How to Manipulate your way out of a program

[Samara]

Max, if you want to say the ends justifies the means, then fine.  That is your opinion. I have tremendous ethical and moral issues with this statement.

But, if you insinuate that we all deserved to suffer abuse at our programs, I would question have to question your humanity. The ends does not justify the means. People I have loved have suffered horribly at these programs - I cannot condone what happned to them. Most were not addicts. Most were teenagers. But if they were suicidal or addicts I still would not advocate abusive psychodynamics.

This is not an effort to deflect responsbility from our actions. Part and parcel of teenage-hood is rebelling, questionning, clarifying, and experimenting. Some make worser choices than others.

Maybe your parents, mentors, and staff members were angels of mercy. I cannot say. But it would be odd if you and only you were the reason you were so fucked up. I am sure the situation was a bit more multifactorial.

In any event, it is NEVER helpful to place a child in an ABUSIVE facility.

[Anne Bonney]

Ya know....I really don't understand this reluctance to name the program he was supposedly in.  If it was so wonderful and non-abusive, surely it would be able to withstand scrutiny, right?  I honestly cant' think of any rational reason not to name a program that someone truly believes "saved their life".

[Maximilian]

Max, if you want to say the ends justifies the means, then fine.  That is your opinion. I have tremendous ethical and moral issues with this statement.

But, if you insinuate that we all deserved to suffer abuse at our programs, I would question have to question your humanity. The ends does not justify the means. People I have loved have suffered horribly at these programs - I cannot condone what happned to them. Most were not addicts. Most were teenagers. But if they were suicidal or addicts I still would not advocate abusive psychodynamics.

This is not an effort to deflect responsbility from our actions. Part and parcel of teenage-hood is rebelling, questionning, clarifying, and experimenting. Some make worser choices than others.

Maybe your parents, mentors, and staff members were angels of mercy. I cannot say. But it would be odd if you and only you were the reason you were so fucked up. I am sure the situation was a bit more multifactorial.

In any event, it is NEVER helpful to place a child in an ABUSIVE facility.

I was never abused. So the ends that resulted in the means of me still existing were strict yes, but not abusive. I don't think abusing a kid is going to help them in any way, I don't advocate the abuse of children. But I don't agree that everyday events in programs are abusive. Yes, we read on fornits about staff being abusive, and being held accountable sometimes for it. But I don't believe abuse is a part of program curriculum. I don't consider being held against your will abusive, I don't consider LGAT sessions abusive, I don't consider isolation in of itself as abuse if it's used for a necessary reason. These things are not considered abuse under the law, it's only considered abuse on fornits. You can question my humanity all you want, it won't change my own experience though. I'm not telling anybody that anything did or didn't happen to them. I can only report on my own experiences and what I saw. As far as I know, nobody who posts on fornits was in the program with me. If people say they were abused, fair enough. I wasn't, why can't I be given the same respect instead of being dismissed.

[Maximilian]

Ya know....I really don't understand this reluctance to name the program he was supposedly in.  If it was so wonderful and non-abusive, surely it would be able to withstand scrutiny, right?  I honestly cant' think of any rational reason not to name a program that someone truly believes "saved their life".

I don't owe you an explanation for what I choose to keep private. If my agenda was to sell programs and that was my job, you're right I'd post 10 links in my signature to various programs that pay referral fees. But that's not my agenda, it's just to share my experiences and opinions. Perhaps you cannot imagine a reason why somebody would want to wish to keep this info to themselves, well I have my reasons, but I am not required to explain why. You are free to disregard me and ignore my posts, as is everybody.

[Anne Bonney]

Ya know....I really don't understand this reluctance to name the program he was supposedly in.  If it was so wonderful and non-abusive, surely it would be able to withstand scrutiny, right?  I honestly cant' think of any rational reason not to name a program that someone truly believes "saved their life".

I don't owe you an explanation for what I choose to keep private. If my agenda was to sell programs and that was my job, you're right I'd post 10 links in my signature to various programs that pay referral fees. But that's not my agenda, it's just to share my experiences and opinions. Perhaps you cannot imagine a reason why somebody would want to wish to keep this info to themselves, well I have my reasons, but I am not required to explain why. You are free to disregard me and ignore my posts, as is everybody.

And we do.  If it was the great place you profess it to be, it would be able to stand up to scrutiny.  So, it's logical to conclude that you either know it won't, or you didn't actually attend a program.  You're a fake either way.

[Maximilian]

Ya know....I really don't understand this reluctance to name the program he was supposedly in.  If it was so wonderful and non-abusive, surely it would be able to withstand scrutiny, right?  I honestly cant' think of any rational reason not to name a program that someone truly believes "saved their life".

I don't owe you an explanation for what I choose to keep private. If my agenda was to sell programs and that was my job, you're right I'd post 10 links in my signature to various programs that pay referral fees. But that's not my agenda, it's just to share my experiences and opinions. Perhaps you cannot imagine a reason why somebody would want to wish to keep this info to themselves, well I have my reasons, but I am not required to explain why. You are free to disregard me and ignore my posts, as is everybody.

And we do.  If it was the great place you profess it to be, it would be able to stand up to scrutiny.  So, it's logical to conclude that you either know it won't, or you didn't actually attend a program.  You're a fake either way.

This tactic has been tried before. I am not willing to trade my private info for token gifts of credibility by posters who already question me, despite me not naming a program. I won't jump through your hoops, because I really don't care if you believe me or not.

[Anne Bonney]

Ya know....I really don't understand this reluctance to name the program he was supposedly in.  If it was so wonderful and non-abusive, surely it would be able to withstand scrutiny, right?  I honestly cant' think of any rational reason not to name a program that someone truly believes "saved their life".

I don't owe you an explanation for what I choose to keep private. If my agenda was to sell programs and that was my job, you're right I'd post 10 links in my signature to various programs that pay referral fees. But that's not my agenda, it's just to share my experiences and opinions. Perhaps you cannot imagine a reason why somebody would want to wish to keep this info to themselves, well I have my reasons, but I am not required to explain why. You are free to disregard me and ignore my posts, as is everybody.

And we do.  If it was the great place you profess it to be, it would be able to stand up to scrutiny.  So, it's logical to conclude that you either know it won't, or you didn't actually attend a program.  You're a fake either way.

This tactic has been tried before. I am not willing to trade my private info for token gifts of credibility by posters who already question me, despite me not naming a program. I won't jump through your hoops, because I really don't care if you believe me or not.

It's not a tactic...it's a simple fact.  If it was so benign and truly saved your life you wouldn't have a problem naming it, but you know what would happen if you did.  What little credibility you think you have left would disappear but quickly.

As I said, either way you're a fake.

[Maximilian]

You're a fake either way.

As I said, either way you're a fake.

Read your own words carefully. You have now said twice that either way, if I release information I don't want to, or not, you will consider me a fake. So what do I gain if I release information I choose not to? Like you said, either way, you'll believe I'm fake. If it helps people maintain their views on treatment by dismissing me as a fake, that's up to them. It doesn't bother me at all whether people accuse me of being the easter bunny or santa clause, or a program parent, or Whooter. I will still continue to share my opinions based on my own experiences regardless of whether people believe me or not. I know what's true and that is what matters most, I'm not overly concerned how other people choose to respond to me.

[Anne Bonney]

You're a fake either way.

As I said, either way you're a fake.

Read your own words carefully. You have now said twice that either way, if I release information I don't want to, or not, you will consider me a fake. So what do I gain if I release information I choose not to? Like you said, either way, you'll believe I'm fake. If it helps people maintain their views on treatment by dismissing me as a fake, that's up to them. It doesn't bother me at all whether people accuse me of being the easter bunny or santa clause, or a program parent, or Whooter. I will still continue to share my opinions based on my own experiences regardless of whether people believe me or not. I know what's true and that is what matters most, I'm not overly concerned how other people choose to respond to me.

As per usual, you misread what I've written.  And it's funny that you jump to the conclusion that I think you're Whooter.  I don't and I never said anything like that.  I commented on your use of ha,ha....you chose to connect that to Whooter.  Wonder why?

[Samara]

Max, I'm not going to tell you what your experience is. That would be stupid. However, you cannot deny or mitigate the experiences of others.

If my kid wanted to die, I would not subject him to a program based on daily sustained humiliation, anxiety, verbal abuse and histrionics. I also do not believe that LGATs conducted in isolation and deprivation in a highly contrived atmosphere is appropriate for children.  Emotional terrorism = not good. You can do good shit without it.  Now, maybe your program did not practice these modalities, but mine and its ever mutating spin-offs did and sure as shit, Straight did...

So, cool beans that you loved the ass off your programs, and I am glad you are not dead. But try and entertain the idea that many other people were not so lucky.

[Samara]

And another thing I find odd. If a program saved my life and I now swam in a perpetual bowl of cherries as a result, I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time posting here.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Maximilian]

It isn't advice. I suggest you read the post more carefully. I made a thread a while ago about realistic advice on how teenagers should handle themselves in a program, you can search for it if you like.

[Whooter]

And another thing I find odd. If a program saved my life and I now swam in a perpetual bowl of cherries as a result, I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time posting here.

This is very true and a good point, Samara, the kids who do well just move on and don’t look back.  They view it as a speed bump in the road of their life and that’s all.  It’s the few who were harmed by the programs or didn’t apply themselves and therefore didn’t do well who post here.  

Think about it logically.  If you were to man the phones at Walmart Customer service how many phone calls do you think you would get telling you how great their new flat panel screen was vs the number of people who would call saying they had trouble.  Which group of people would be more likely to go out of their way to call Walmart?  The ones who plugged  in their set and it didn’t work or the ones who had no problems?



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[Samara]

Are you seriously suggesting it is the posters' fault for not applying themsleves to an abusive program? Seriously?

Ok - so your assertion is that there are NO abusive programs. Anyone here who claims they did go through an abusive program as well as everyone off site who claims the same is LYING and didn't aplly themselves properly? Wow.

I am asking Max why he spends so much time here when the program saved his life and everyone here is according to him, a loser. I am wondering why you live here when you could be focusing on saving more youths in your program. It really just defies understanding.

If I thought everyone here was a liar and if I were as apathetic to the abuse they experienced as you are, I would not waste my time. To do so would only prove I am sadistic, rather than merely ignorant.

You are super talented at twisting stuff around though -  did you take classes for that or does it come naturally?