General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
What illegal drugs would you legalize?
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---Well it obviously works for the people attending, otherwise they wouldn't show up. It's not up to you, or me, to decide what works for other people, that's their choice. People have different needs and seek them out in different ways. Organizations like AA and even Scientology must offer something to the people who attend, otherwise why would they go? Mass brainwashing? Different strokes for different folks. If people can get off drugs or alcohol with religion, or whatever, good for them. Whatever works.
--- End quote ---
That's your belief....fine, but AA tries to convince people that they'll die without AA ***. I have a problem with that and want to see the truth told. Have you nothing to say about Vaillant's study (George E. Vaillant, M.D., member AA's General Service Board) that shows that AA actually increases binge drinking (not to mention the date rate among alcoholics) and thus endangers people? Please try and see past your own bias and don't shoot the messenger (Orange Papers). Really take a look at the study, which happens to be on Orange Papers because AA doesn't really want the study publicized.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
***12&12 p.174, Tradition Nine
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Anne Bonney" ---
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" --- If it didn't work, people wouldn't show up, and AA would cease to exist.
--- End quote ---
A lot of people show up to Scientology 'services' and swear that it 'works'. Doesn't make it true or make them any less a cult.
Just because something is popular or has captured the attention of pop-culture (Dr. Drew, "Dr." Phil, "Dr." Laura etc), doesn't mean it "works".
--- End quote ---
On the reverse there are few people who have stated that programs didnt work for them, but that doesnt mean that programs are ineffective. It just means that their individual experience was great.
--- End quote ---
The burden of proof is upon those claiming efficacy.
Maximilian:
--- Quote from: "Anne Bonney" --- AA tries to convince people that they'll die without AA ***. I have a problem with that and want to see the truth told.
--- End quote ---
Well some people do die if they don't get sober. So it is the truth, I don't know how you can claim it isn't. What is your "truth" that you want to see told? To me it seems like you have a similar, yet slightly different interpretation of addiction and how to treat it than AA, and instead of embracing the similarities and good aspects of AA you dismiss it completely based on select examples of what you view as inaccuracies. To me this is like the differences between similar religions, in the scheme of things the differences are relatively minor and everyone who attends, no matter what the sect, is a believer in some form or another. In this case of AA I am not a preacher, I am just a believer who will go from church to church seeking answers, I am a non denominational addict seeking answers. I've gone to rehab and read books that aren't based on AA. I've also gone to AA meetings, and to me it's an effective self help group filled with amazing and selfless people who just want to help others, while at the same time helping themselves. Nitpicking terminology or isolated quotes in Aa ideology to me, misses the point entirely. Like arguing over scriptural differences between sects, when in the end all I seek is God. The only truth in addiction is what works for people, and for a lot of people that's AA. I'm not an AA scholar, I don't have any answers other than my own opinion that I think it helped me.
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---
--- Quote from: "Anne Bonney" --- AA tries to convince people that they'll die without AA ***. I have a problem with that and want to see the truth told.
--- End quote ---
Well some people do die if they don't get sober. So it is the truth, I don't know how you can claim it isn't.
--- End quote ---
You're moving the goalposts. Getting sober does not equal AA. People aren't going to die if they leave AA, even if the do have a problem. There are other options.
--- Quote --- What is your "truth" that you want to see told?
--- End quote ---
That....People aren't going to die if they leave AA, even if the do have a problem. That there are other options. That AA is more a religion than a simple self help group. That it often raises the binge drinking and death rate of alcoholics.
--- Quote ---To me it seems like you have a similar, yet slightly different interpretation of addiction and how to treat it than AA, and instead of embracing the similarities and good aspects of AA you dismiss it completely based on select examples of what you view as inaccuracies.
--- End quote ---
I dismiss it because it tries to tell people that AA is the only way, i.e. the 12 & 12 saying that if they leave they "surely are signing their own death warrant". That's not true and it's dangerous to convince people that it is.
--- Quote ---To me this is like the differences between similar religions, in the scheme of things the differences are relatively minor and everyone who attends, no matter what the sect, is a believer in some form or another.
--- End quote ---
I agree....AA completely smacks of religion. So then, what becomes of the non-believers? Just as religion isn't "the" answer for everyone, neither is AA despite the dire warnings of someone signing their own death warrant if they reject AA's path.
--- Quote --- In this case of AA I am not a preacher,
--- End quote ---
Coulda fooled me.
--- Quote ---Nitpicking terminology or isolated quotes in Aa ideology to me, misses the point entirely.
--- End quote ---
I don't think it's nitpicking to point out that their own guy's study revealed that AA not only didn't "work", it often caused binge drinking and raised the death rate among alcoholics. He chooses to leave that nit out when he speaks of AA.
--- Quote ---Like arguing over scriptural differences between sects, when in the end all I seek is God. The only truth in addiction is what works for people, and for a lot of people that's AA. I'm not an AA scholar, I don't have any answers other than my own opinion that I think it helped me.
--- End quote ---
Ok
psy:
OK ok ok. Sort of my fault but I think this thread has veered a bit off-topic. If we're going to talk about AA or the disease concept, let's talk about it as it relates to drug prohibition. A debate on whether AA works is something better suited to the Addiction Treatment Philosophies forum.
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