat that drinking + driving = death).  I did all those things too, and I survived it.  I had to repeat one year of school but that seems to have been the worst of it.  This is when my mother took control and send me to boarding school, and it turned me around academically because I was surrounded by kids who were all focused on getting into a good college.  It did nothing for my vices, which continued unabated.

But I wasn't so extreme as my daughter.  I never openly disobeyed or disrespected my parents.  I came home every night.  When my mother drew a line in the sand and offered me a choice, I took the right path.  I hated boarding school - HATED it.  Classes six days a week, jacket and tie to all meals and classes, very strict rules.  I almost got expelled.  But I survived, went on to a highly respected university and have a successful career. Looking back I know with 100% certainty that my mother saved me.  None of my friends' parents took action, none of them went to college, none of them found success in life.

I want my daughter to have the same opportunities I've had, and she is rapidly closing every door available to her.  My mother shoved me through a door, and I wasn't as far gone as my daughter.

A few days ago thomasC wrote: "you have more time than you think".  I suppose it depends on ones priorities.  Survival - yes.  I don't think she's necessarily on a path to killing herself.  Success - no.  If she doesn't get it together NOW, she will not get into a good college and she will likely struggle with her future.  That doesn't mean she needs a boot camp or even necessarily a therapeutic boarding school (hence maybe I'm on the wrong forum), but she certainly needs something.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2011, 04:44:45 PM »
Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
Unmitigated troll fest.  Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents.  We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls?  Probably not.

That's my take. I've banned the new shooter by ip. When I get a little more up to speed on things it mey be time to start making formal complaints to svc. Providers.
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Offline Oscar

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Re: What is a parent to do?
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2011, 02:46:12 AM »
Quote from: "Torn"
Oscar,

She has already stated that she won't go to a boarding school (and this includes academic boarding schools, not the therapeutic variety) or any other facility and will run away if we try to put her in one.  I am convinced that a transport service is the only way she would see inside one of these places.  I believe we waited too long for her to do anything voluntarily at this point, she has such a strong sense of independence (while at the same time being completely dependent on friends/boyfriends/etc who literally feed her, drive her around and give her places to stay when she doesn't want to come home).  We don't seem to have any leverage anymore because she has found a network of enablers who give her shelter if we try holding her accountable for her actions.

At this point it seems our only options are:
 - allow her to continue running wild and hope she doesn't destroy her future or her life, or
 - take control and take her out of this environment against her will, and find a facility which will encourage success.

Neither sounds like a great option, therefore I am Torn.

Because we at Spft believes that we cannot afford to treat every parent tread as a troll I will answer this.

@Torn

Have she seen the alternative. I would certainly bring her down to a shelther doing some community service with the family. Phone family members so you can force her there if she doesn't want to go. Get the staff to find someone 5 years out of high school who have dropped out so she can see her future.

Then when you return put the cards down on the table. Face her with two options: Graduate classes or start visiting boarding schools with you. If she wants to visit boarding schools then it is fine. If she doesn't ask to her read about transport firms. I took a random pick in the database and here is one where they clearly states that it is time for handcuffs when they have entered the room. They don't even want you in the room introducing them.

I find it awful that teenagers don't know that there are transport firms out there willing to take them to whatever options parents are willing to pay for. I believe in honesty, so I would outline possible options for my child. Most teenagers would accept that their parents put their foot down. They know that 18 means shelter if they really want to live by themselves. A couple of the boarding schools stories on this blog explains how a number of teenagers ended up in a shelter once they turned 18.

Ask her if she really wants to live in a shelter once she turns 18.

Because your IP number could be banned from this message board I will ask you to continue our thread on this message board instead. I am not in charge as every volunteer at Spft only have one message board to monitor, but you will able to talk to Finn (Username: Wiki Researcher) about your situation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »