General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
What illegal drugs would you legalize?
Maximilian:
--- Quote from: "Anne Bonney" ---]
If you can't see the difference between an adult being responsible for their own actions and a child being forced into a "rehab", I can't help you.
--- End quote ---
But Anne, I never asked for your help, nor do I need it. Why is an adult responsible for their own actions, but a teenager is not? I am willing to take responsibility for my own role in why I ended up in a program, and the choices I made that led to that eventuality. I was not an innocent victim, or a child of ignorant and naive parents with more money than sense, duped by the evil program OZ into enrolling me for no reason at all. I made a series of poor choices that led me into the program, the road to the program was paved in my own bad choices. One of those decisions was to use drugs, I made that choice. but somewhere on that path I lost control, and what was a choice became a compulsion, a physical and psychological addiction. At that point, choice no longer mattered. I kept using until I almost died, and kept using after that even. I "choose" to remain sober now, because it's not a choice whether I use drugs or not, it's a choice of whether I live or die. At this point I choose to live. I better understand this choice now that I have been through rehab, and AA and understand the true nature of that choice.
But to boil down the issue of addiction to choice, is too simplistic, in my opinion. It ignores too much, and I can't or wouldn't ever suggest to people the solution is that easy. For me sobriety is an everyday struggle. Perhaps for some people, and I do believe most people actually, it's as simple as choosing whether not to use a substance, in a rational way. In my own mind, it's much more complicated than that. there is something inside me that compels me to work against my own self interest. Some people call this addiction, other people call it mental illness, and others even call it the Devil. Whatever it is, if it were so easy to simply wish it away, and choose to not be under it's influence I would have done it a long time ago. It's not that simple, for me at least.
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---If you can buy an eight ball for $5, isn't it more likely that more people will use
--- End quote ---
No. I don't know of anyone who isn't interested in cocaine that's going to all of a sudden become interested because it's cheaper. It might mean that we'd see an initial jump in people who already have an interest in it using, but I doubt (just my opinion, I know - but I think there is actual research that supports it) that it would create many actual 'new users'.
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---We see the effects of alcohol, the car crashes, the family devastation due to alcoholism.
--- End quote ---
So, should we go back to Prohibition days?
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" --- The fact people will risk their freedom and commit crimes just to buy more drugs, I think, shows just how powerful a grip that addiction can be. Nothing rational about it, so to ask addicts to make rational choices is a non starter.
--- End quote ---
Depends on your definition of "addict". Mine is someone who is physically addicted to a substance.....that they experience physical withdrawal symptoms - higher heart rate/blood pressure and then, conversely, extreme low blood pressure, cold sweats, diarrhea, vomiting etc. - when denied the substance.
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---We don't recommend exorcisms for people hearing voices any longer, because eventually science caught up and figured out what was actually happening. The same will happen with addiction, eventually, but right now people do their best with what's available.
--- End quote ---
Because it's been so ingrained into society now that the 12 step method is virtually the only way (just as exorcism was viewed as), there's very little interest in finding/funding something new.
psy:
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" ---Stealing is just a symptom of drug addiction, caused in part by the high price of drugs due to prohibition. So let's say they are made legal and the price plummets, is that going to affect the number of people who get addicted to drugs? If you can buy an eight ball for $5, isn't it more likely that more people will use, and use to a degree that causes them addiction and health problems?
--- End quote ---
OK, Max. I have an assignment for you. I want you to go out and ask random non-drug-users whether they've been just dying to try smack but have avoided it simply because it's illegal. When you find that one guy, the one nobody has ever met, bring him here.
See this survey.
If hard drugs such as heroin or cocaine were legalized would you be likely to use them? 99% SAY "NO"
--- Quote ---It comes down to what society would rather deal with, criminals stealing to support a drug habit of an expensive drug. Or less crime related to stealing for drugs, and more DUI, and the other problems associated with legal use of substances. We see the effects of alcohol, the car crashes, the family devastation due to alcoholism. Might legal drugs lead to similar issues? That is definitely a possibility. But as long as people are no longer breaking into homes or stealing car stereos, is that a worthy trade off?
--- End quote ---
The same argument I just made above applies here. Legality of a substance is not likely to affect use. It's not likely to affect whether or not people drive under the influence. I'm not advocating letting people drive under the influence of smack or whatever. I think that what's done with alcohol should be done with drugs. Drugs should be evaluated on an indiviudal basis and reasonable limits should be set. An even better approach would be not to test for substances, but to test ability (for intoxication). If a person can't complete a test of ability, regardless of cause, they should be charged with reckless endangerment or even attempted murder. I'm all in favor of throwing the book at people who endanger others in such a manner and not at all in favor of letting them off with a few AA meetings.
--- Quote ---This view is why so often people get so frustrated dealing with friends, or family members who are alcoholics/addicts. It's not as simple as choosing to be a good person, or a bad person. I don't know anyone who would choose to be an alcoholic or addict, it doesn't make any sense.
--- End quote ---
Maybe they are using it to deal with or otherwise coping with an actual disease. I do agree compulsive substance use can be a symptom of disease, but i'll never accept that a conscious behavior in itself, however repetitive, can constituted a disease. People choose to do irrational things all the time. People jump off bridges. They gamble (no substances there). They are otherwise self destructive. Sometimes they hate themselves. Sometimes they're depressed. Sometimes there is some other mental illness.
--- Quote ---There's something more to it, something that we currently do not understand fully. We don't recommend exorcisms for people hearing voices any longer, because eventually science caught up and figured out what was actually happening. The same will happen with addiction, eventually, but right now people do their best with what's available.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but AA is not science. It's more akin the the exorcism you talk about. AA was never science based. It was and is faith-based. The problem, like in the dark ages, is that it's gained so much influence those who dare speak ill of it or present addiction as a choice get burned at the stake as heretics. There is no scientific basis behind the commonly held belief that addiction is a disease. There *may* be genetic influence (even that is weak) but even if a person is born to "like" a substances more than others, it's still just a sliding scale of desire, not an overwhelming compulsion.
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "Maximilian" --- Why is an adult responsible for their own actions, but a teenager is not?
--- End quote ---
Because they're children with still developing and growing brains.
--- Quote ---I am willing to take responsibility for my own role in why I ended up in a program, and the choices I made that led to that eventuality. I was not an innocent victim, or a child of ignorant and naive parents with more money than sense, duped by the evil program OZ into enrolling me for no reason at all.
--- End quote ---
Good for you. I was an innocent victim of Straight.
--- Quote ---I made a series of poor choices that led me into the program, the road to the program was paved in my own bad choices. One of those decisions was to use drugs, I made that choice. but somewhere on that path I lost control, and what was a choice became a compulsion, a physical and psychological addiction.
--- End quote ---
Ok....I didn't and I was still sent off to Straight and abused.
--- Quote ---But to boil down the issue of addiction to choice, is too simplistic, in my opinion. It ignores too much, and I can't or wouldn't ever suggest to people the solution is that easy. For me sobriety is an everyday struggle. Perhaps for some people, and I do believe most people actually, it's as simple as choosing whether not to use a substance, in a rational way. In my own mind, it's much more complicated than that. there is something inside me that compels me to work against my own self interest. Some people call this addiction, other people call it mental illness, and others even call it the Devil. Whatever it is, if it were so easy to simply wish it away, and choose to not be under it's influence I would have done it a long time ago. It's not that simple, for me at least.
--- End quote ---
Ok
psy:
--- Quote from: "Anne Bonney" ---Depends on your definition of "addict". Mine is someone who is physically addicted to a substance.....that they experience physical withdrawal symptoms - higher heart rate/blood pressure and then, conversely, extreme low blood pressure, cold sweats, diarrhea, vomiting etc. - when denied the substance.
--- End quote ---
Right, but even then, people can still choose whether they want to commit crimes, or whether they want to take the steps to quit. There are drugs that can help with withdrawals and people who have been as you describe have put their lives back together.
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