FDA warning on SSRIs

[Deborah]

***Yeah, Prozac made her do it---twice. It reached right back in time and made her do it a couple of years before she was on it. What a nasty unnatural evil *chemical*.

Tim,
Are you following this thread or just dropping in to share your assumptions? Either way, you missed an important piece- quoted from the original article:

The depression started in 1996 after Hall's father died, Campbell told jurors. She sought help from a psychiatrist, who prescribed, in succession, high doses of the antidepressants Luvox, Lexapro and Zoloft. Hall's husband,
Jimmy, testified that after his wife started taking Zoloft on Feb. 3, 2004, she began sleeping during the day and cleaning the house in manic bursts in the middle of the night.

A violent person, drug induced mania? Either way, so much for the efficacy of the drugs and 'less is better' treatment model and 'being monitored closely by a pdoc".

That's all good, truth is, it ain't happenin' for the average Joe- people who didn't become psychology graduates in search of an explanation for their mental state and formulate good questions for their doctors and monitor their own symptoms.

[Paul]

Deborah,

You where comfortable posting:

Posted: 2005-06-09 05:17:00    *Thursday Evenings 5-6pm PST: Annie Armen Live on World Talk Radio*

Tonight: June 09, 2005 From 5-6pm PST
AAL Series: Dangers of Psychiatric Drugs Part 12

Topic: Psychiatric Drugs Survivor of 36 years SPEAKS OUT WITH DRUG FREE HEALING ACTION NATIONWIDE!

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---

When I mentioned Safe Harbor in the past you
ignored it. This is why I asked the question.

You are either advocating chaos, or not. If
you are anti medication then you should be
supporting those that are trying to heal
mental illness with non medications.

You appear to selectively support certain
people. In general you just put down anything
organized in mental health. You apparently
have made a decision not to involve yourself
in the administration of public mental health,
and perhaps private insurance mental health
programs.

You have Antigen fooled that you are knowledgeble
regarding mental health but really you just
put down treatments and put down professionals.

You are quick to research gadflies and fringe
experts. You are comfortable in calling Scientology a religion, when the rest of the
population here and abroad refer to Scientology as a cult.

Your solutions to mental health are to criticize
treatments that have helped many.

To me, it appears you have no involvment with the seriously and persistantly mentally ill. If you did you wouldn't be making your lame comments.

Anarchy is easy, helping the systems that are designed to help people is work. Your are just a useless gadfly that have people like Antigen fooled because you present yourself as knowledgeble.

If someone followed your advice, or lack thereof they would probable become one of the jailed mentally ill, or reinstitutionalized, that should be in recovery instead.

Stating what your agenda really is would stop hurting those that are unsure of making informed choices.

Buying into conspiracy theories is easy, it is not knowledge. Listening to "coast to coast" at night doesn't make someone a consultant.

Picking apart little problems in a big system is not helping it is just cherry picking, not solution based.

Safe Harbor was interested in the taxpayer approved fund for improving the mental health system in California. I spoke to the president and one of the board members. They declined furthur help when I let them know that only evidence based practices are to be funded. Apparently they did not have proof that their non-pharma solutions worked or they would have asked for money.

If you don't understand what I am saying to you, please ask for clarifications. If you want to flame my comments then you will just be revealing yourself as a pseudo expert.

I think Timoclea has taken the time, over and over, again to explain to you the benefits of the standard protocols for treating serious and persistant mental illness.

It is all about choice. Participate and you will find out. 87% of the patients in San Diego County mental health programs are on meds, the other 13% are not, by choice. They receive other treatments by their own choice, it is as simple and as non-conspiracy based as that.

Your are either going to help people, or not.

Frankly I don't see your contributions here as valuable. That is a bummer since you have the host recommending you as knowing about mental health. This makes you influencial, it does come with responsibility. Please use your responsibility wisely, or say nothing more.

Paul

[Deborah]

Bless your heart Paul. You put together a pretty decent argument? If any of it were accurate, that is. I post from many sources but here?s two that mention Safe Harbor..

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#15726
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#95178

Would it please you if I posted all their newsletters and press releases?

***You are either advocating chaos, or not. If
you are anti medication then you should be
supporting those that are trying to heal
mental illness with non medications.

Paul, look through these threads and then explain what you based that comment on

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5474
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#15144
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#15250
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#15260
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#26074
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26084
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#28420
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =110#31298
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#53396
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#64392
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#86638

***You appear to selectively support certain
people.

And you appear to do piss-poor research and make unfounded claims. In case you didn?t read the links I provided, I cite MANY sources.

You are accurate. I have  ?made a decision not to involve yourself in the administration of public mental health, and perhaps private insurance mental health programs?. Rather, I am not interested in PUBLIC mental health.

***You have Antigen fooled that you are knowledgeble regarding mental health but really you just put down treatments and put down professionals.

I?ll let Ginger speak to that, but I will ask, are you suggesting that we?re in competition to ?convince? Ginger, one way or another? LMAO  Are you vested in swaying HER opinion? What do you think would change?

***You are quick to research gadflies and fringe
experts.

Most of the information I share is from degreed professionals in the field that have chosen to speak out about the fraudulent nature of the industry. Who better qualified than insiders?

***You are comfortable in calling Scientology a religion, when the rest of the population here and abroad refer to Scientology as a cult.

Paul, the government gave them their religious status, not I. Work in the ?system? to change that if you don?t like it. In the meantime, I suppose they will act as and have all the benefits allowed other religions. Personally, I don?t subscribe to any organized religion, and feel they?re all cults- in the broad definition of the word- all selling their personal brand of fear, whether that be hell or space aliens or evil entities. They should all pay taxes like any other business.

***Your solutions to mental health are to criticize treatments that have helped many.

Now, did you think before you wrote that? Or just another comment with no basis in reality? Truth being, we don?t know HOW many have been ?helped?. We?re beginning to see how many have been harmed.

***To me, it appears you have no involvment with
the seriously and persistantly mentally ill. If you did you wouldn't be making your lame comments.

No. I don?t, and don?t care to. But, many that I have cited do or have, and I value their opinions and insight.

***Anarchy is easy, helping the systems that are
designed to help people is work. Your are just a
useless gadfly that have people like Antigen fooled because you present yourself as knowledgeble.

And you are a mindless idiot with no original thought. I present information, and sometimes my opinion. I opposed ANY form of forced screening or treatment for ANYTHING. I respect people?s right to choose to use drugs or not.  I trust that people can read, analyze, and form their own opinions. YOU apparently don?t.

***If someone followed your advice, or lack thereof they would probable become one of the jailed mentally ill, or reinstitutionalized, that should be in recovery instead.

What advice, specifically Paul, are you referring to? Are you implying that I have ?practiced without a license??  If you review the info I?ve shared you?ll see that I do not promote any one type of alternative. When I find something that sounds reasonable or that has been helpful, I share it.

***Stating what your agenda really is would stop hurting those that are unsure of making informed choices.

Get over it Paul. Stop obsessing about me having a hidden agenda. I have stated numerous times (and this will be the last time I say it to you- I have better ways to spend my time). I advocate full disclosure, access to alternatives, and FULLY informed decisions.

***Buying into conspiracy theories is easy, it is not knowledge. Listening to "coast to coast" at night doesn't make someone a consultant.

Paul, opponents are not ?conspiracists?. That?s propaganda and what you?d like others to believe.

***Picking apart little problems in a big system is not helping it is just cherry picking, not solution based.

Look Paul, You may not be aware of this, because all you hear, or listen to, is what the APA etal has to say, but many have (and still do) try to make changes in the system. But, that?s like trying to encourage the government to implement pro-human policies OR telling survivors that they can work with programs to make them better. LOL

***Safe Harbor was interested in the taxpayer approved fund for improving the mental health system in California. I spoke to the president and one of the board members. They declined furthur help when I let them know that only
evidence based practices are to be funded. Apparently they did not have proof that their non-pharma solutions worked or they would have asked for money.

Well, what can I say, except that I don?t feel like there is any evidence that drugs ?cure? anything, that ?mental illness? is genetic, that drugs are necessary to live a good life. And there is so much fraud occurring in drug research and at the FDA, that I personally wouldn?t believe any results (evidence?) of those studies. Studies are not objective or unbiased.
So, It?s still not clear to me why you asked the original question:
?I am curious as to why you are posting this information for your Fornits contribution, but when I mentioned Safe Harbor's recent Non-Pharma conference you ignored it??

Let me ask it this way- how did you EXPECT me to respond? Did you feel you needed a particular response from me in order to share what you finally divulged? There won?t be any ?evidence? (or very little) for alternatives because those who have the money to fund research don?t stand to gain from the results.

***If you don't understand what I am saying to you, please ask for clarifications. If you want to flame my comments then you will just be revealing yourself as a pseudo expert.

Pauly, only YOU perceive me as presenting myself as a ?pseudo expert?. I do think it says something that you are so viciously attacking and slandering a person who is sharing information and has formulated her own opinions.
 
***I think Timoclea has taken the time, over and
over, again to explain to you the benefits of the
standard protocols for treating serious and persistant mental illness.

And unnecessarily. I was a psych student, but lost interest. I am well aware of the drill. I happen to be a target because I have presented opposing information for others to consider. You both seem terrified of people considering anything but the status quo, and have a vested interest in people considering only what you believe.

***It is all about choice. Participate and you will find out. 87% of the patients in San Diego County mental health programs are on meds, the other 13% are not, by choice. They receive other treatments by their own choice, it is as simple and as non-conspiracy based as that.

Only in your dreams Pauly,  is it ?about choice? for the average person. No, the average person does not know they have choices and are not told the truth about research or the potential side effects of the drugs their prescribed. Heard the latest.. not a psych drug (specifically anyway)? it?s coming out that VIAGRA has caused some folks to go blind. Lordy, lordy. Hope the good sex they had in the interim was worth it.

***Frankly I don't see your contributions here as valuable.

You?re entitled to that opinion, and to attempt to discredit the information I have shared. If you want to be effective, why not attack the opinions of the ?pros? I have cited, instead of me?

***That is a bummer since you have the host
recommending you as knowing about mental health.

She might have a few choice words for your assumption, or not. I think the only thing she?s said remotely related to that is to appreciate the info I shared. And, what of it. Do you think she?d delete the info I?ve shared if she disagreed? Not here.

***This makes you influencial, it does come with
responsibility. Please use your responsibility wisely, or say nothing more.

LMAO  Paul, you can?t be serious!?  And from what authority do you make that demand and expect me to comply? You are not my authority buddy. Talk about delusions! I?ve known all along that it was YOUR agenda to silence me. Oh well, that?s not how it works here or in the real world Pauly. Deal.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-06-09 12:21:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Yeah, Prozac made her do it---twice. It reached right back in time and made her do it a couple of years before she was on it. What a nasty unnatural evil *chemical*.



Tim,

Are you following this thread or just dropping in to share your assumptions? Either way, you missed an important piece- quoted from the original article:



The depression started in 1996 after Hall's father died, Campbell told jurors. She sought help from a psychiatrist, who prescribed, in succession, high doses of the antidepressants Luvox, Lexapro and Zoloft. Hall's husband,

Jimmy, testified that after his wife started taking Zoloft on Feb. 3, 2004, she began sleeping during the day and cleaning the house in manic bursts in the middle of the night.



A violent person, drug induced mania? Either way, so much for the efficacy of the drugs and 'less is better' treatment model and 'being monitored closely by a pdoc".



That's all good, truth is, it ain't happenin' for the average Joe- people who didn't become psychology graduates in search of an explanation for their mental state and formulate good questions for their doctors and monitor their own symptoms.

"

I've followed it.  She had preexisting violent tendencies and *someone*--whether her, her husband, or her pdoc, or all three--was criminally negligent.

Many people are mentally ill.  Few of those are violent.  Even among the psychotic, the violent are a minority--and the psychotic are a small minority of the mentally ill.  This woman's history of violence was something *about her*.  Did her pdoc know, I wonder, or was that kept from him?  Again, malpractice, or negligence--on the part of *someone*.

Look at the number of successful medical malpractice suits annually in the US.

Look at the number of people who get bad results and *don't* win their malpractice lawsuit either because their bad result came from being the sad statistic (a bad roll of the dice), or because they were negligent or did something grossly stupid.

There will always be a statistical percentage of bad doctors, bad rolls of the dice, or stupid people.

No treatment has a zero rate of serious adverse effects.  The rate can be very small, but it won't be zero.

If you demand zero incidents of medical malpractice for all other doctors, as you do for the doctors who specialize in psychiatry, then we will have zero doctors---it's the only way to reduce incidents of malpractice to zero.

You demand zero incidence of pdoc malpractice because you're an extremist on this issue, I've referred people to the thread where we had this out to demonstrate you're an extremist on this issue, and don't need to say anymore.

The problem with Utopian visions is that they make the perfect the enemy of the good.  Which is precisely what you do on this issue.

Yes, I've followed the case, referring people to our thread still applies.

You're going to say you *don't* demand zero incidents of pdoc malpractice---but your history shows that that's exactly what you do.  I'll let readers search your posts on this and judge for themselves whether I'm exaggerating or being fair.

I really only dropped back in to say that yes, I've followed the case---as my earlier posts in threads about it show.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

I did a Fornits search using Safe Harbor. I didn't think it necessary to use their URL. I am wrong,
sorry. I am glad you post their info.

I am glad you have no experience personally with mental illness. It shows.

Lots of people took some psych clases, get over it.

I have two mentally ill roomates. I chose them. One on meds, the other still on the couch since
Jan. 1st, out of fear of sleeping in bedrooms. She asked to live with me because I don't influence people on way or the other. I just give them the most legitimate info on any choice, or all choice,  that they are interested in, and that I know to provide.

If you don't think Ginger is influencial on Fornits then that is your opinion, nothing else.

What I do must be pretty obvious by now.

When I scanned your responses to Timoclea I just got fed up with your slandering other potential treatments. That is what bothers me. You are not impartial. Period!

That is what hurts people on making choices.

I am tired of your biased posts, period.

Ginger, or Antigen, does not prevent anyone from posting and that is wonderful ... I hope for an unbiased quest for knowledge for all. Furthurmore I hope that all inherint biases are either obvious, understood or explained and that the bottom line is no slander and no influencing anyone deciding on any medical treatment.

It is all just information, isn't it?


I did not think to put Bless your heart Paul. You put together a pretty decent argument? If any of it were accurate, that is. I post from many sources but here?s two that mention Safe Harbor..

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#15726
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#95178

Would it please you if I posted all their newsletters and press releases?

***You are either advocating chaos, or not. If
you are anti medication then you should be
supporting those that are trying to heal
mental illness with non medications.

Paul, look through these threads and then explain what you based that comment on

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5474
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#15144
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#15250
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#15260
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#26074
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#26084
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#28420
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =110#31298
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#53396
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#64392
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#86638

***You appear to selectively support certain
people.

And you appear to do piss-poor research and make unfounded claims. In case you didn?t read the links I provided, I cite MANY sources.

You are accurate. I have ?made a decision not to involve yourself in the administration of public mental health, and perhaps private insurance mental health programs?. Rather, I am not interested in PUBLIC mental health.

***You have Antigen fooled that you are knowledgeble regarding mental health but really you just put down treatments and put down professionals.

I?ll let Ginger speak to that, but I will ask, are you suggesting that we?re in competition to ?convince? Ginger, one way or another? LMAO Are you vested in swaying HER opinion? What do you think would change?

***You are quick to research gadflies and fringe
experts.

Most of the information I share is from degreed professionals in the field that have chosen to speak out about the fraudulent nature of the industry. Who better qualified than insiders?

***You are comfortable in calling Scientology a religion, when the rest of the population here and abroad refer to Scientology as a cult.

Paul, the government gave them their religious status, not I. Work in the ?system? to change that if you don?t like it. In the meantime, I suppose they will act as and have all the benefits allowed other religions. Personally, I don?t subscribe to any organized religion, and feel they?re all cults- in the broad definition of the word- all selling their personal brand of fear, whether that be hell or space aliens or evil entities. They should all pay taxes like any other business.

***Your solutions to mental health are to criticize treatments that have helped many.

Now, did you think before you wrote that? Or just another comment with no basis in reality? Truth being, we don?t know HOW many have been ?helped?. We?re beginning to see how many have been harmed.

***To me, it appears you have no involvment with
the seriously and persistantly mentally ill. If you did you wouldn't be making your lame comments.

No. I don?t, and don?t care to. But, many that I have cited do or have, and I value their opinions and insight.

***Anarchy is easy, helping the systems that are
designed to help people is work. Your are just a
useless gadfly that have people like Antigen fooled because you present yourself as knowledgeble.

And you are a mindless idiot with no original thought. I present information, and sometimes my opinion. I opposed ANY form of forced screening or treatment for ANYTHING. I respect people?s right to choose to use drugs or not. I trust that people can read, analyze, and form their own opinions. YOU apparently don?t.

***If someone followed your advice, or lack thereof they would probable become one of the jailed mentally ill, or reinstitutionalized, that should be in recovery instead.

What advice, specifically Paul, are you referring to? Are you implying that I have ?practiced without a license?? If you review the info I?ve shared you?ll see that I do not promote any one type of alternative. When I find something that sounds reasonable or that has been helpful, I share it.

***Stating what your agenda really is would stop hurting those that are unsure of making informed choices.

Get over it Paul. Stop obsessing about me having a hidden agenda. I have stated numerous times (and this will be the last time I say it to you- I have better ways to spend my time). I advocate full disclosure, access to alternatives, and FULLY informed decisions.

***Buying into conspiracy theories is easy, it is not knowledge. Listening to "coast to coast" at night doesn't make someone a consultant.

Paul, opponents are not ?conspiracists?. That?s propaganda and what you?d like others to believe.

***Picking apart little problems in a big system is not helping it is just cherry picking, not solution based.

Look Paul, You may not be aware of this, because all you hear, or listen to, is what the APA etal has to say, but many have (and still do) try to make changes in the system. But, that?s like trying to encourage the government to implement pro-human policies OR telling survivors that they can work with programs to make them better. LOL

***Safe Harbor was interested in the taxpayer approved fund for improving the mental health system in California. I spoke to the president and one of the board members. They declined furthur help when I let them know that only
evidence based practices are to be funded. Apparently they did not have proof that their non-pharma solutions worked or they would have asked for money.

Well, what can I say, except that I don?t feel like there is any evidence that drugs ?cure? anything, that ?mental illness? is genetic, that drugs are necessary to live a good life. And there is so much fraud occurring in drug research and at the FDA, that I personally wouldn?t believe any results (evidence?) of those studies. Studies are not objective or unbiased.
So, It?s still not clear to me why you asked the original question:
?I am curious as to why you are posting this information for your Fornits contribution, but when I mentioned Safe Harbor's recent Non-Pharma conference you ignored it??

Let me ask it this way- how did you EXPECT me to respond? Did you feel you needed a particular response from me in order to share what you finally divulged? There won?t be any ?evidence? (or very little) for alternatives because those who have the money to fund research don?t stand to gain from the results.

***If you don't understand what I am saying to you, please ask for clarifications. If you want to flame my comments then you will just be revealing yourself as a pseudo expert.

Pauly, only YOU perceive me as presenting myself as a ?pseudo expert?. I do think it says something that you are so viciously attacking and slandering a person who is sharing information and has formulated her own opinions.

***I think Timoclea has taken the time, over and
over, again to explain to you the benefits of the
standard protocols for treating serious and persistant mental illness.

And unnecessarily. I was a psych student, but lost interest. I am well aware of the drill. I happen to be a target because I have presented opposing information for others to consider. You both seem terrified of people considering anything but the status quo, and have a vested interest in people considering only what you believe.

***It is all about choice. Participate and you will find out. 87% of the patients in San Diego County mental health programs are on meds, the other 13% are not, by choice. They receive other treatments by their own choice, it is as simple and as non-conspiracy based as that.

Only in your dreams Pauly, is it ?about choice? for the average person. No, the average person does not know they have choices and are not told the truth about research or the potential side effects of the drugs their prescribed. Heard the latest.. not a psych drug (specifically anyway)? it?s coming out that VIAGRA has caused some folks to go blind. Lordy, lordy. Hope the good sex they had in the interim was worth it.

***Frankly I don't see your contributions here as valuable.

You?re entitled to that opinion, and to attempt to discredit the information I have shared. If you want to be effective, why not attack the opinions of the ?pros? I have cited, instead of me?

***That is a bummer since you have the host
recommending you as knowing about mental health.

She might have a few choice words for your assumption, or not. I think the only thing she?s said remotely related to that is to appreciate the info I shared. And, what of it. Do you think she?d delete the info I?ve shared if she disagreed? Not here.

***This makes you influencial, it does come with
responsibility. Please use your responsibility wisely, or say nothing more.

LMAO Paul, you can?t be serious!? And from what authority do you make that demand and expect me to comply? You are not my authority buddy. Talk about delusions! I?ve known all along that it was YOUR agenda to silence me. Oh well, that?s not how it works here or in the real world Pauly. Deal.

[Paul]

[I forgot to log in for my initial response]

I did a Fornits search using Safe Harbor. I didn't think it necessary to use their URL. I am wrong,
sorry. I am glad you post their info.

I am glad you have no experience personally with mental illness. It shows.

Lots of people took some psych clases, get over it.

I have two mentally ill roomates. I chose them. One on meds, the other still on the couch since
Jan. 1st, out of fear of sleeping in bedrooms. She asked to live with me because I don't influence people on way or the other. I just give them the most legitimate info on any choice, or all choice, that they are interested in, and that I know to provide.

If you don't think Ginger is influencial on Fornits then that is your opinion, nothing else.

What I do must be pretty obvious by now.

When I scanned your responses to Timoclea I just got fed up with your slandering other potential treatments. That is what bothers me. You are not impartial. Period!

That is what hurts people on making choices.

I am tired of your biased posts, period.

Ginger, or Antigen, does not prevent anyone from posting and that is wonderful ... I hope for an unbiased quest for knowledge for all. Furthurmore I hope that all inherint biases are either obvious, understood or explained and that the bottom line is no slander and no influencing anyone deciding on any medical treatment.

It is all just information, isn't it?

[Deborah]

My presumption is that the family had a lack of effective communication/negotiation skills, owned guns, and were faced with a major family dispute. Both incidents she was on psych drugs. And what of the brother? What we know is that they were both gun owners and he often threatened to use his. The info I?ve read does seem to indicate that it was self-defense, even if she ?over-reacted?. I can?t say that I wouldn?t have done the same thing. I just might have waited until he came back with his gun in his hand. And perhaps both would have benefited from some counseling and social skills training.

Is it the responsibility of the husband or the woman (or anyone)  to know what is important to report to a pdoc? How would they know what was important? Would ANY patient knowingly ?withhold? that they had ?violent tendencies?? Why? She/anyone might assume that if the drug helped with depression that it would also have a positive affect on anger- and that?s if the patient perceives him/herself as having a ?problem? with anger/violence. Did the pdoc ask about ?violent tendencies?? Did s/he educate family members on what to report? If the pdoc had known, what would s/he have done differently? Have all the guns removed from her home?
Her rx had been changed three times since ?99.

***You demand zero incidence of pdoc malpractice because you're an extremist on this issue

Mute point Tim. I have NEVER ?demanded? that there should be ZERO accidents or adverse reactions- as you say, humanly impossible. But while on the topic, yeh, I think there are way too many adverse reactions occurring and not nearly enough caution and ?less is better?. The only thing ?extreme? here is your desperate need for others to perceive me as an extremist and the chasm between our opinions/preferences.  

***I've referred people to the thread where we had this out to demonstrate you're an extremist on this issue, and don't need to say anymore.

Where ?we had this out??? That?s funny. What qualifies you to evaluate me? Most of what I post is experts? opinions, articles of ?adverse affects?, and testimonies. Rather than reply/refute the information, you?d rather attack me.  

***You're going to say you *don't* demand zero incidents of pdoc malpractice---but your history shows that that's exactly what you do. I'll let readers search your posts on this and judge for themselves whether I'm exaggerating or being fair.

That?s awful decent of ya, Tim. I have posted many articles relating to adverse reactions and deaths. I am not surprised that you interpret that as a ?demand for zero incidents?.  Who?s tracking them and where else are people going to hear about them? They certainly aren?t told by their doctors. And how will people know of the corruption in the industry and FDA?

[Deborah]

***I did a Fornits search using Safe Harbor.

That?s BS, Paul. All those links I posted come up for safe harbor. How do you think I found them? Their url isn?t necessary.

***I am glad you have no experience personally with mental illness. It shows.

Is that a compliment? Thanks for noticing.

***When I scanned your responses to Timoclea I just got fed up with your slandering other potential treatments. That is what bothers me. You are not impartial. Period!
I am tired of your biased posts, period.

Wah, wah, wah. I think that is evident. And?.
Slander? do you really think that is the appropriate choice of words for this situation?  

***It is all just information, isn't it?

Damn. I think that?s what I?ve been saying.

[Paul]

Deborah,

People who have no exposure to the mentally ill cause the most problems.

You are one of them.

If you want to get involved, help someone, help lot's of people who are ill. Stick by them, don't write them off. See what you learn.

Then start posting again.

Until then, please don't influence the mentally ill.
They are sick, as I have been in the past. It is too important to only have those with knowledge involved.

Let me know how you feel about all these issues when you have spent time with the depressed, the manic, the mixed, the delusional, the psychotic, the angry, the giddy - all of it. Get your nose dirty with those of us with the illness.

Learn.

Until then, have a great experience.

Paul

[Paul]

I am interested in folks on this list who have been influenced in their choice of treatments, including none at all by Deborah.

Please let me know how you feel? Better, worse?

How do you feel about someone with no experience with mental illness being so outspoken and opinionated?

Thanks

[Paul]

http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/to ... 38&forum=9
>
>http://www.illinoisleader.com/opinion/o ... sp?c=17982
>
>
Commission is a front for Scientologists

In your article a few days ago about "compulsory" mental health screening, you cite the Citizens Commission on Human Rights. Many of your readers may not be aware that this group is a front for Scientology, a mind-control cult based in Los Angeles, California and Clearwater, Florida. They oppose everything in any way related to psychology, psychiatry, or drugs used for mental health, often exaggerating or misrepresenting statistics or the wording of legislation.

They're also a very dangerous bunch, which prevents me from giving you my name and city. A couple of my relatives were involved with them and managed to escape.

Name and town withheld

[Deborah]

Paul, you said:
Safe Harbor is having a non medication conference
in June. I offered to get the folks at Safe Harbor going with the Mental Health Services Act for funding, but they where not interested. I tried ...
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =40#102890   

Safe Harbor was interested in the taxpayer approved fund for improving the mental health system in California. I spoke to the president and one of the board members. They declined furthur help when I let them know that only evidence based practices are to be funded. Apparently they did not have proof that their non-pharma solutions worked or they would have asked for money.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 190#108648

****
Why would you "try? to set them up with MHSA funds if you knew the funds only go to ?evidence based practices?, or as Wendy understood, to ?government-run agencies??

How is "evidence based" defined? To your knowledge, is there any ?evidence based? alternative (non-drug) treatments, other than therapy?

I contacted Wendy at Safe Harbor and here is her response, which I post with her permission. As you will read, her understanding is that the funding had nothing to do with "evidence-based practices." :

Paul does not speak for Safe Harbor. He had suggested a possible funding source to myself and Dan Stradford, president of Safe Harbor. I personally checked out the government funding possibility; however, from what I found, it is only for government agencies, not private nonprofits like Safe Harbor. As the fundraiser for Safe Harbor, we of course, would love funding, but this idea suggested by Paul was a dead end unfortunately.

It has nothing to do with "evidence-based practices." (Paul never mentioned this to me personally. He simply sent me the URL's to check out.) This is government money for government-run agencies, which generally use drugs as a first practice. Safe Harbor is trying to change this of course, and move government agencies toward nondrug alternatives. There is some interest in the area, and we are continuing to push for nondrug treatments and practices.

For information about Safe Harbor, please check our Web site at AlternativeMentalHealth.com, contact me at safeharborproj@aol.com. Thanks.

Wendy Bolt
SAFE HARBOR
787 W. Woodbury Rd., #2
Altadena, CA  91001

[Deborah]

"When he didn't take his medication, she said he could quickly "flip-out," swear, and throw things."
Whether it was the wrong rx (after 10 yrs?) or withdrawal symptoms, another drug-related restraint fatality.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/ ... t=n061343A
June 13, 2005 - 17:31
Edmonton mom weeps at elevator fatality inquiry, recounts son's problems
JOHN COTTER
Excerpts:
EDMONTON (CP) - Kyle Young, who fell to his death down a courthouse elevator shaft after scuffling with guards, had been ON MEDICATION FOR SEVERE
BEHAVIOUR PROBLEMS FOR 10 YEARS AND HAD LIVED IN MORE THAN 30 GROUP HOMES, his mother said Monday.

Provincial court Judge Jerry LeGrandeur, who is presiding, heard in January that Young, a short boy who weighed 140 pounds, was handcuffed and shackled that fateful day when he was removed from a cell in the youth court cell block because he had been acting up.

Two guards, both over six feet tall and each weighing more than 200 pounds, have testified that YOUNG FELL FIVE STOREYS DOWN THE SHAFT AFTER THEY PRESSED HIM AGAINST THE ELEVATOR DOOR HARD ENOUGH TO POP THE DOOR OFF ITS TRACKS.

A review by Alberta's Justice Department said the guards used "a modest amount of restraint" and followed "normal procedures." Police said there was not enough evidence to lay criminal charges.

Earlier Monday, Lorena Young testified that her son WAS LIKE ANY OTHER NORMAL TEENAGER AS LONG AS HE TOOK HIS PILLS FOR ATTENTION DEFICIT HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER, OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANCE DISORDER AND OTHER PROBLEMS. PROZAC AND RITALIN WERE PRESCRIBED WHEN HE WAS AS YOUNG AS SIX.

When he didn't take his medication, she said he could quickly "flip-out," swear, and throw things.

Young said after her son's arrest she phoned the Edmonton Young Offenders Centre to inquire about his pills, but was told that outside medication
wasn't allowed. "I asked if I could bring it in and they said no," she said. "He had to have them every day."

Young and her lawyer contend that the lack of medication was responsible for her son's outbursts.

Toxicology tests performed after the boy's death were inconclusive.

Royal said a report from the young offenders centre said Kyle Young exhibited a long history of behavioural problems, including an explosive
temper, trouble learning, impulsive tendencies and an aggressive, angry manner.

Lorena Young has said she hopes Judge LeGrandeur will determine if excessive force was used by the guards and if the elevator door was defective.

Public fatality inquiries establish the cause, manner, time and other circumstances of a death. They do not determine legal responsibility but may
offer recommendations to prevent future deaths.

[Paul]

Deborah,

OK, here is your chance, what would you have
done for this individual?

[Deborah]

***OK, here is your chance, what would you have
done for this individual?

I assume you're talking about the deceased. If you mean the sadistic killers, that would be a different story.

The short answer:
If I had the limited information the mother (and the majority of people) had, I may have done the same.
Given the information I am aware of, way back when he was 6 years old I would have:

1)Ruled out any neurological, visual, or medical problems
2)Altered his diet and added supplements. Check for food allergies.
3)Find the source of the ?learning difficulty?. Determine if he might do better in private school. Does he have ?attention deficit? or ?selective attention??
Remember this story? http://www.austinmontessori.org/donnabr ... apter9.htm

That?s for starters. In addition, the parent could benefit from some counseling on how to help him effectively deal with the anger/aggression, looking at the family dynamics and what might be contributing to his lack of peace.

The long answer can be found in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#15275

Ten years of drugs obviously did him no good. I would think that at some point someone might suggest doing something different. Hmmm... but then there is that unfortunate problem of limited information due to the lack of 'evidence'. Which, btw, the drug companies haven't provided either- just a yarn they spin for the public. Pretty evident they didn't help this young man, and many more like him.