General Interest > Thought Reform

Training, Therapy or Thought Reform in the TTI?

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psy:

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---So back to my point they are either extremely uneducated, in denial/delusional or they believe what they are doing/practicing is working.
--- End quote ---

All of the above.  Usually the program owners/directors are clued in to the fact that it's basically a scam, but even some of those were once staff and simply believe they have the one true way to help kids.  As to how they can implement such elaborate tactics without knowing what they're doing?  They learned from predecessors who designed the system.  Most programs today are basically cult copycats.  They might not have designed (or even understand) the thought reform system/processes, but they implement what they were taught and from their perspective, it "works".  It does provide dramatic results while the participant is in the program.  It's a dramatic illusion for the staff as well.

Anne Bonney:

--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Awake" ---Huge disagreement with you there Whooter. Only its not just that the kid loses contact with their primary environment, they manipulate contact with their primary environment to manipulate the kid. Control over that communication and contact is a tool of coercion.
--- End quote ---

I understand that you disagree with me, Samara, and that is okay considering your experience and perspective.  I dont knock you for that.  But once you open up the communication and allow kids to speak with their parents openly without any staff around and they are able to send out letters unscreened like we have seen in todays programs, and engage the surrounding community the chance of a successful thought reform or brainwashing falls away.  There is no way to sustain enough control to be successful.

--- End quote ---

No it doesn't because the parents are conditioned (re-educated) by the programs to not believe anything negative that the child says about the program.

heretik:

--- Quote from: "Awake" ---That is definitely a good thing, Whooter, but neither is it a standard, and it has a history of that specific kind of manipulation. It also it does not excuse the fact that the teen is in a confined restricted environment in which the attitude they portray is the object of punishment or reform. And It is also traditional for the parents to go through training seminars that coach them on how to communicate with their child when they do. In this way the program can utilize the deep rapport that has developed between them and the motivation of the family dynamic.  They are now separated and neither has truly informed consent as to the influences behind the communication of the other. From above



--- Quote ---I asked a question above in my post and have yet to receive a answer from you. The breakdown of the question goes something like this. The staff that are being asked to work with the parents and children are ill-trained, lack in proper education and training so therefore have yet to accumulate real experience. So how is it possible for the results your writing about to happen effectively.

I understand when your writing a paper, you are using a perfect lab setting for your hypothesizes, everyone is highly educated and following correct procedures when creating this model. In the real world inside programs we understand this is but a dream.

Moving on to another subject, teens in trouble. I have a opinion on this comment you made here to Whooter, if I may.
In order to get a teens attention do you not feel it is important to cut off all outside interferences, at least for a short period of time. I would think this would help the teen to become focused on what the issues are that need to be addressed.
Training or educating parents to learn how to communicate with their child, is this wrong. I would think this could always be beneficial, whether in a program or not.

You keep talking about the environment these children are in is restricted, should it be otherwise. I would think not if you are trying to correct destructive thinking which leads to bad behavior, we are talking for a short period of time. Yes it is the "attitude" that is the most watched at first, because your attitude tells people what is going on with you. Bad attitude along with bad behavior does bring discipline.

Your comment here below Awake is poignant, in so far as this paragraph you wrote could be thought to resemble every working environment here in this democratic country we live in. (I highlited your comment I opined on here)

--- End quote ---


“the early commitment of training to the values of uncoerced choice, autonomy, and voluntary participation in democratic decision making is important to bear in mind. ….. If, however, it were established that training involved not free exchange, but a subtle process of influence WHICH ONLY RESEMBLES FREE EXCHANGE, then the influences of a training experience would indeed be dangerous, the more so for being difficult to detect.”
--- End quote ---

Inculcated:

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---I asked a question above in my post and have yet to receive a answer from you. The breakdown of the question goes something like this. The staff that are being asked to work with the parents and children are ill-trained, lack in proper education and training so therefore have yet to accumulate real experience. So how is it possible for the results your writing about to happen effectively.
--- End quote ---
Your first question previously posted and now rephrased was effectively answered by Psy here on this very thread.
Anyway...
In answer to the gist of those questions you’ve posed: I’m going to say no, cutting a kid off from the outside world and placing them under the care of individuals whose training includes little more than their experience of having been promoted from within the program is problematic to say the very least. As you may well know, programs in operation today are still promote from within the ranks organizations largely staffed and even directed by graduates.

Placing them in the care of programs that have staffing with broader training that still apply these breakdown methods is no less dangerous—as the tactics that provide the most immediate appearance of change incorporate (with some variations of the theme) the elements that have been outlined quite clearly above. It doesn’t matter the degree of training involved when a “the ends justify the means” rationale is the basis for exhorting control by use of injurious debasing and demoralizing methods that happen to be packaged in tandem with techniques that are not themselves inherently harmful.  

Who’s to say adults are immune from immersing themselves in the dominating themes in a thought reform or simply closed intense environment and simply carrying out orders as instructed? There are some oft cited studies that speak to this phenomenon too. I would hope that there would be many who reject this, but accounts from former employees of abusive programs like RTCS and even Psych settings tell that those who did voice their objections mostly seem to have experienced a common theme of being ignored or dismissed

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---I understand when your writing a paper, you are using a perfect lab setting for your hypothesizes, everyone is highly educated and following correct procedures when creating this model.
--- End quote ---
Hmmm there’s another poster that I can think of who assumes academic research occurs only in some imagined pristine “lab” setting. That is an erroneous assumption. As is the assumption that such a thing couldn't replicated in "the real world" as it has been over and over again in the surreal setting of TCs

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---In the real world inside programs we understand this is but a dream.
--- End quote ---
Which programs would those be that you have such knowledge their inner workings?

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---Moving on to another subject, teens in trouble. I have a opinion on this comment you made here to Whooter, if I may.
In order to get a teens attention do you not feel it is important to cut off all outside interferences, at least for a short period of time. I would think this would help the teen to become focused on what the issues are that need to be addressed.
--- End quote ---
Can you not think of better ways to engage children and get their attention? For that matter any program that does not place an emphasis on making communication with the family an integral part of the treatment is doing a disservice to that family and further goes to treating the child as the problem rather than approaching the breakdown in within the family unit. In the case where the primary care takers are abusive, this should not be pandered to or ignored for any reason, but financial motivations could preclude such considerations as say contacting the authorities. It’s a damn shame, but it’s just not the financially prudent move.


--- Quote from: "heretik" ---Training or educating parents to learn how to communicate with their child, is this wrong. I would think this could always be beneficial, whether in a program or not.
--- End quote ---
How can that be done with the family excluded from contact or for that matter when the only inclusion for the family as participants comes from those programs that have engaged in practices that subvert the family bonds by  kid swapping  placements in host homes or from those programs where parent's participation is limited to attending meetings  separate from the child wherein the damaging labels are perpetuated and divisive concepts applied rather than emphasizing communication and cohesion?

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---You keep talking about the environment these children are in is restricted, should it be otherwise. I would think not if you are trying to correct destructive thinking which leads to bad behavior, we are talking for a short period of time. Yes it is the "attitude" that is the most watched at first, because your attitude tells people what is going on with you. Bad attitude along with bad behavior does bring discipline.
--- End quote ---
If you’re speaking of purely Juvenile Justice that is a different topic. Therapy is not authentically therapeutic when it is punitive—therefore in appropriate.  
Additionally, Your comment that this is for a short time is presumptuously broad. Many programs are restrictive throughout and others rely heavily on systems that demand compliance with the very tactics that are the subject of this area of the forum. Also, that does not take in to account the vary many accounts here of recent programs associated with one another that will hold a child for long spans of time (years) and others who routinely refer to from one program setting designed for a given duration to still others for “continued care”.

--- Quote from: "heretik" ---[Your comment here below Awake is poignant, in so far as this paragraph you wrote could be thought to resemble every working environment here in this democratic country we live in…
--- End quote ---
Wow, your reply to ^ comment was rather poignant in its’ own  way.  I would be very interested in reading your CV. I’m not really soliciting /anticipating a pm—just expressing my curiosity at that statement. While there can be overly simplified comparisons drawn from really vague understanding of the context of terms like training within a given post...(some corporate retreats aside)I just don’t agree that our country has sunk so low that all employment opportunities include the coercive thought reform endemic to programs being discussed on this thread. I mean gosh sure a residency is going to come with some training (I would hope so) and even some sleep deprivation...but that does not mean that by the time one has moved on to their fellowship that they are indoctrinated.

heretik:

--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "heretik" ---So back to my point they are either extremely uneducated, in denial/delusional or they believe what they are doing/practicing is working.
--- End quote ---

All of the above.  Usually the program owners/directors are clued in to the fact that it's basically a scam, but even some of those were once staff and simply believe they have the one true way to help kids.  As to how they can implement such elaborate tactics without knowing what they're doing?  They learned from predecessors who designed the system.  Most programs today are basically cult copycats.  They might not have designed (or even understand) the thought reform system/processes, but they implement what they were taught and from their perspective, it "works".  It does provide dramatic results while the participant is in the program.  It's a dramatic illusion for the staff as well.
--- End quote ---

I got caught up in Awakes answer to this other poster that I neglected to respond to your comments. Not that I'm sure you were holding your breath. :)
Thanks for your direct summation of what I was driving at here. It can be very confusing for someone not educated on treatment programs to understand the elaborate processes of a everyday program.
I wonder if the employees were trained properly and had experience would these thought reform processes still provide a viable education for the participant. Does thought reform work, is it a suitable model, can we expect positive results if instituted properly.
A question here that has crossed my mind, it goes along with the comment I made concerning work environments, is there not thought reform happening in practically all work,educational and family settings to a greater or lesser degree.
I am not bringing this up to rationalize the atrocities going on in programs people here have talked about, just trying to understand how it all transpires.
I have heard words spoke here concerning re-education, thought reform and others I can't remember right now and I am trying to understand.
I am reading more and I have to say that sitting in a chair or standing in front of a room is a hell of a way to be re-educated. Not very subtle. I get this type of overt thought reform also to include the violent yelling at one another during groups and the emasculation you received by your peers while experiencing a "haircut".
I want to get at the more subtle reformation of the mind that went on/goes on in a program. How is this happening.

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