Spots and Deberahs Family Dynamics?

[Carey]

Deborah - You are missing what I just said. The KID has to buy into any help.

Are you saying that if the kid does not buy into it then it is ok to force it upon him?

[Anonymous]

No, Carey.  Forcing therapy on someone is pointless.  Giving them an opportunity to do it, is different.  A parent may have consequences in place if the child is non-compliant - let the child also choose the consequences - loss of car, tv, computer, something they want to keep. If it doesn't work - in most cases, it won't, then give them some options - in writing, and have them sign it.  One of those options could be going to live with grandma, let them know you have been considering sending them to a boarding school.  Problem is parents will keep giving chance after chance, and not following through with the consequences. What does that tell them about life and rules in general?  

Rebuilding communication, if it's still controllable, is always key.  Threats don't work, the teen has to understand there are consequences to skipping school, breaking curfew, or what would be considering "testing the waters."  

It can go way beyond normal stuff quickly. ADDers are a high risk behavior personality and self-medicating, running away, unprotected sex, anger don't respond to consequences unless there's consistency and a responsiblity on their part to change their behavior.

If the teen is unwilling to work with a therapist, then I'm saying that more drastic measures may be warranted.  Sending them to an overnight juvenile justice center stay, a short term program of some type, or if that doesn't work, a long term treatment center.

[Anonymous]

The Question is still out for Spots and Deborah,

Who Has Custody?

It a simple question please answer.

[Anonymous]

"No, Carey. Forcing therapy on someone is pointless."-

BINGO! It looks like that settles it.
  WWASP is pointless.  Anything a kid has to be kidnapped (I mean "escorted") to is coercion.  True unconditional love and patience and guiding the child to set their own rules works.  It may not be an overnight breakdown of personality, but it will work.  If a teen is failing school ask them what they think they should do in order to do better. And they're actually smart enough to figure it out.  Help them live by rules that they help make.  Read "Coercion and it's Fallout" by Murray Sidman.  The part about the mice is very interesting.  You can conclude that once the lid is off the maze (programs) and the kids no longer have to deal with the punishment they will always associate the punisher with the punishment (including the parents that sent them there.)  They really learn nothing about decision making, or living in loving families.  They learn to avoid punishment even if the act they are being punished for was actually life sustaining.  They learn to not care about their own desires, just to avoid punishment.  It's a scary way to go through life, but hopefully they will eventually meet normal people and have loving relationships and learn about stable, loving families in their lives outside of coercive programs.

[Anonymous]

http://www.intervention.com/servsfi.html

[Anonymous]

Again, to the ANON poster 2 above this - if the child is not willing to go or to participate in the family therapy at home, intervention may be necessary.  

Once a child is safely at the program, it may take months for them to stop resisting and begin healing. How many families have successfully accomplished a child willing to do this at home?  

Intervention is crucial to stop the destruction.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-04 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

""No, Carey. Forcing therapy on someone is pointless."-



BINGO! It looks like that settles it.

  WWASP is pointless.  Anything a kid has to be kidnapped (I mean "escorted") to is coercion.  True unconditional love and patience and guiding the child to set their own rules works.  It may not be an overnight breakdown of personality, but it will work.  If a teen is failing school ask them what they think they should do in order to do better. And they're actually smart enough to figure it out.  Help them live by rules that they help make.  Read "Coercion and it's Fallout" by Murray Sidman.  The part about the mice is very interesting.  You can conclude that once the lid is off the maze (programs) and the kids no longer have to deal with the punishment they will always associate the punisher with the punishment (including the parents that sent them there.)  They really learn nothing about decision making, or living in loving families.  They learn to avoid punishment even if the act they are being punished for was actually life sustaining.  They learn to not care about their own desires, just to avoid punishment.  It's a scary way to go through life, but hopefully they will eventually meet normal people and have loving relationships and learn about stable, loving families in their lives outside of coercive programs.  "

Dont know where you got your information about not learning decision making or living in loving families, but it obviously wasn't concerning a wwasp program!

Ever read "Who Moved My Cheese?"   A much better read about "mice."

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-03 21:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen - very good try on this one - the writing assignments are a very SMALL part of a seminar and it's NOT mandatory.  You can bet that many more parents CHOOSE to write those letters and it is NOT a requirement of the kids to write - at all.  Like the above ANON said - Good try!  Won't fly."

TASKS Ground Rule #13 - Follow the instructions of the facilitator.

The facilitator assigns homework. In order to keep the ground rules which are agreed to on the first day, homework is mandatory. If homework is not mandatory why are attendees required to turn it in?

You claim that this is a small part of the seminar, yet I am certain that you felt it was overwhelming at the time. My experience is that the attendees always feel there is a very large amount of homework at all of the seminars.

An example of this SMALL part of the seminar:

Discovery Homework, Friday
1. Write a minimum of one page on your experience of yourself during the Red / Black game. Explore your behaviors, your attitudes,your assumptions and your beliefs about yourself and others and connect them with how these are patterns in your life.

2. What was your definition of 'Accountability' before today? What is your definition of 'Accountability' now? If there is a difference between the two, how will this difference impact your life?

3. Identify five significant emotionally upsetting events in your life. Write about what beliefs about yourself or others you either formed or reinforced as a result of those events.

4. Start a journal about your experience of yourself during  the first day of Discovery.

Do you recall the facilitator ever asking those who have not completed their homework to stand? Why is this done? What happens next?

Letters of appreciation to our child's program is definitely a homework assignment. I recall this from Discovery (both as an attendee and as a staffer) and from Focus (still have the notes from the focus I staffed that tells me clearly that I am to collect these letters from my group). If you read the letters on wwasp site, most of them state that they have just finished Discovery or Focus. I suppose that is just a coincident that they CHOSE to write those letters at that time.

Judy

[Anonymous]

Judy - did you not read that most parents choose to write these types of letters, and don't think it's all in the seminars?  It's definitely not. Good try, again, it won't fly.

Why would a person attend a seminar and not turn in homework you so expertly posted?  Doesn't it help to put a personal experience on paper?  Those that didn't do the homework could be in resistance or think it's not They will get what they were willing to put into it. No judgment on the facilitator's part, they just ask questions to get them to think about the choice they made.  

Plenty of parents didn't complete the assignments in many of the seminars I attended or staffed.  It is called accountability and it is an eye opener.  

Is that a bad thing?

[Anonymous]

My post was a response to this:

On 2004-01-03 21:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen - very good try on this one - the writing assignments are a very SMALL part of a seminar and it's NOT mandatory.  You can bet that many more parents CHOOSE to write those letters and it is NOT a requirement of the kids to write - at all.  Like the above ANON said - Good try!  Won't fly."

I was simply sharing my experience of the seminars and that I (among others attending with me) considered the homework to be a LARGE, not small, part of the seminar. I also strongly disagree with the statement that homework is NOT mandatory. I backed that up with a little more detail.

My post had nothing to do with whether or not the homework had value. I am aware that "plenty of parents" do not complete their homework. Do you want to confirm that they are then "reminded" that they broke ground rules when they did not complete the mandatory homework?

You and Darlene must have attended Discovery and Focus together. You are the only 2 people I have heard say that a letter to the facility was not part of their homework.

Judy

[Anonymous]

Judy - I'm not the same anon here, but I just want to say that I read that he/she agreed that some parents choose to write letters of appreciation in the seminars, but that's not the only time they are written.  What's wrong with that?  Do they also give them a template or sample letters to use?  No, they don't.  They say what they do because that's what they feel, I would guess.  If you read the letters on the wwasp rebuttal website, you'll see there are many that have had their kids home for a while.  When the letters were written is not really important, it's the content that matters.  

I personally was never asked to write a letter of appreciation, but it's been a while since I was in a seminar, maybe it's something new.  I chose to write a letter of appreciation a couple of years ago after my relative graduated and had been home a while.  :wink: