I am an exsafe counselor

[exsafecounselor]

You and I are really on the same page when it comes to many things.  Unconditional love is an absolute.  I still do not think that this means a parent should relent to a child in need of treatment, who does not like being in treament, and asks to be removed.  I do not like disciplining my kids, but it is absolutely necessary for them to receive it.  Children as a whole crave discipline.  They have so many choices they want someone to give them guidelines.  It is a relief for them.  Please look up adolescent development, if you do not buy what I am saying.  

I am not saying chain and shackle a child, but give them direction.  We gave kids choices-work or dont work.  If you worked, you were rewarded.   If you did not, you were consequenced.  Sometimes this meant a "mike" talk, or group confrontation, or not advancing, or whatever was appropriate.  Spitting, hitting, depriving of food, water, shelter, medical care, was never a punishment.  

You mentioned that you had documents.  Is there any way I could look at them.  I am truly interested in what the parents and kids thought and think.

[exsafecounselor]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 14:53 ]

[Antigen]

You're talking to two different people. I'm the one w/ the 19yo prodigal daughter. Sammie's the one with the documents.

There are different ways to interpret the way you describe punishment and reward and the concept of discipline. Then there's the underlying problem of taking responsibility for every detail and aspect of the life and experience of a young adult. One thing I've noticed consistently about forme program clients is that their view of how helpful or harmful the program was is directly tied to their desire to change themselves in the first place.

Me? I didn't want to change myself. I had lived since the age of 6 with a neurotic mother who was just determined to believe that all 6 of her kids were druggiesinneedof treatment. All I wanted to change had been my living arrangements. To me, being brow beaten and constantly pressured to admit to drug problems and personality flaws and failings and guilt was abusive as hell.

If you assume that the diagnosis is correct, you might not see that as abusive. But you assume so much. Fact is, there are not enough genuine 16 year old drug addicts in all of North America to keep all these little gulags stacked. That means there are a lot of kids being forced through your vaunted Pavlovian techniques to denounce themselves and call it honesty. That is psychological torture!

Try this. Imagine you're married to a pathologically jealous and suspicious wife. Assume you take pride in fidelity, honesty and high morals along the lines of old fashioned American Christian boundaries of marital fidelity. But every time you walk through the door, you know you're going to get it.

Now, imagine you have 100 such wives and no job! Worse? Divorce or seperation are not options. If you try to escape, the police will bring you back and your own family will admonish you to confess to your unfaithful thoughts and deeds.

That's what those of us who were never addicts to begin with went through, 12 hours a day, every day, more on the ride home, still more in the host home. I feel soriest for those who graduated and were compelled to continue the charade long afterward or lose the affection, support and acceptance of their families.

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[exsafecounselor]

There are acutally two different types of drug diagnosis-addiction and abuse.  Most kids are actually not clinically diagnosed with addiction, but receive an abuse diagnosis.  I found this on the net.  It might be helpful.  Th

How can we tell if someone is abusing or addicted to drugs?

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - III - R
[DSM-III-R is not currently used but has historical utility.] At least three of the following are necessary; some of the symptoms of the disturbance must have persisted for at least one month or have occurred repeatedly over a longer period of time:

Substance is often taken in larger amounts or over longer period than intended
Persistent desire or one or more unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to get the substance (e.g., theft), taking the substance (e.g., chain smoking), or recovering from its effects
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of substance abuse
Continued substance use despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent social, psychological, or physical problem that is caused or exacerbated by use of the substance
Marked tolerance: need for markedly increased amounts of the substance (> 500/ increase) in order to achieve intoxication or desired effect, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
Characteristic withdrawal symptoms
Substance often taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
Frequent intoxication or withdrawal symptoms when expected to fulfill major role obligations or when use is physically hazardous
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual - IV

A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

Substance is often taken in larger amounts or over longer period than intended
Persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the substance (e.g., visiting multiple doctors or driving long distances), use the substance (e.g., chain smoking), or recover from its effects
Important social, occupational, or recreational activities given up or reduced because of substance abuse
Continued substance use despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent psychological, or physical problem that is caused or exacerbated by use of the substance
Tolerance, as defined by either:

need for read amounts of the substance in order to achieve intoxication or desired effect; or
markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
Withdrawal, as manifested by either:
characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance; or
the same (or closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms

This is what is universally used throughout the United States.

[exsafecounselor]

You are right, I really dont specifically reply to someone, I am just doing it generally.  I figure that others will read what I am writing anyway.

[Antigen]

Pure semantics. Smoking a joint after school was one of the healthiest things I'd ever done. It proved to me that Art Barker couldn't really read my mind when I went to open meeting the following Friday.

Regardless of how dire you think the situation is for these strangers who present at the door, it is morally wrong and horrendously harmful to force yourselves emotionally and psychologically on captive youths.

BTW, my daughter is doing fine. Working, saving, catching up with old friends who her psycho boyfriend wouldn't allow her to stay in contact with and getting ready for the Spring semester at the local community college.

Thanks for asking.

The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous

[exsafecounselor]

Just to clarify what exactly are you referring to as somantics?

[Antigen]

The difference between addiction and abuse (not to mention dependency...)

At the very bottom of it, SAFE and all similar programs take unwilling young people captive, usually against their will, and diagnose them as having some variety of drug problem (or even behavior that somehow presages a future drug problem) based on the observations of some third party. Once you have hold of the kid, you employ all kinds of psyche parlour tricks that most kids can't possibly understand to make them confess and believe that your diagnosis was correct.

Even if the kid did have some kind of problem related to drugs, the price of SAFE's brand of salvation amounts to denouncing themselves. If the kid with an actual drug problem ever wants to deal with it, they first have to sort out the difference between the bad, evil, death bound old self who existed before intake and whatever real problems they might have had.

That is abusive.

Look, it comes down to this. Professional psyche therapy is very like authentic friendship or familial love. It can be a wonderful thing if it's voluntary and if the participants don't get sidetracked on the financial arangements or other distractions.

But when you force it on an unwilling recipient, it's rape.

Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine

[sammiegirl]

http://www.safeorlando.com/the_signs.html
Gee your definition and theirs don't seem to match up?? ::
Does this mean that you misdiagnosed a multitude of unsuspecting clients. And not once does it say "Hey if you think your kids on drugs talk to him/her or "how about a private little pee test at the family Dr. and take it from there". No SAFE says "dump the foul mouthed bad dressed kid off here and we'll give you the NELSONS "take it away Ricky"
So didn't promote abuse?
Misuse your CAP??

[exsafecounselor]

Please go back and read what you wrote.  Rarely do you find a willing drug abuser/addict/whatever label you want to put in treatment.  Having worked with adults and kids, those who had something hanging over their head always did better.  In your world, therapy is either loving or rape.  Do you think you could be more dramatic.  I am sorry for what you went through.  It obviously has strongly affected who you are and how you feel about treatment of any kind.  Maybe in time as you mellow from your past experiences, you will see that there is alot of room between rape and loving therapy.

Again, at SAFE, we never invented symptoms.  They came from the kid, parents, or other sources like police reports, arrest records, etc.
If you think that smoking dope is so great, you should smoke with your daughter.  I am sure that will be a great bonding event for you.  

Although I am open to learning some, I do not know any parlor tricks.  It is hard to believe that you believe what you are saying when you call a therapists credentials and a medical text book, somantics.  Again, I do not doubt what you are saying, but to assume that because it happened to you, that it happened to everyone, is a little silly.  Dont't you think?

By the way, there is not a adolescent treatment program in the world that does not admit unwilling kids.  Does that mean everyone is abusive?  You give teenage drug users too much credit for making decisions that are in their best interests.  Adolescent drug users are never willing drug treatment particiapants.  Think about what you are saying for a minute.  That is not rape, it is actually putting the kids first to do what they need as opposed to what they want.  


[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2003-11-10 17:35 ]

[exsafecounselor]

If you think I misused my CAP, then call the CBAPF and report me.  Do you really think life is as black and white as you make it.  What did SAFE put in the website that is contradictory to what is in the medical textbook?  You will look hard, but there is nothing contradictory at all.  Just because the words are not identical does not mean that there is a nefarious plot at hand.  What I wrote is for clinical professionals, not parents.  Goto another treatment centers website and I would guess you will find similar things that SAFE wrote.

You are so intent on proving your point, that you are not open to anything to the contrary, whether it makes sense or not.

[exsafecounselor]

I found a new quote for you guys!

[Antigen]

On 2003-11-10 17:34:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Please go back and read what you wrote.  Rarely do you find a willing drug abuser/addict/whatever label you want to put in treatment.  

Well if the patient doesn't have a complaint, then how do you ever decide on a diagnosis? Is there a blood test? Or do you just rely on the "use = abuse" rule of thumb? And, by god, if they can't see that then you'll make some legal, family and school/work problems for them!

Having worked with adults and kids, those who had something hanging over their head always did better.

Sure, outwardly maybe. They're always easier to break and qicker to comply if you've got a big stick to beat them down with. But how would you know if they do better or worse of just about the same? You seem to be having trouble even finding any of your former clients? Do you just take it on faith?

 In your world, therapy is either loving or rape.  

No, I said either it's voluntary or it's rape. Would you deny that it's intimate? Personal? Deals with very private and often embarassing details of the patient's life and mind? Can you give me a better word to describe involuntary, coerced intimacy than rape?

I am sorry for what you went through.  It obviously has strongly affected who you are and how you feel about treatment of any kind.  Maybe in time as you mellow from your past experiences, you will see that there is alot of room between rape and loving therapy.

I'm not sorry for what I've gone through. At the very least, I knew better than to take Officer Friendly up on his offer to "help" my daughter, if only I'd file criminal charges against her. Doesn't matter if you call it love or not. It still boils down to forcing yourself on  helpless captives.

Again, at SAFE, we never invented symptoms.  

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
And those signs?

They came from the kid, parents, or other sources like police reports, arrest records, etc.

None from the patient, though? What kind of doctor are you, anyway?! (Oh yeah, I forgot, you're not a doctor, are you?)

Although I am open to learning some, I do not know any parlor tricks.  It is hard to believe that you believe what you are saying when you call a therapists credentials and a medical text book, somantics.  

Uh... Sparkey? You getting carried away again? I was on pretraining for staff. My sister in law was on staff at The Seed, not long before former Seed staffers started Straight. Do you have any idea how many intakes I saw, either firsthand by having known the people before and after? What the hell are you talking about therapists credentials and medical texts? The Signs and a gullible parent are the only criteria for diagnosis. And remember, denial is the first sign of addiction! :wink:

Again, I do not doubt what you are saying, but to assume that because it happened to you, that it happened to everyone, is a little silly.  Dont't you think?

Or, coversely, it happened to me and to everyone I've ever met who went through these programs, including SAFE before, during and after the time you were there, it seems more than a little silly for you to propose that you must have been in some completely different program.

By the way, there is not a adolescent treatment program in the world that does not admit unwilling kids.  

That's rediculous.

Does that mean everyone is abusive?  You give teenage drug users too much credit for making decisions that are in their best interests.  Adolescent drug users are never willing drug treatment particiapants.  Think about what you are saying for a minute.  That is not rape, it is actually putting the kids first to do what they need as opposed to what they want.  

But... just awhile ago, you seemed to be saying that all SAFE clients could walk out at will. Now you're saying all of them were there against their will???

Believe me, I've thought about what I'm saying on some level every day for damned near 35 years. First, as the little sister watching one after another of my older brothers and sister and their friends either get sucked into the brainwashing factory or exit our lives for good. Then came my turn.

Now I'm the mommy. You're the one who lacks experience at guaging a teenager's ability to sort out their lives or how best to support them through the process. Seems you've never actually tried it.

Again, kid's doing well and we couldn't be happier to have her back in the loving arms of her family. Thanks again for asking.

Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[Antigen]

On 2003-11-10 17:41:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"If you think I misused my CAP, then call the CBAPF and report me.  

Ok, give your name, then, so that people who knew you when and can actually testify can take you up on that.

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

[Antigen]

On 2003-11-10 18:06:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"I found a new quote for you guys!"

Excellent! Here are a couple of my favorites along the same lines.

"There lives more faith, in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the creeds."
Alfred Lord Tennyson

"Were the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potato as an article of food. Government is just as infallible,[sic] too, when it fixes systems in physics. Galileo was sent to the Inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere.... It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.

--Thomas Hodgskin