Making Amends

[Botched Programming]

Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober.  Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight.  They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet?  Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.

I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.



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Who... I do not feel threatened in any way by AA, however my opinion of them remains to be a step cult... I really think we have spent more than enough time discussing it, at this point it is clear to see we are both closed minded to the others opinion. Why don't we just allow the AA threads die a natural death and let the readers move on to something else... If you look at Antigen's post "You're Special" You might see it applies not only to me, but you as well.

Peace
 :peace:

[Whooter]

Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.

Its a life long commitment.  In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day.  But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new.  Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.  
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease.  People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in.  But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.



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[Botched Programming]

Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.

Its a life long commitment.  In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day. But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new.  Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.  
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease.  People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in.  But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.



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(1) In the beginning is where people are the most vulnerable and listen to the dogmatic suggestions, 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, and start working on steps.... The Propaganda is at this point like mind control, if you don't do these things guilt sets in lowering self esteem and rational independent thought. And yes it can become a life long process of being dependent on the cults group think mentality...
(2)The lucky ones after years open their freaking eyes and realize what a crock this stuff is... Hell I like drinking guilt free beers and dabbling in TBPITW..

Peace
 :peace:

[Whooter]

Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.

Its a life long commitment.  In the beginning there are many people who look for meetings all over the place to find one that fits them and they attend a few times a week and call their sponsor every day. But after a few years or ten years then maybe you dont need it as much or you start to help others who are new.  Learning is a lifetime commitment and we need to continue to learn in order to survive, but it doesnt mean we need to attend school 8 hours a day our whole lives.  
As far as the disease classification I am sure you could still get a lot out of AA even if you felt it wasnt a disease.  People can take away from the experience anything they like you dont need to buy into every aspect of it.
If there was evidence that AA lowered a persons quality of life or caused them harm then I could see trying to step in.  But I havent seen any evidence of that here in these threads at all.



...

(1) In the beginning is where people are the most vulnerable and listen to the dogmatic suggestions, 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, and start working on steps.... The Propaganda is at this point like mind control, if you don't do these things quilt sets in lowering self esteem and rational independent thought. And yes it can become a life long process of being dependent on the cluts group think mentality...
(2)The lucky ones after years open their freaking eyes and realize what a crock this stuff is... Hell I like drinking guilt free beers and dabbling in TBPITW..

Peace
 :peace:

In the beginning is when they need the most help.  After a few years they manage their lives much better and can begin to step away from being attached to everyone else and attending so many meetings.  They learn a new routine, a new way to approach life and deal with the stresses in it.  After awhile it becomes common place and a part of them.  Pretty soon they become more independent from AA.


I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.



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[Botched Programming]

I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.



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And you never will with a closed mind !!!

Peace
 :peace:

[Whooter]

I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.



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And you never will with a closed mind !!!

Peace
 :peace:

If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it, Botched.  You are the one stepping in and putting fliers on the windshields.  I am open minded and accept people who embrace AA and also those who feel it doesnt work.  I just dont think it is healthy to spend so much time attacking one side or the other.  It is just opinions and if they work for a portion of the population then its okay.  I am open minded to consider both sides of the argument.  Once you alienate one side, though and label them and cant see their point of view then you begin to close down your mind, which you have done.



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[Botched Programming]

I still don't think this is anything evil or where it hurts anyone.



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And you never will with a closed mind !!!

Peace
 :peace:

If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it, Botched.  You are the one stepping in and putting fliers on the windshields.  I am open minded and accept people who embrace AA and also those who feel it doesnt work.  I just dont think it is healthy to spend so much time attacking one side or the other.  It is just opinions and if they work for a portion of the population then its okay.  I am open minded to consider both sides of the argument.  Once you alienate one side, though and label them and cant see their point of view then you begin to close down your mind, which you have done.



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As far as me putting my fliers on windshields it is no worse than the propaganda that they hand out in treatment centers and jails. My flier only affects the ones with the open mind to what they say.. No more harmful than the ones they distribute. They have a Public Relations sub-committee and I am just one person in one area.. You seem to be threatened by my actions of putting out information and letting people decide for themselves... Strange indeed... :seg:

Peace
 :peace:

[DannyB II]

Whooter does have a cool avatar but uncool ideas about AA. I really loathe those 12 steps. Yes the 7 steps of Straight were taken directly from the 12 but thats not why I hate them. My hatred of the 12 steps revolves primarily around the fact that the steps teach people that they are powerless over drugs and alcohol so consequently they will need AA for the rest of their lives to stay off the dope. Its like if i could convice people that the only way to breathe was with the air that I alone can provide them. To me that whole underlying principle behind the powerless/its a disease theory is just plain fucked up.

Dude your ego is so busy denying the inevitable, you hate AA because it was shoved down your throat while you attended Straight. Guys it is OK, to say this. Everyone but you, already knows this.

[DannyB II]

BP, you made amends, stop making excuses for your amends.

[Botched Programming]

BP, you made amends, stop making excuses for your amends.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  You are a hoot Danny-Boi !!!!!  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[Che Gookin]

My suggestion is to hold Danny accountable for his threats with a consequence. Each and every time he threatens a member of fornits, we consequence him by delivering fliers to the poor dimwitted drunks that need them the most.

[RTP2003]

Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober.  Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight.  They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet?  Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.

I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.



...

Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power".  If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.

[Whooter]

Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober.  Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight.  They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet?  Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.

I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.



...

Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power".  If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.

lol



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[iJust]

Ganja Ackbar!

[Che Gookin]

Lets say that they were not there discussing ways to stay sober.  Lets say that instead they were a group of survivors who shared a common struggle of dealing with their time spent at straight.  They chipped in each week for coffee and donuts and support each other with their stories and helping each other get through another few days. Would you still feel a strong sense that these people should not meet?  Would you try to disband this group of survivors because they had become a Cult (by your definition) or would their cause allow you to turn a blind eye to them and allow them to meet because you understood their need to meet.

I think if you took the time to understand their need to meet and the comfort it is to them to know there was a support group out there for them you would not feel so threatened by them.



...

Yeah but our cult would be way cooler than yours 'cause we would be drinking, taking drugs, and fornicating our way through the next few days with or without the help of some theoretical "higher power".  If we did form a cult such as the one of which you speak, it would be so much cooler and exclusive than AA that assholes like yourself would not even be aware of it's existence until we started a jihad and eliminated you and your sorry ilk from the face of the Earth.

:rocker:


I'm in...