Author Topic: Carolina Springs  (Read 10530 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline anon

  • Posts: 267
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« on: October 13, 2003, 11:16:00 AM »
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 18:49 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Carey

  • Posts: 826
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2003, 12:46:00 PM »
Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE?  What kind?  One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?

I am sorry, I just don't undertand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline anon

  • Posts: 267
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2003, 01:37:00 PM »
[ This Message was edited by: Zip on 2003-11-15 19:08 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Carolina Springs
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2003, 02:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-10-13 09:46:00, Carey wrote:

"Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE?  What kind?  One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?



I am sorry, I just don't undertand."


Karen's right. The kind of parent who would leave their kids with these sadistic lunatics are the kind who simply refuse to believe that they are sadistic lunatics. Here's a big, blinking clue as to how they pull off the divide an conquore slight of mind.

"Child Torture and Violation of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. In response to the arrests, WWASP rallied parents and accused the Czech authorities of "reverting to their communist past", with majority owner Ralph Atkin noting that dealing with the Czech's was "like dealing with the KGB."

Now, if the only thing that terrifies you more than the mythical power of a joint to transform your kid into Charles Manson is the corrupting and horrifying prospect of Communist world rule, this might look like a pretty compelling argument.

This is just a simple, obvious ad hominem attack. Smear the critic, call them commies and KGB. Crude, but effective. At the same time, as you well know, WWASP and their philisophical brethren carry on a concerted and sustained damage control campaign. They'll bribe, intimidate and smear parents and former clients who dissent and they'll bribe, cajole and smooze the authorities to deflect serious investigations. That's where a lot of the money goes; to lobbying. How much of the "Faith Based and Community Initiatives" billions do you think WWASP is in line for if they can keep Goldsmith and Ashcroft well funded and protected till payday?

I can tell you that the steady diet of HRS ad hominems on which I was raised (Floridas Health and Rehab Svcs, since renamed and reorganized a few times) was so effective that, when HRS came to my aid to help me fight through the courts against being returned to Straight, I didn't know who to be more afraid of.

And there is some merit in the criticizm of these state agencies. While in HRS care, most of the other kids I met did not really view what was happening to them as very helpful. A lot of them just wanted to go home and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how to make that happen.

This makes it very easy for a desperate parent to see these fine, upstanding Mormons who are accused of unimaginable cruelty are really nobel, martyred victims of a Communist conspiracy. The parents know that they signed consent to have their kid restrained "if they're a danger to themselves and others" They simply do not believe that these "good Christians" would use that authority inapropriately.

If you can imagine it, the WWASP staff don't really believe that what they're doing is inapropriate either. They're no different in that respect from those people who all put on nice new sneakers and offed themselves trying to hitch a ride on a passing commet. From their viewpoint, suicide was not really an inapropriate action, given the circumstances.

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/sittbull.html' target='_new'>Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Carey

  • Posts: 826
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2003, 02:34:00 PM »
Quote
What you don't understand is, these program parents are not Able to believe the program is abusive! They don't believe it b/c they can't - and I know you think thats bull shit

They might not believe it now, but I bet you they will believe it once they see a parent held accountable for it.

NO, I do not believe the parents are "brainwashed."  I believe they are gullable, careless, insensative, controlling, easily influenced and many other things, but I do not believe they are "brainwashed."

If they don't believe their child is being abused, it is either because they have not been there to see it, or it is because they choose not to see it, or it is because it is not happening.  The only thing left is that they believe it and simply think the child deserves it (sick to think there are parents that think this way, but there are).

The parents have to be held accountable just as the consultants, escorts and programs.  It is the combined effort of all invovled who have harmed the children.  The parents have been neglectful as have the consultants.  The consultants, escorts and programs have been exploitive as well as abusive, given what I know, saw, and heard, and personally witnessed at Dundee.

Quote
The kind of parent who would leave their kids with these sadistic lunatics are the kind who simply refuse to believe that they are sadistic lunatics


So hold them accountable, either by pressing charges against them for neglect, or else throw them in the luney bin where they belong.  But what ever, make them accountable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2003, 03:32:00 PM »
NO, I do not believe the parents are "brainwashed."  I believe they are gullable, careless, insensative, controlling, easily influenced and many other things, but I do not believe they are "brainwashed."


No, Carey. That is just what you think of your ex husband. You are in dire need of a reality check... you cannot continue to portray your visualization of you husband onto the thousands of parents that have been straight duped by WWASP. I just can't understand how you are so ignorant and stubborn, and continue to argue about this. Get over it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2003, 04:03:00 PM »
Or...duped by newspaper articles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2003, 05:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-10-13 09:46:00, Carey wrote:

"Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE?  What kind?  One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?



I am sorry, I just don't undertand."


What kind?  The one program parent I know of, and people differ, so I know this is just one anecdotal example, is loopy, self-absorbed, and materialistic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Carolina Springs
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2003, 06:35:00 PM »
Well, Carey, they definitely unsee it because they don't want to see it. I won't argue that with you, we agree.

But family is family. No matter how bad things get or what goes between parent and child, they still need eachother. Leave turning families against eachother to the WWASPies, that's their gig.

Now, I don't know that PURE is any better than WWASP. I do believe they're sincere and that they think they're the good guys. But I've seen that before. Every time a program comes under a lot of pressure, there's always a group of reformers who want to create a kinder, gentler coercive thought reform program. Maybe one day we'll find a way to get them to learn from past mistakes? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure this is not it.

"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)

--Bastard Administrator

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2003, 07:32:00 PM »
They might not believe it now, but I bet you they will believe it once they see a parent held accountable for it.




No they wouldn't. You'd just have a martyr on your hands. Or a group of martyrs.  It would just solidify the group think, if you threaten the group. It would make what is already difficult, impossible; that being reaching out to, and getting threw to, the Program parents.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2003, 07:44:00 PM »
THX Karen

at the end it
looks like the article is from 99 and the Intrepidnetreporter site.

 

 I can see why they wouldn't want quotes like those from Government agency documents out there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2003, 11:16:00 PM »
The definition of Brainwash:
1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

Its not necessary to isolate and deprive a parent in order to persuade and indoctrinate them (look at organized religions), it does appear to be necessary with teens. All you have to do is provide a ?solution? for parent?s fear and/or anger.

Programs definitely use salesmanship. They have determined what most "reasonable" parent will agree to and tolerate, and that's what they present- simultaneously withholding important details regarding the methods and techniques any reasonable parent would oppose. It's illegal to withhold information. It is illegal to abuse under the guise of therapy/BM. Deception and fraud.

Parents are not given details regarding the BM techniques employed, the extent of restriction, limited calories for punishment,  actual uses of restraint, etc.

Once the parent has made a commitment and the teen is in their control, they then employ heavy persuasion and salesmanship to keep the teen ($$$$) there.
Example:
"Your child is a lying manipulator, you can trust us."
"It took 13,14,15 years for your child to get in this shape, change is not going to happen overnight."
"Refinance your home, use the collage fund, borrow, whatever it takes to keep your child here."
"Your child would be dead if s/he were in your care, trust the process."

They have compiled a list of excuses to use with parent when things don?t go as originally presented, but ultimately the excuse suggests that the teen is ?not progressing?, ?not working the program?.

To entertain prosecuting parents for collaborating with abusive programs is a waste of time and energy. You first have to establish that abuse is occurring. If that is not difficult enough- because the only witnesses are "lying manipulating teens who are not credible"- you then would have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the parent was aware of abuse and allowed it. Good luck !!! For those who support the notion that parents should be prosecuted for colluding with an abusive program?Who do you think is going to take that action?  A class action is not appropriate in this situation- An individual must initiate that action.  And the individuals who do decide to take this action against another parent, better have a stash of cash.

I resent my ex for incarcerating our son and the program for colluding with him- both perjuring themselves in order to keep him there. No one but I can "make him accountable". So, are any of you parents promoting this notion taking any action? And if so, how's it going.

Or how else do you propose to hold parents accountable?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2003, 11:35:00 PM »
So Deborah, how is resentment for your ex-husband sucking your energy?  Did he want to help your son or hurt him?  Did your influence on your son have anything to do with his behavior?  I see you as a judgmental person.  If you were my mother I would feel like I couldn't do anything "right."  Does it have to look a certain way, your way, for it to be considered acceptable?  

These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating?  They did that at home, for sometimes years, before the parents intervened.  Intervention is not "throwing" them away.  

No marketing company for wwasp or anyone else needs to feed on parent's fears.  THey already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place.  They are there to provide an option PERIOD.  

I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents.  PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about.  It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2003, 11:54:00 PM »
One BIGGIE that you forgot to say is that it is the WHOLE family that is in breakdown, not just the kid.  Will a 28 day rehab for the teen only help that in the long term?  There are several levels of the change process, both for the teen and the parents.  Is the answer going to a counselor week after week for years with minimal results if the whole family isn't willing to take a look at what they need or want to change?  Reb works, counseling works, parenting works, but only if they do the work.  

Behavior modification is drastic, not always comfortable, but needed in many families.  

Those holier than thou that feel they made it through their teen years unscathed are judging those that weren't.  Yes, they may be alive, but what is the baggage they carry that keeps them from living life to the fullest? Behavior change programs give them a bigger picture, more choices, and a feeling of self worth.  It works until they come home to parents that didn't do  the work and refuse to see what part they played in the breakdown to begin with.  The teen that came home with confidence can either immediately go back into their crap or stand for their own success.  It's hard to do the latter when the parents expect perfection, but some overcome their parents influences.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Carolina Springs
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2003, 11:54:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-10-13 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So Deborah, how is resentment for your ex-husband sucking your energy?  Did he want to help your son or hurt him?  Did your influence on your son have anything to do with his behavior?  I see you as a judgmental person.  If you were my mother I would feel like I couldn't do anything "right."  Does it have to look a certain way, your way, for it to be considered acceptable?  



These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating?  They did that at home, for sometimes years, before the parents intervened.  Intervention is not "throwing" them away.  



No marketing company for wwasp or anyone else needs to feed on parent's fears.  THey already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place.  They are there to provide an option PERIOD.  



I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents.  PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about.  It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that? "
:eek: You are very intuitive. Hit the nail on the head!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »