What I think to answer Carey - what if ???

[Carey]

No Kaadee I am not.  I don't want to be seen as being on either side.  I don't agree with the industry as a whole.  It is far too risky.  

I am sure the PUREst would like to see me just shut up and disappear just like Dundee would like for me to have done.  I didn't and I am not going to.

[Froderik]

No WE'D like you to shut up and disappear, at least from this board, unless you come clean.

[Anonymous]

carey,

did WWASP promise not to sue you and include you in a conspiracy theory to put them out of business lawsuit?

do you trust them?

to the best of my knowledge in civil law it does not matter what they promise you (even in writing)- there is no immunity and they could add you to a suit AND it sounds like that's exactly what they did when they named you in writing along with many others to reserve the right to sue in the future.

so I wouldn't say/think that you're different from anyone else who has shared their experiences and dis-satisfaction and you've corresponded with others so??

just a little FYI

ya might want to get more counsel than your new friends at WWASP on this one. Just because you think you didn't do anything wrong doesn't matter. Who has done anything wrong?-the point is WWASP wants all anti-voices to go away and may try to slap suit you to achieve it.

[Carey]

did WWASP promise not to sue you and include you in a conspiracy theory to put them out of business lawsuit?

No.  

do you trust them?

I don't trust them anymore that I trust you!

to the best of my knowledge in civil law it does not matter what they promise you (even in writing)- there is no immunity and they could add you to a suit AND it sounds like that's exactly what they did when they named you in writing along with many others to reserve the right to sue in the future.

Like I said, I have not done anything wrong.  I have only shared my experience.  They can sue me, you can sue me, everyone who wants can sue me.  

so I wouldn't say/think that you're different from anyone else who has shared their experiences and dis-satisfaction and you've corresponded with others so??

Well I think that is what it is all about...sharing experiences.  I guess the difference in me sharing my experience and PURE sharing their experience is the fact that I am not in the business of placing kids in other programs.  

just a little FYI

ya might want to get more counsel than your new friends at WWASP on this one. Just because you think you didn't do anything wrong doesn't matter. Who has done anything wrong?-the point is WWASP wants all anti-voices to go away and may try to slap suit you to achieve it.

I don't have any friends at WWASP.  I don't want any friends at WWASP.  I am not looking for friendship from any folks in the industry.  I couldn't aford an attorney if I wanted one.  I am still struggling to pay off the debt already incurred as a resulf of all tht has occured as a result of the boys placement in Dundee.

[Anonymous]

has WWASP paid you for the emails you've already given them?

How did you turn them over to them? did you mail them - did they come pick them up or did you take them to Utah?

if they do sue you - you say you cannot afford an attorney so would you just agree to never say anything bad about WWASP again?

it seems those may be your choices?

[Anonymous]

from my unlegal mind- Carey - these lawsuits are civil actions not crimminal. They are not alleging any crime but WWASP is alleging that through defamation/lies they have been damaged and it has hurt their business and cost them millions..funny tho because they brag about how enrollment has only gone up so where's the damage?

you keep saying I haven't done anything illegal but that doesn't apply in civil court...your actions may have hurt their feelings  :sad:  and in our litigeous society that's all it can take

seems like you would have done some research here before diving in with them.

good news is the truth is an absolute defense yet you must be able to pony up for an attorney to get that far. but if WWASP loses a slap suit they are responsible for??

and the BEST news is that they are open to counter suits/discovery so they better think long and hard before adding to the list - there are many others who can afford to fight them and would love to file counter suits and  Bobby doesn't seem to like to sit for depositions...

maybe they've been storing up all that $ for a transfer to the righteous?

[Froderik]

The facts: Carey went ahead and sent people's emails (posts, whatever...stuff ) that she had NO RIGHT to forward ANYWHERE, LET ALONE WWASP! Let's forget about PURE for a goddamn minute here. She should not have done that, period. No excuse. And then, THEN - when the people here were trying to find out what happened she denied, denied, denied, denied, denied, denied, and then FINALLY ADMITTED what she had done. This seems like a no-brainer. She's a coward and a liar on top of that, and STILL refuses to come clean as I write this. Let's call a spade a spade here. This shit is getting old...I wish it were over, but it keeps going, and going, and going, and going...

[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-16 20:07 ]

[Antigen]

Froderick, did she admit something? Or is she continuing to deny it? How can it be both ways?

The only information that everyone agrees Carey sent to Lon Woodburry were pictures proving abuse at Dundee. I would love to see those pictures and share them with the whole world.

As to confidential emails, the only ones I know for sure that Carey's shared with anyone are the ones on this site. Do you see anything in any of those that might somehow hurt children or draw legal fire from WWASP? I don't.

All the rest is just rumor and gossip.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer

[Deborah]

The only information that everyone agrees Carey sent to Lon Woodburry were pictures proving abuse at Dundee. I would love to see those pictures and share them with the whole world.
******************

Nope, everyone doesn't agree. That is not what was presented in another thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=40

This comment was made:
Carey - please drop the issue you're doing exactly what I asked you not to do - pointing fingers and being, frankly, a bit pushy. I conceded already that Maria gave you permission to give Lon the pictures however I don't believe she understood what she was doing or who Lon is.
**************

Does that mean that Carey was in possession of the pictures? Does that mean that she had Marie's permission IF she were to gain possession?
Must be the latter because Carey followed with this comment:

I don't have them. I have never seen them. I have only heard about them. If I had pictures of kids being abused I would have turned them over to police and I would have made a copy and turned them over to the media. I surely would not be sitting on them for some law suit. That was my argument back then. I have to wonder if they really exist. If they do, and someone has been holding on to them, then that someone should be held accountable for any child who has suffered abuse since.

[Froderik]

Froderick, did she admit something? Or is she continuing to deny it? How can it be both ways?

She admitted to sending the emails, Ginger. But she hasn't told us why she did it, and why she denied it for so long. She sent them to WWASP. They weren't hers to send. Enough said.  :flame:

[Anonymous]

carey HAS given thousands of emails to WWASP and they've added many others including Carey (in writing) to a list they are asking for permission to add to the lawsuit - they seem to feel that after Carey's actions that she and others are acting to put them out of business and defame them.

it HAS been done weeks ago.

the questions that remain are was she paid as WWASP seems to indicate?

she obviously did not fully understand what she was doing as she writes like Sue's case is crimminal and she did nothing wrong yet it is NOT criminal and Carey is in the same boat as everyone else named except others may also have cause of action against her.

the point of this thread is to remind Carey of the facts and her hounding of the alleged rape victim..she was the one pushing then to come forward and others were telling her to back off. She was the one trying to force others to come out and others were telling her to back off and mellow out the choice belongs to the victim even if Carey had a Judge to convince- so what- it's still up to the individual with the experience if they want to come forward or not...others tried to get her to back off kind of like they've done here.

Sounds kinda hard to believe that she would hound a victim for her purposes yet after reading what she writes here it is very believeable especially since she seems to go by what is good for Carey at a particular time.

so Carey we have a right to know how much money you got don't we?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, how much money did wwasp pay you for turning over that information Carey?  Everyone knows you said you were in debt.  How much did you get? ::

[Froderik]

C'mon Ginger - Don't stay on the fence!!

Your time has come, Carey...

[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-17 07:40 ]

[Antigen]

Like I said awhile ago, if Carey really turned over all that material to WWASP that they couldn't have gotten, or couldn't have gotten easily, she'll rue the day. Not bcause of someone else on the trekers' list punishing her for it. But because of what WWASP will do with it.

Do we defame WWASP? By some definitions, we sure as hell do, every chance we get.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/ ... &va=defame

Is it illegal or born of bad intent? Well, no. I don't see a real difference between accusing someone like Ken Lay and accusing someone like Ken Kay. If you think Lay is not half the monster Kay is, you should talk to some of these old pensioners who will not be able to afford their heating bills in coming winters.

I don't know what Carey means by "My experience". But you're dead on. If she handed them evidence they could use to sue her for defamation, they'll probably do it. You'll be vindicated and right and get all the sympathy you crave. Bit it won't make me happy. It will be just another in a long string of tragic events.

What I don't understand is the reason for taking time, energy and cash away from something that might actually help kids, help shut down WWASP and have an overall positive effect for everyone but the bad guys just to punish Carey.

As to the issue of pressing the rape victim's family to come forward, I see both sides of that. I wouldn't do that to anyone. But a lot of people have a hard time understanding that, not just Carey. How many hours have you folks spent trying to pressure me into banning Carey from these forums cause that's what YOU think will help the kids.

This is especially hypocritical coming from ISAC ppl after all the disruption last summer around the time of the conference. And this is typical Program behavior. That's what gets me. You assume so much about other people's motives and decide for them what they should do. Then you go after them like a blood enemy, malign them publicly, threaten them, accuse them of all kinds of ill deeds and bad intent and then attack anyone who doesn't pile right on the attack.

So now you're suing. Great! Keep up the good work! I know some kid somewhere will be so thankful when they get out and find out that, instead of doing anything to help them, you're all consumed with this vendetta against Carey.

Somewhere in a post from last night, Carey linked back to the original topic back in May. You should read it over. Karen's response was particularly telling. She states outright that Carey's mortal sin had been to refuse to accept the group position.

What if the group position was wrong? What if the lawsuit never happens? What if the evidence is ruled out for some reason (or none)? Was it worth all this?

I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=AR5564&aid=10247' target='_new'>* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *

[spots]

Ginger, you think it is wrong to malign Carey because she isn't into "Groupthink".  Well, I don't agree with the way she goes about her business (especially when she publishes my private email to her, asking her to not focus on PURE), but I can certainly live with it if I have to.  But my beef is that *I* cannot be allowed to practice my own preferred method of ending behavior modification venues.  

I think a great strength of the Internet and this fourm is to pony up anecdotal info to counteract every single lie that WWASPS puts forth in their advertising, that really strong presence that pulls parents in.  Melissa is great in that regard...she KNOWS what really goes on, and can tell it in an interesting, easy-to-read form that visiting strangers to this forum will read.  I also try to publish straight-forward stories that will be repeated by parents and neighbors and law enforcement folks and school administrators and church youth group leaders...the real people who remember "horror" stories and repeat them.  If every time I try to tell a story, maybe about the reality of "school" vs. the WWASPS story of credentialed, high-achieving WWASPS students who regularly go into college (even if it is Southwestern Utah State), and my story/post is followed by Carey's bizarre ramblings about me being a PURE/Trekker/stooge who doesn't care about abused children because killing WWASPS is my "true" mission" [which only she can determine, I guess]...well, then, I object to her presence in a Big Way.  

If Carey wants to babble about an ed consultant that most visiting inquisitive parents have never heard of, it dilutes the effectiveness of this forum.  If Carey wants to babble about an ed consultant as a response to virtually every meaningful post, then she is killing the effectiveness of this forum.  

Have you noticed that we are not getting many anonymous postings lately about "It saved my son's life, because he would be dead or in jail"?  Do ya' think WWASPies are now satisfied, letting this forum die its own death from imploding?

I almost forgot the real purpose here, until The Source magazine came in the mail the other day, and Article #1 had to do with a mom's plea to keep your kid in until he graduates. OK, another anecdotal story:  she pulled her kid before graduation, he turned into a little shit after a short time at home, she is convinced that if she handed over tens of thousands of dollars more, this wouldn't have happened, etc.  Wouldn't we like to see the give-and-take on the BBS as the other clueless parents comfort her for having a failure child and saying it was not her fault but just bad judegement on her part to pull him early.  God, I hope she doesn't have a younger kid...and lots of extra money to incarcerate him.