Author Topic: FDA warning on SSRIs  (Read 58635 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2004, 11:21:00 PM »
My anecdotal experience of life has been that life was pure barely-adulterated hell from age 5 to 25, I barely lived through it at all, and since then I have had 12 good years of actually being happy, and productive, and successful, and actually not going into unpredictable rages and crying fits, and having it actually be *rare* that I think about suicide.

Thanks to Paxil and Welbutrin, and a good psychiatrist.

And the difference between that and the Programs is that I *chose* to go to a pdoc, I wanted his help, and I *wanted* and *want* to take the medication.

I appreciate that patients' response to different medications is very individual and that some patients' illnesses don't respond to medication well at all.

What concerns me is that you tell all the perceived bad as alarmistly as you can, Deborah, and none of the good.

Programs are forced on the unwilling by the unknowing based on the misleading.

Medications, including the SSRI's, have PDR write-ups that are basically correct.  If they're not perfect, well, when you find problems in the information and statistics, it needs to be fixed.  If the drug companies aren't all saints, *fine*.

But I choose for myself, and my life is infinitely better than it was.

I would hate for good medication responders to be turned off from taking things that would effectively control his/her illness and substantially improve his/her life because he/she was freaked out by unduly inflamatory things you post.

Yes, there are risks.  There are also benefits.  And that's why you can't walk into a pharmacy and buy these meds over the counter and prescribe them for yourself---they need to be taken, only for serious problems, under the ongoing supervision of a competent psychiatrist.

If you don't want to take medication, or don't need it, *fine*---don't take it.

But by evangelizing anti-medication for people who may well need it and be helped by it, understand that you are likely doing more harm than good.

Timoclea
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Offline Antigen

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2004, 12:01:00 AM »
I don't really read Deborah's posts as evangelizing anti-medication for people who may well need it. I read it as evangelizing against psyche meds for hundreds of thousands of kids who probably don't need it and who can't give any sort of meaningful informed consent.

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.

--Clarence Darrow

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Offline Deborah

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2004, 12:13:00 AM »
Look Timocleo,
I respect your right to take any drug you choose, legal or illegal.

I am not going to seek out and post information that is supportive of the industry to please you. It's on the TV all day long now. Problem is, just like programs, the public only hears the 'good' from them... and when that's the case... the other side has to be presented somewhere.

I don't understand your defensiveness. Has someone close to you shamed you about taking antidepressants? Must be, cause it sure wasn't me. Some of my closest friends take the things, and I still love them. You take my opinions and choice of what to post way too personally.

I don't appreciate your last comment about harming people. Particularly in light of how many people have been harmed by the psych industry. I'm simply sharing information that people will not get from their shrinkydink pusher. People deserve to have access to all information. That's what informed consent is all about.

Do you have a problem trusting that people can make their own decisions? I think they have a drug for that too.
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Offline Anonymous

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #123 on: August 18, 2004, 10:38:00 PM »
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Offline mom2three

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #124 on: August 19, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »
The problem with medicating is that people think that it stops with the swallowing of a pill. Without proper therapy, there isn't much point in taking the medications in my humble opinion.

I too have a long family history with depression and have had treatment with medication and understand the role it can play. But it does not end with that, I have worked hard to rise above it. I am not currently on medication and haven't been for some time.

When I was younger my parents did not understand depression and it was hell on all of us. No doubt they did not understand what was wrong with me and they handled things the only way they knew how to.

Once I was an adult, I began treatment with a self administered "behavior modification" program with the assistance of a liscensed therapist that taught me about changing my thought processes.  It helped me to really work through my illness and gave me confidence that I was still in control.

THe SSRI helped with the biochemical aspect, the behavior modification helped me to learn to live with it and work with it. I sure wish these tools had been made available when I was a teenager, it may have made a difference then for all of us.
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Offline Anonymous

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #125 on: August 19, 2004, 06:13:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-19 10:16:00, mom2three wrote:

"The problem with medicating is that people think that it stops with the swallowing of a pill. Without proper therapy, there isn't much point in taking the medications in my humble opinion.



I too have a long family history with depression and have had treatment with medication and understand the role it can play. But it does not end with that, I have worked hard to rise above it. I am not currently on medication and haven't been for some time.



When I was younger my parents did not understand depression and it was hell on all of us. No doubt they did not understand what was wrong with me and they handled things the only way they knew how to.



Once I was an adult, I began treatment with a self administered "behavior modification" program with the assistance of a liscensed therapist that taught me about changing my thought processes.  It helped me to really work through my illness and gave me confidence that I was still in control.



THe SSRI helped with the biochemical aspect, the behavior modification helped me to learn to live with it and work with it. I sure wish these tools had been made available when I was a teenager, it may have made a difference then for all of us.



"


And with major depression, serious as it is, it's still the "common cold of mental illness"---if you do well in therapy, particularly CBT type therapy, you may be able to do well off medication eventually--depending on your personal mental health situation.

However, with bipolar disorder and the non-reactive varieties of schizophrenia, it doesn't matter how much therapy you have, more likely than not you're going to *need* that medication, in varying combinations or dosages, for life.

Therapy is still essential, of course.  But once therapy has done all it can do and you *know* how to cope, thankyouverymuch, you may still be *unable* to sufficiently cope without medication.

It's hard to cope, regardless of how good your strategies are, when your brain chemistry is such that your perceptions of reality are flat out not accurate.

I agree with you that therapy is important.  Medication is important.  And it's all individual based on your life history and diagnosis.

Timoclea
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Offline Deborah

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #126 on: August 21, 2004, 12:00:00 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=64&
u=/fo/20040820/bs_fo/6fd966a3bbd7f3c511ec4152a7b4d08e&printer=1

Prozac Nation? Is the Party Over?
Fri Aug 20,11:53 AM ET
By Richard C. Morais

Nancy Hugo, a 57-year-old housewife in Corvallis, Ore., had recently been prescribed the antidepressant Zoloft by her internist when she found herself in the bathroom, looking at a Bic shaver and wondering if she could get the blade
out of its plastic. In the living room she zeroed in on a pair of long scissors she had inherited from her grandmother. "I kept on wanting to pick them up and gouge my eye out," she recalls. Trying to occupy her mind at the computer, she fought the "urge to slam the phone into the side of my head."
 
About to Crash?

America's top-selling antidepressants could soon experience a downturn. Now off-patent, Prozac is no longer a bestseller.

Top five antidepressants

Drug Manufacturer 2003 sales*($bil)

Zoloft Pfizer $2.9

XR Effexor Wyeth 2.1

Wellbutrin SR GlaxoSmithkline 1.8

Paxil GlaxoSmithkline 1.5

Celexa Forest Laboratories 1.4

*Wholesale prices of drugs, not including mail service. Source: IMS Health.

Hugo survived the weekend; her drug doses were reduced and she was switched to antidepressant Paxil. This time, however, she experienced akathisia'a medicine-induced agitation and restlessness that some patients on antidepressants describe as the feeling of bugs crawling through the skin'and an extreme bout of
mania. "What spooks me now is that I thought I'd recognize when I was having trouble with the medications," she says. "But it was a week later before I realized, 'Oh, my God, what have I done?'"

Both Zoloft and Paxil are Prozac-type drugs known as SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Do such drugs cause mania and violent obsessions? That question is now being debated in many a doctor's office, court of law and
legislature. Whatever the correct scientific answer, the mere fact that the question is being asked represents a new phase in the evolution of SSRI medications and a threat to the well-being of the companies that make the drugs.

Since SSRIs arrived 16 years ago with the introduction of Eli Lilly & Co.'s Prozac, the category has expanded into a collection of blockbusters for Lilly, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithkline and other manufacturers. All told, the antidepressants category accounts for $14 billion a year of wholesale revenues just in the
U.S., according to IMS Health. In the first five months of this year American doctors wrote 46 million prescriptions for antidepressants, up 5% over the same period last year, according to NDCHealth. Yes, this is a Prozac nation. Dr.
Mark Vanden Bosch, an anesthesiologist at the Berkshire Medical Center in Pittsfield, Mass., who must be alert to drugs that might interact with anesthesia, estimates that a third of the patients checking into his hospital, for a wide
range of operations, are on antidepressants.

When Prozac was new, it was heralded (in, for example, the 1993 hit Listening to Prozac) as a wonder drug with little in the way of side effects. The few naysayers were for the most part fringe sorts like Scientologists. Now a giant
pall of misgiving is descending on SSRIs: Tearful family members are telling their congressmen how the drugs caused their children to commit suicide; Britain has limited their use in children; a suit by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer claims GlaxoSmithkline suppressed evidence that the drugs don't work in children and can endanger them; and the Food & Drug Administration is studying whether it should mandate ominous warning labels.

It's a pattern we have seen before in psychiatric drugs, says Harvard Medical School (news - web sites) psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen. A new class of chemicals creates a wave of euphoria in the medical community, while a handful of
celebrities (such as, in the case of SSRIs, Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes) swear by the new pills. A decade later reports of side effects accumulate and doctors begin to have second thoughts. Another decade later the world discovers a new miracle drug and the old one is relegated to niche uses. It happened to the major tranquilizers (like Thorazine) introduced in the 1950s, and it happened to supposedly less addictive and relatively side-effect-free substitutes for morphine. Dr. Glenmullen made this point about the SSRIs five years ago in his
book Prozac Backlash. He looks prescient now.

The second-guessing about SSRIs comes just as the earliest patents have expired, or are about to. The combination of potentially dampened prescription volume and new price competition could bring a lot of disappointment to investors
in Pfizer and its competitors.

The touchiest issue is whether SSRIs provoke suicides in children. Eric Harris was on Solvay Pharmaceuticals' SSRI, Luvox, when he and Dylan Klebold went on their murder-suicide rampage through Columbine High School in Littleton,
Colo. in 1999. Did the powerful drug push him into a dangerous mental zone, like the one Hugo experienced, or was it unable to stop what was already there? It's hard to know. (A Columbine survivor's lawsuit against Solvay was settled out
of court, without any admission of liability, and resulted in a token contribution from Solvay to a charity.) The British health authorities have ruled that the side effects of SSRI antidepressants other than Prozac put children at
an unacceptable risk of suicide. The National Institute of Mental Health in the U.S., in contrast, says that "some research" points to a drop in suicides among children since the drugs were introduced, "but it is not known if SSRIs are directly responsible."

"The suicides under SSRIs are violent," says Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, a group headquartered in New York City that is crusading for full disclosure of the drugs' side effects. "It's not like someone going into the bathroom and taking pills. It's jumping, knives, hanging. They're in pain. They're jumping out of their skins."

Glenmullen says he himself prescribes SSRIs when appropriate but is dismayed to see patients who have been prescribed antidepressants for every triviality, from nail-biting to boyfriend breakups. It is easy to see where overprescribing could become a habit. General practitioners, internists and family doctors are, at times, penalized by health insurers for making referrals to psychiatrists. These first-line doctors write 73% of all antidepressant scrips in America. Fact: We now spend more on mood-altering drugs for our children, including antidepressants, than we spend on antibiotics.

Harried GPs do not always discuss with their patients such possible problems as withdrawal symptoms on discontinuance or the need for ever-increasing doses as the drug's efficacy wears off. In 1997 C.W. Tillman, a county official in
Missouri, had an anxiety attack and was prescribed Paxil by his doctor; a few days later his adverse reactions included severe agitation, extreme sensitivity to light and noise, claustrophobia, diarrhea and vomiting. His doctor told him to stop taking the drug, let the symptoms clear up and start again. A month
later Tillman had descended into a deep depression and took an overdose. Tillman, subsequently diagnosed as bipolar and now the Web site editor of NAMI, the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, in Arlington, Va.'is grateful for SSRIs for eventually helping him manage his illness, but says doctors are undertrained in recognizing side effects.

The brain runs on a cocktail of feel-good chemical transmitters, among them adrenaline, serotonin and dopamine. Basically, serotonin flows across a synapse briefly, from one nerve cell to another, after which the cell that sent it out mops up the excess. SSRIs work by blocking the sending cell's ability to reabsorb the excess serotonin. Result: The receptors in the second cell get a prolonged bath of the feel-good juice. The miracle in this class of drug is that SSRIs are better tolerated than earlier antidepressants and less likely to be fatal in an overdose.

Now the downside: The brain adjusts to the artificial increase in serotonin with a compensatory drop in dopamine. No one knows the long-term effect of this drop in dopamine in the brain. "The gaping loophole in our drug safety
system," says Glenmullen, "is long-term safety. It takes decades for enough consumers to have had ill effects for problems to come to the authorities' attention." Pfizer, the manufacturer of Zoloft, says it carefully monitors safety after drugs are approved and shares that information with the FDA (news - web sites).

Doctors and patients have for some time been reporting mild tics and jerks in SSRI users. The tics are usually overlooked, but can develop into tardive dyskinesia (manifested by a freakish "involuntary tongue" that darts out of the mouth, twitching or "running" legs, jerking or wildly swinging arms and gagging). Do patients know they may be in for this? Knowing, they might, of course, still opt for medication. "A little discomfort is a small (price) to pay for a
normal level of happiness!" writes Archibald Hart in Unmasking Male Depression.

Thorazine, it turns out, creates similar side effects, but it was a while before doctors were aware of how frequently. Prescribed for everything from insomnia to anxiety, this type of tranquilizer was taken by an estimated 250
million worldwide. In 1973, at the 20-year mark, 2,000 cases of tics had been reported. Critics surfaced and were dismissed as alarmists. But by 1980 systematic studies using neurological screening tests discovered that 40% of all patients treated with the Thorazine class of tranquilizers had tics. Reclassified as
antipsychotics, the Thorazine-style drugs were given a long list of FDA warnings and are used today only for severe mental illness.

SSRI patients are also reporting memory loss. It's mostly anecdotal evidence at this point. But Harvard's Glenmullen says the reports of memory loss, tics and jerking side effects found in SSRI patients suggests to him the possibility of long-term brain damage. Is there a risk that, a decade hence, we will see an epidemic of Alzheimer's- or Parkinson's-like diseases? The regulators
haven't given enough thought to the possibility, he says.

Whatever the true hazards in SSRIs, there is no doubt that tort lawyers can make hay out of the situation. No overall litigation and settlement data are available on antidepressants (opponents claim pharma is settling cases quietly and sealing the records), and there are just the early signs of clustering activity'trial lawyers advertising for SSRI "victims," seminars and other legal teamwork'familiar to mass torts, but watch events gather pace.

"We went through a whole period of overprescribing SSRIs," says Jeffrey Kodroff, a Philadelphia lawyer suing Pfizer over Neurontin, an epilepsy drug. "When the market started getting to the point of saturation, the market started emphasizing juvenile use, also for the purpose of getting patent extensions. If the studies show they are not only not efficacious, but cause problems, you're going to see a big backlash in usage of SSRIs."

The New York Attorney General's suit against GlaxoSmithkline, filed in June, alleges that Glaxo committed fraud by suppressing or selectively quoting from clinical studies that showed Paxil to be no better, or even worse, than a dummy pill in treating children with depression. Spitzer has also requested documents from Forest Laboratories, maker of SSRIs Celexa and Lexapro. Glaxo says Spitzer's allegations are bunk; it never targeted kids.

To see what a successful Spitzer prosecution could provoke, look at what recently happened to Pfizer. Warner-Lambert's Neurontin was FDA approved for epilepsy, but the company, it was alleged, was encouraging doctors to prescribe it
for "off-label" uses like bipolar disorders. A whistle-blower triggered federal and state criminal investigations into the marketing, and this May Pfizer (which had subsequently acquired Warner-Lambert) settled with the government,
taking a $427 million pretax hit in criminal and civil fines.

Four days after the settlement the Teamsters Health & Welfare Fund of Philadelphia & Vicinity, joined by Aetna and the Alaska State Employees Association health benefits trust, filed class actions against Pfizer alleging, among other
things, that Warner-Lambert suppressed a Harvard Bipolar Research Program study finding that "patients did worse on Neurontin than those who were on a sugar pill." Two years after the study was suppressed, the Teamsters suit alleges,
"Neurontin accounted for $1.3 billion in sales, with over 80% of its use coming from nonapproved uses, such as treatment of bipolar disorder." Pfizer says it will "vigorously defend" itself against any suits following its Neurontin
settlement, and says "it is worth noting that those investigations did not result in a charge of fraud by Warner-Lambert."

A user of SSRIs for almost a decade, who says she can't wean herself off the drugs and spoke to us on the condition of anonymity, recently wrote her former Park Avenue psychiatrist: "I simply pray Glaxo follows the path of (Dow) Corning, who endangered women's lives with silicone implants they knew were dangerous. Bankruptcy."

Even if Pfizer, Glaxo and Lilly are right about the science, they could be on the wrong end of a tort suit. Look at the breast implant cases. Scientific studies showed that there was no connection between silicone and the autoimmune
diseases supposedly caused by it. But still the implant manufacturers had to spend billions of dollars to settle lawsuits.
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Offline Deborah

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FDA warning on SSRIs
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2004, 12:58:00 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/scien ... press.html
Antidepressant Study Seen to Back Expert
By GARDINER HARRIS
Published: August 20, 2004

A top government scientist who concluded last year that most antidepressants are too dangerous for children because of a suicide risk wrote in a memo this week that a new study confirms his findings.

The official, Dr. Andrew D. Mosholder, a senior epidemiologist at the Food and Drug Administration who assesses the safety of medicines, found last year that 22 studies showed that children given antidepressants were nearly twice as likely to become suicidal as those given placebos.

His bosses, however, strongly disagreed with his findings, kept his recommendations secret and initiated a new analysis.

In his memo, dated Monday, Dr. Mosholder said that the results of the new analysis, undertaken in part at Columbia University, matched his own. Though the two studies used different methods and different numbers, they came to similar conclusions, Dr. Mosholder wrote in the internal memo. A copy of the memo was made available to The New York Times.

In the new analysis, Paxil, which is manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline, and Effexor, made by Wyeth, have been found to be even more likely to lead children to become suicidal than Dr. Mosholder's original analysis found, his memo says.

The findings add to the debate over whether the government should ban prescribing the pills to children. Dr. Graham Emslie, a researcher whose studies of the drugs in depressed children have been paid for by both drug makers and the National Institutes of Health, said he still thinks the benefits of the medicines outweigh any risks.

"Limiting doctors' choices in treating depressed kids is not a good thing," Dr. Emslie said.

Officials at the Food and Drug Administration have struggled to explain why it has acted so differently from British health authorities, who last year banned the use of all antidepressants but Prozac in children.

The F.D.A. is scheduled to hold an advisory committee hearing on the issue next month. According to people inside and outside the agency, the F.D.A. may next week make public the results of the Columbia study.

The controversy had its start two years ago when Dr. Mosholder was reviewing data submitted by GlaxoSmithKline regarding studies of Paxil in children. Dr. Mosholder noticed that children given the pill suffered more emotional "lability" or vulnerability, than those given placebos. He asked the company for more specifics about what it meant by "lability."

In May 2003, the company submitted a new report showing that children given Paxil were more likely to become suicidal than those given placebos. Also, the drug did not improve their depression any better than the placebo.

Dr. Mosholder asked for similar data from other drug companies. By last fall, he was looking at the results of 22 studies involving 4,250 children. His analysis of the combined results suggested that children given the drugs were 1.89 times more likely to become suicidal than those given placebos. He recommended that the agency ban doctors from prescribing all but Prozac to children, the only pill that had proven beneficial against childhood depression.

His bosses, however, suppressed his report and hired researchers at Columbia to re-analyze the underlying data that Dr. Mosholder had used, saying that some events labeled by drug-company researchers as suicidal did not seem worrisome.

Though the original studies had identified just 108 suicidal-related adverse events, the Columbia researchers expanded their inquiry to include about 400 adverse events, many of which had been originally labeled as "accidental."

The risk of a suicidal event among those given antidepressants in the trials was 1.78, only slightly less than the risk Dr. Mosholder found.

A spokesman for the F.D.A. did not return phone messages. A spokesman for Wyeth said that Effexor is not approved for use in children. A spokeswoman for GlaxoSmithKline declined to comment.

Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, who has been pushing an investigation into the F.D.A.'s handling of the controversy, said through a spokeswoman that the new memo from Dr. Mosholder "underscores what my committee investigation is finding as far as the strength of Dr. Mosholder's original analysis about antidepressants and kids.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2004, 11:41:00 AM »
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2769397

Aug. 31, 2004, 1:01AM

Mom: My son isn't 'a homicidal maniac'
She says abuse, drug dosage may have driven boy to shoot his father
By ANDREW TILGHMAN and KEVIN MORAN
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle
Excerpts:
Sexual abuse by his father and an increased dosage of Prozac may have helped drive a 10-year-old boy to shoot and kill the father last week, the boy's mother and attorney contend.

"My son is not a homicidal maniac," said Deborah Geisler of Katy. ''I knew my son was angry with his father, but I never thought my son would see this as a way to handle the hopeless situation he thought he was in."

[Dr. Rick] Lohstroh, a 41-year-old emergency room doctor at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, was shot in the back Friday when he went to pick up his two sons at their mother's home in Katy.

Police say the 10-year-old boy climbed into the back of his father's sport utility vehicle, fired a pistol several times through the back of the driver's seat and then ran back inside the home.

Juvenile Court Judge Beverly Malazzo on Monday rejected a request from Geisler that the boy be released into her custody.

The judge ordered that the boy, whose name is not being released because of his age, remain in the Harris County juvenile detention facility at least until a hearing on Sept. 13.

A psychiatrist prescribed Prozac for the boy in early August after he was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, his mother said Sunday.

He started with a 10-milligram dose and gradually moved to higher doses, she said.

The week before the shooting, Geisler said, the boy started taking a once-a-week, time-release dosage of 90 milligrams. He took his second 90-milligram pill just hours before the shooting, she said.

The sexual abuse allegations could be central to the juvenile court case ahead, a lawyer for the 10-year-old said.

Attorney Chris Tritico said he also is looking into the possible impact of the medication.

"I don't know enough about the effects of Prozac on a 10-year-old to know what, if any, role it played," he said. "That will certainly be one of the things we'll be looking into."

Assistant District Attorney Helen Jackson said she urged the juvenile court judge to keep the older boy in a detention center because of the seriousness of the incident.

Under Texas law, children under 14 cannot be certified for trial as adults in criminal court.

Many juveniles are sentenced to incarceration with the Texas Youth Commission and released on their 18th birthdays. But even after reaching that point, Geisler's son could face up to 40 years in adult prison if he is convicted of murder and prosecutors seek to have him sentenced as an adult.

kevin.moran@chron.com, peggy.o'hare@chron.com
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #129 on: August 31, 2004, 12:04:00 PM »
Known side effect of *all* antidepressants.  If you're depressed and you have a violent plan to do something, and you just lack the energy to put your plan into action, when the antidepressant takes away your lack of energy and will to act, you can suddenly put your plan into action---and some do.

This is why antidepressants are not over the counter, and it's one of the things doctors are supposed to watch for *very* closely when they prescribe antidepressants to someone.

Killing someone who's raping you may actually be a semi-rational act, btw.  Too bad the kid didn't understand he had better choices to stop the abuse---or was boxed in to the point that he felt the people offering those "better choices" couldn't or wouldn't protect him if he came forward---I don't know which.

The point is that, yep, if you've got a plan to do violence to yourself or others and the only thing keeping you from doing it is the lack of will that comes with clinical depression, and your doctor gives you medicine that actually *works* to take away that depression, then yeah, you may go ahead and carry out your plan.

The drugs didn't "make you do it"---they just took away the depression that was keeping you from doing what you'd planned out or wanted to do already.

It's *very* important that someone who's depressed  who might have some kind of violent intent or plan be watched *very* closely in the first few weeks of taking *any* antidepressant to intercept these plans and work through what caused the plans.

Unfortunately, like any other violent plan people may form in their head and choose to do, you can't catch them all.  As long as he was being supervised closely by his pdoc, this slipped through the cracks.  If he *wasn't* being supervised closely, then the pdoc may have some liability.

If someone takes a bad fall and breaks some bones in their hands, are we going to *not* fix the hands because they might do something wrong with their hands when the bones have healed?

The only thing "wrong" with antidepressants in this case is that they actually *work*.

Unfortunately, not all things depression stops its  victims from doing are *good* things.

Timoclea
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #130 on: September 01, 2004, 12:27:00 AM »
I appreciate your opinion, but you are again presenting it as fact.

If I went in today and told the doctor I was having suicidal or homicidal thoughts I?d walk out with an rx for antidepressants. Now that tells me that there is an assumption, on the part of the consumer and the doctor, that these drugs are ?supposed? to ?cure? me of my ?depression? and ?dangerous? thoughts.

With all the homicides and suicides committed by people taking antidepressants, should we consider stiffer gun laws- no guns allowed in homes with a member who has suicidal or homicidal thoughts? And certainly not to any household with a member on antidepressants. Perhaps that will be the next phase in Bushs' initiative. It appears that the docs aren?t going to or physically can?t ?watch? their patients closely enough- the ol' 'window of loss' justification. You think patients, especially 10 year olds, tell their doctor, ?Oh by the way, I?ve been premeditating my father?s murder for a couple of months. He?s been raping me and no one seems to care or is willing to stop him?- assuming that is indeed the case.

Here's what doesn't make sense to me:

You seem to say that when you are 'depressed' you are somehow unable to carry out your wishes to kill yourself or others, but then with the miracle of drugs you can follow through with your suicide or a murder.

That it's the disease, not the drug. How do we know that the antidepressants don?t elevate some beyond rational thought to a state of extreme euphoria- to a ?I don?t? give a damn? state of mind. Or, somehow interfer with their sense of right and wrong? There are accounts of people waking up with blood on their hands asking where they are. I don't think anyone knows all the many ways these drugs can effect people. Seems like a crap shoot at best.

And was this child 'clinically depressed'? The article stated depression and anxiety. Well, how might a 10 year old respond to a hostile environment, a bitter divorce, an abusive father.
Were drugs really in order for his fear and grief? Did he have a tendency toward violence before the drugs? Did he really have a 'mental illness' or was he a 10 year old who wanted the pain to stop; and who apparently saw his dad as the source of that pain; and out of the desire to survive had the courage to stop it in the only way his immature and distressed mind could conjure up. If his dad was from Iraq the kid wouldn't be labeled with a dx, he'd be honored as a hero for killing another terrorist.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #131 on: September 01, 2004, 11:46:00 PM »
This site is by-far the most middle of the road site I've found. I'm not in total agreement, but I like the way they think and combine common sense with scientific research. So far, I would include it as something any person who believes they are 'depressed' should read. I reserve the right to change my mind when I'm done reading it.

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/
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« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2004, 10:33:00 AM »
http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story ... 5610c.html

ABC show to discuss Pittman case
By Jason Cato The Herald
(Published September 2, 2004)

Excerpts:
Less than two weeks after landing on the front page of The New York Times, the story of a boy charged with murdering his grandparents in Chester County will be told Friday on "Good Morning America." The show can be seen locally on cable Channel 4 from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. An ABC employee said the segment could be four to five minutes long and should appear around 7:30 a.m., barring any major breaking news that could pre-empt the appearance.

The trio plans to discuss what they believe, and will try to prove in court, is that an adverse reaction to antidepressant medication caused Pittman to allegedly shoot and kill his grandparents in their rural Chester County home in November 2001. Police say the boy shot Joe Frank Pittman and Joy Roberts Pittman both in the head while they were in bed and then set the house on fire before fleeing in a family vehicle. He was 12 at the time, but will be tried as an adult and could be sentenced to life in prison if convicted.

Over a five-week period prior to the killings, Pittman had been on Paxil and then Zoloft -- both of which are prescription antidepressants classified as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs.

Duprey said she's making the trip in order to get the word out about what the drugs did to her grandson.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration will hold a two-day hearing this month to release the findings of a months-long review of SSRIs and their potential to cause children and teens to become suicidal. It has been widely reported in recent weeks that the FDA's review will conclude that there is an increased risk of suicidal thoughts or behavior in children taking these drugs during company-sponsored clinical trials compared to children given a placebo.

Pittman's attorneys are seeking confidential Pfizer documents they say will help prove that Zoloft can produce side effects that include violence. The drug company denies this and is fighting the effort to have these materials made available. A hearing on the matter has not been scheduled.

Duprey believes the documents will prove that such problems exist with the drug and thinks it's unfair that the public has not been informed.
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« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2004, 03:05:00 PM »
Safety Reporting in Randomized Trials of Mental Health Interventions
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... 161/9/1692

Panagiotis N. Papanikolaou, M.D., Rachel Churchill, M.Sc., Kristian Wahlbeck, M.D., Ph.D., and John P.A. Ioannidis, M.D. The EU-PSI Project

OBJECTIVE: The authors aimed to evaluate the adequacy of the reporting of safety information in publications of randomized trials of
mental-health-related interventions.

METHOD: The authors randomly selected 200 entries from the PsiTri registry of mental-health-related controlled trials. This yielded 142 randomized
trials that were analyzed for adequacy and relative emphasis of their content on safety issues. They examined drug trials as well as trials of other types of interventions.

RESULTS: Across the 142 eligible trials, 103 involved drugs. Twenty-five of the 142 trials had at least 100 randomly chosen subjects and at least 50 subjects in a study arm. Among drug trials, only 21.4% had adequate reporting of clinical adverse events, and only 16.5% had adequate reporting of laboratory-determined toxicity, while 32.0% reported both the numbers and the reasons for withdrawals due to toxicity in each arm.

On average, drug trials devoted 1/10 of a page in their results sections to safety, and 58.3% devoted more space to the names and affiliations of authors than to safety. None of the trials of nondrug interventions had adequate or even partially adequate reporting of either clinical adverse events or laboratory-determined toxicity. In multivariate modeling, long-term trials and trials conducted in the United States devoted even less space to safety, while schizophrenia trials devoted more space to safety than did trials in other areas.

CONCLUSIONS: Safety reporting is largely neglected across trials of mental-health-related interventions, thus hindering the assessment of
risk-benefit ratios for rational decision making in mental health care.
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« Reply #134 on: September 06, 2004, 12:23:00 PM »
Excerpts:
FDA considers drugging healthy kids for science

WASHINGTON (AP) ? Is it ethical in the name of science to give a healthy child as young as 9 a controlled substance? That's the dilemma facing the Food and Drug Administration's Pediatric Ethics subcommittee at its first-ever meeting on Sept. 10. The research, proposed by the National Institute of Mental Health, includes healthy children among 9- to 18-year-olds who would receive a single 10 mg. dose of dextroamphetamine.

The hoped-for payoff for research: A better understanding of how healthy brains work differently from those of children diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

The payoff for families: $570.

Dextroamphetamine, the active ingredient in such drugs as Dexedrine and Adderall, is prescribed commonly to increase attention span and calm restlessness. Doses vary with children's needs, with daily doses as little as 5 mg. or as much as 30 mg.

Judith L. Rapoport, chief of child psychology at NIMH, within the National Institutes of Health, conducted a similar trial 20 years ago. The same stimulant was given to children at a higher dose. Researchers looked only at how the stimulant changed children's behavior as they performed tasks. The stimulant improved attention span in the children, regardless of whether they had ADHD.

The new trial would add magnetic resonance images to map potential differences in brain activation patterns.

While Rapoport's trial is little different from the earlier one, review boards that balance risk vs. scientific gain have changed dramatically in 20 years.

Indeed, an NIH review panel met twice and was unable to reach a consensus whether risk to healthy volunteers would be too high in the new study. They kicked the sensitive matter over the FDA's new pediatrics ethics subcommittee.

The study would involve 14 children with ADHD, 14 healthy children, 12 pairs of identical twins and 12 pairs of fraternal twins. As the children completed specified tasks, their brain activity would be captured by MRIs.

Comparing twins ? one with ADHD, the other normal ? helps researchers tease out genetic explanations of differences in response to treatment.

In September 2003, an NIMH panel that reviewed the proposal's scientific merit called the program an excellent submission. The panel noted that it would be the first ADHD study to compare twins, which has been useful in past studies on schizophrenia.

The panel that considers a safety of human subjects, however, was troubled by the youngest tested children's age and the potential for coercion because each participant would be paid $570 for the 11-hour study.

The major stumbling block was determined to be the risk of giving a class 2 controlled substance to healthy children, which some fretted might breed future substance abuse.

Children in the 1980 NIH trial had no increased risk of drug abuse in the five years after the trial ended, researchers say in the study protocol.

The most common side effects among healthy children given a single dose of the stimulant in past experiments was temporary insomnia and poor appetite. One brain-damaged child exposed to the medication suffered hallucinations.

Many ethicists expect the FDA subcommittee to use a primary litmus test: Does taking the stimulant pose more than a minimal increase to risks that healthy children face in everyday life?

Pearl O'Rourke, who oversees human research affairs, interviewed the heads of six review boards at Massachusetts General and Brigham and Women's Hospital.

"Five said they would not approve this study. And all five said, 'But we wish we could,'" O'Rourke said during a March 3 NIH discussion.

O'Rourke acknowledged that the review boards struggle with murky federal regulations, tightening case law, financing agencies that prefer pediatric studies and the threat of negative media coverage.

"I live in dread fear of what's going to be on the front page of the paper," she told the audience. "So, when I heard this, three things hit my mind: Kids, ohmigod! Psychiatric disease. And a class 2 drug."

The FDA panel could simply approve the plan if it should find it carried great scientific weight, said Dr. Douglas Diekema, director of medical ethics at Children's Hospital in Seattle.

New Jersey attorney Alan Milstein said that would be the wrong call.

Milstein, who represented the family of an 18-year-old whose death in 1999 spurred greater federal oversight of gene therapy trials, pointed to a recent Maryland Supreme Court ruling. The court held that exposing healthy children to
higher-than-minimum risk in a medical study is unethical.

"They can't do this study. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why they can't do it," Milstein said. "I can't believe that anybody is going to say it's ethical to do this. It's not even a close call."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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