Damn...It's twisted...

[Aaron3]

Ya know, when I was in Straight DC from 89-90, none of the really bad shit that I read about in these forums happened.  I read that in the early 80's girls were threatened with being gang banged for misbehaving. (my problem in there was wishing I could randomly screw every good looking girl in the place so I would have gladly sat on the girls side for a couple of weeks!) BUT I damn sure wouldn't feel that way if I was a 15 year old girl in the middle of the guys side!
I also read that people were starved and beaten up and totally humiliated in group for just being normal kids.  That is fucked up.  No wonder everybody is so pissed off at the place.  I would be too. In fact, I may have destroyed my life trying to track the bastards down after I got out.
My heart goes out to those who went through that kid of stuff.

Of course I still want to randomly screw every good looking woman I see but at least I can't get started over for expressing it!  Or spit on or restrained!  God ain't freedom wonderful!!
Sincerely,

Serious Nutball!

[Antigen]

I think it's a matter of perspective. The Program really was different from one location or time to another. I saw changes in attitude and intensity between St. Pete and Sarasota and in Sarasota over time. But I didn't "see" exactly the same thing as anyone else who was there. I think that's one of the effects of not being allowed to talk or even think about what was going on from day to day.

I did see girls put on guys' side several times. I'm sure people yelled all kinds of horrible, degrading and threatening things. Something like that wouldn't have made much of an impression on me because I looked at the whole thing as nothing but theatre intended to manipulate us into changing our behavior and thinking. I knew they didn't really mean that they were going to let the guys' side gang bang the girl. I thought everyone understood that.

But, to someone who didn't know going in what it was all about, that would be a terrifying experience, shocking, thought stopping and extremely harmful psychologically and emotionally. I didn't get out of it completely unscathed. But I think I had an advantage that some others didn't have. So I didn't "see" a lot of abuse going on, either. Even the time I got sat on, I believed they wouldn't let it go so far as permanent injury. So the same incident didn't have anywhere near the effect on me that it did on some people.

I understand that the Virginia location was way tamer than St. Pete or Sarasota at first. But several different people who hadn't even done acid before have reported haleucinating in group. The worst abuse was going on inside people's heads. You couldn't see it happening. I think it's real likely that you'll run into people who were there with you and who view the same experience very differently than you do.

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Hey!
No Shit! When I first went in to Straight in May of 88, it was lunch time and a huge ass food fight broke out- guys against girls. The entire place seemed to be on the floor. Peoples backs actually made holes in the walls as people were being slammed and restrained. Now I then realized to myself that joining the Army and going thru basic training really does not look all that bad. Also, a few shots and a couple of bong hits really seemed to be a good coping situation at that precise moment but instead I probabley said W T F at the time and then was handed someones leg or arm to hold onto.....i dunno don't remember really or i may have had a hand slapped over my mouth which I am sure I didn't care much for. Then before ya knew it, we were all sitting in harmony once again singing "Straight Is It" and feeling nothing but love in the air. Yeah I pretty much wanted to nail every girl in the place! Wasn't it John Higby that used to sing "Guyside" Slayer version? Wonder whatever happened to him? I dunno how I even made it thru the place.....I delt with it by screamming to the point that no one including myself knew what I was saying and I also took time out in my busy day to play headgames about rules and if I was really honest. I mean was I honest about my headgames or if I was breathing heavier then normal or was I trying to give myself a headrush? Oh God, Did I just relapse on the side of group with my breathing motives? Should I make an amends for having a wet dream about a girl 5th phaser? Or should I report myself to staff because I probabley had a motive of rape in my dream.....or was it just normal to have a wet dream at age 15 where you could hardly ever even masturbate unless you had 2 or 3 newcomers hanging on to the side of a shower rod? What is a normal wet dream? Is there a wet dream with a criminal motive? I should have been started over for the dream was "MUST HAVE" been pre planned in my subconscience while standing on the side of group which meant that I at some point for at least a second or two got in my head and must have not cared about my group which made me basically a druggie wanting to sell all the newcomers heroin. Started over 7 and 21.....Back To The Front!!!! This is often how my head was pretty much til I graduated. It rarely stopped. I have never had a dream like the ones I used to have in there. I actually cried and felt so guilty about that dream. I could not decide in my mind if I did something wrong or not with that dream. But, I am still sober and I am alive and doing fairly well in life. Don't play as many headgames but, I occasionally still look up at the shower rod looking for all the hands hanging on when I am in the shower......kidding! Aaron, God Damn do you remember when I came into group on 4th phase all fucked up because I was at the Springfield Mall with my parents and I went into the arcade to play a video game and there was a fuzzy on the joystick and I touched it and made myself think that I just touched a leaf of pot......I ran away from my parents Crying violently through the crowded mall trying to find the exit so I could get back to Straight so I could tell the group that I should be started over. Damn, I miss that shit! NOT!! Now , I do truely believe that if a person was in there that did have a problem w/drink or drug and attempted to be as honest as they possibly could and had a desire to get sober, they could get some sort of help thru something even if it was just a time slot of being away from our own choices (it saved me) and being introduced to the steps and eventually AA. I remember an oldcomer asked me if it was wrong that he masturbated that day while on his lunch break at work.....he got set back when he told group...but, shit we were all a bunch of highly hormoned young teens still trying to go through puberty. After he got set back a girl stood up and started talking about this specific time in here past when she was fucking her druggie boyfriend and how disgusted and dirty she felt about it...meanwhile the entire guysides dicks are poking the persons head infront of them while they are all trying to figure out how they can jerk off in their pants with out being noticed or set back. That kind of shit was just rediculous. I don't ever remember seeing anyone getting starved in there or not being allowed to sleep at night...none of us got enough sleep. What the hell, I got set back because I found cigarettes and money and I think pot in a host home.....I deserved that punishment...why did I get set back? Because I played a headgame when I was asked in how many seconds did it take for me to get my newcomers out of that room? I couldn't decide wether I got them out that second or if 5 seconds may of passed before I removed the 1st phasers from the room....meanwhile the oldcomer copped out that night from where we were staying...Me, I got a big shiney set back for 2 weeks!!!! My stay there was very much like 17 and ahalf months of Disney World. Til this day I avoid the aisle in the grocery store that has peanut butter. Is there anyone in here that is sober other then myself and the big A.? Just curious??

[Anonymous]

wow!!!

[Don Smith]

Is there anyone in here that is sober other then myself and the big A.? Just curious??

I'm still sober. 11/28 will be twenty three years.  I don't attend AA though.  Never had a desire to stay in a group setting after I left in April 1984.

Don

[Carmel]

hmmm....I get your meaning Don, but you might want to clarify before someone jumps this one.   I am "sober", however I still drink occasionally and smoke the wayward joint once or twice a year.  I suppose I was always "sober" in that I was never an addict....dunno, thats a hazy line.  Hehe, does this make me a "dry drunk"? ::cheers::

[Don Smith]

I get your meaning Don, but you might want to clarify before someone jumps this one.

I said what I meant.  I'm sober. I haven't had a drink or drug for nearly 22 years.  I condsider myself an alcoholic. But not because Straight said I was.  I knew I had a problem years before I went in.

Don

[Froderik]

I think it's a matter of perspective. The Program really was different from one location or time to another. I saw changes in attitude and intensity between St. Pete and Sarasota and in Sarasota over time. But I didn't "see" exactly the same thing as anyone else who was there. I think that's one of the effects of not being allowed to talk or even think about what was going on from day to day.

Yeah, I noticed changes over time in VA straight. When I went in there (November 6, 1982) the group was insane. It seemed like endless confrontation, with me as one of the main scapegoats. There was a lot of the "St. Pete style" shit going on - people getting sat on, restained, 'marathoned' with exercise all day in intake rooms, food consequences, etc, etc..But over time, a lot of this either faded somewhat, or I didn't notice it due to being out of group more.

I did see girls put on guys' side several times. I'm sure people yelled all kinds of horrible, degrading and threatening things. Something like that wouldn't have made much of an impression on me because I looked at the whole thing as nothing but theatre intended to manipulate us into changing our behavior and thinking.

This is kind of my take on it too...

I understand that the Virginia location was way tamer than St. Pete or Sarasota at first. But several different people who hadn't even done acid before have reported hallucinating in group. The worst abuse was going on inside people's heads. You couldn't see it happening.

Hallucinating in group? Damn...
It's safe to say that VA was tamer than the Florida programs, no doubt about it. Like I said, it seemed to tone down a bit over time. It was rough there in the beginning, but still not as bad as the Florida programs..

[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-22 13:42 ]

[Carmel]

Sorry, I guess I made an assumption on that.  I suppose it comes from what the Straight definition of sober was.  According to them, I would not be "sober" even though I am not an abuser.  In there, you were either a druggie or you were FOS, there was no in between....so I guess when people ask about still being sober, it chafes a little.  You and I have different roots in that respect though...both very valid under the circumstances.  

Hmm, you know, it makes me see how I have struggled with that issue since I was in Straight, I think its actually a definable remnant of my time there, those of which I usually have quite a hard time defining.

How long did I go on feeling guilty for drinking a beer, even though I was not an alcoholic?  It was always in the back of my mind.  I knew that if i had a few with my buddies it was normal, but if I ever drank in front of anyone from Straight, it was a relapse.  The first time I drank after I got out of the program, I defned it as my relapse.  It never occured to me that even though I wasnt an addict, that I was still relapsing because drinking was,is, and always would be bad..bad...bad.  And the fact that I was in Straight made me an addict...not the fact that I may have ever actually drank or taken drugs....wow, I am starting to get confused.  Any thoughts?

[Froderik]

It's kind of funny the way things happened. By that I mean 'weird' funny. I had been out of straight for 3 or 4 months & had been AWOL on my "aftercare" for maybe a month or so. I was no longer living at home, but would still refuse pot or alcohol if it was offered to me. I had what straight used to call (I know the name was taken here by someone) a "powerful attitude." Even before I went AWOL, I had no qualms about hanging out with people (old "druggie" friends) who were getting high. I'd just tell them I didn't smoke any more and that was that. Nobody tried to talk me into doing anything I didn't want to do. I even rode around with total strangers while they went to score dope (pot) in the 'hood. I was in their car and was not about to bail - I needed a lift home after jamming with them. I had met them at the Marble Bar on open mic night...
Anyway, back to broken sobriety. I was at an art opening. I ate a rum ball, not knowing it had alcohol. That was it...At that point I remember saying to myself something like, "Well, I've done that..why bother with this not drinking crap anymore? What difference does it really make anyway?" I went back to the table and poured myself some wine. Up until now, my girlfriend had seen me refuse to drink, etc..so she asked me, "Hey, I thought you didn't drink?" I forget what I said, but we drank together and eventually smoked pot and did bromo-mesc together and that was that. I think I began to realize the fallacy of the whole "chemically dependant" routine that they had finally convinced me of. I just couldn't give a rat's ass about that anymore..I knew deep down that it really didn't matter either way. Life became a carnival.  :silly: I didn't really slow down until about 7 years ago, after my first child was born.

[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-22 20:20 ]

[Anonymous]

There seems to be such a huge difference in oppinion about sobriety and thoughts on Straight and whether Straight helped or hurt people in some way or another. It seems as if the people that are still sober don't have to many negative things to say about Straight but, the ones that are still active in their drinking (holic or not)have a ton of bad things to say. Is their many staff members from straight on this forum or graduates? I could be wrong but it seems like most of the comments are made by people that either were misbehaviors. I have nothing against anyone in here whether they graduated or not or if they were misbehaviors or if they are sober or die hard drug abusers...it makes no difference to me. Everyone makes their own choices in life regardless of what they may have gone through in life. I just find it interesting that some say how bad the experience was at a specific Straight and another says theirs was not as bad or that they are even grateful to some degree for Straight. I am also well aware that some people probabley didn't have drug problems where others may have. After reading Aarons original post and whoever the person was that wrote about some of the specific head games that they played in their(which was actually quite comical....not sure if it was intended to be funny or not), they still seemed to find some good things that they got out of the place. What are your thoughts to all of this :question:

Dave

[Froderik]

These are good observations of how people look at the program differently. There are some ex-staff who post here (and elsewhere) regularly - Clay and Don to name a couple. And for the record, neither one of them thinks too highly of the program, from what I can gather. For myself, the only real good that came out of the place was that I was able to get to know some of the people that I was thrown into that mess with, especially now as "survivors." The program itself was (and still is) an atrocity to say the least.

[Anonymous]

Well Dave, theres over 9,000 posts here in the straight survivor forum. I am sure if you scroll back a ways, you will find more than enough info about what people think.
For those people who are still washed, well, they don't post here that much. If they do, they get their heads bit off and then leave.
What difference does it make anyway? The program was evil, corrupt and it killed kids, plain and simple.


  :flame:

[Carmel]

Gonna venture out on a HUGE limb here and say that maybe those who are still "sober" have good things to say because the idea of "sobriety" is part of what needs to be called into question.  At least the programs idea of it.

Just sounds to me like that " in or out" mentality.  You are either sober or you are not sober.  I thought being an addict or not being an addict was really the issue......whether or not I am drinking or drugging or clean as a whistle...if I am an addict, its the addictive behavior that will manifest in anything and everything else....people can hide from even taking Tylenol for a headache and still behave and make choices as if they were the hardest heroin abuser.

One thing I do remember from Straight and AA was the idea that drugs were not the problem, they were a symptom of the problem....this idea was conveniently extended and retracted in order to satisfy the needs of the moment in group....but its probably the only true thing I ever learned in there.

I am NOT going to speak for everyone, I am simply saying that I really believe that if you can resolve the core issues you have that drive you to self destruct.....it doesnt matter if you have a few drinks or if you smoke a joint or have a one night stand or eat a whole bag of oreos one day....or if you do nothing at all...if those core issues arent dealt with, the behavior will manifest over and over in whatever form is available....for example in religious fervor or other similar paths.  Just because something is deemed acceptable by society doesnt mean it cant be the same thundering juggernaut of excess that drugs were for people.

We are made to make mistakes in life, thats our existence, its how we deal with and make good on those mistakes that makes us better people.  Being "sober" in the conventional sense, to me, is simply another cop-out.

[Aaron3]

I went in when I was 20 and totally fucked up on crack and a bunch of other shit including a whopper of an alcohol problem.  Although I was a young adult, I had the mind and emotional level of a 12 year old with a serious anger management problem.  I walked into the open meeting room and the staff member said " this is Aaron...who's got something to say?"  When everyone broke out in motivation I realized that I had just wound up in a place full of retarded people who needed to get some air.  I thought about punching the asshole holding my beltloop right in the face and bolting for the door.  I just knew that one of the kids close to me ( they were all shaking and carrying on like stroke victims) was going to jump up from his seat and chew off one of my arms.  Then, all of a sudden, one of the horrifying gyrators jumped up out of his seat and spoke english to me.  I was afraid he would say someting like " Awl urrup dorrhogniss ooof"  But no...he said...."I just want to welcome you to straight and if you ever had sex with your sister, you had better tell us."  I was relieved because I didn't have a sister and being as twisted as I was, had I had a sister I probably would have tried to nail her every day!  Two weeks later there I was, arms flailing, slobber flying, ass slamming up and down on a chair just hoping I could be the one that got to say hidie-ho to the the new guy with an oldcomer-ass-attachment.