Author Topic: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS  (Read 2462 times)

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Offline Froderik

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ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« on: September 01, 2010, 03:10:14 PM »
tHe discussions on here seem to have reached a sort of impasse as of right now.

It's at this point when I start thinking I don't really care that much about AA one way or the other (I'm glad I was never forced into going, though.)

It's at times like this when I wish people would stop typing and agree to disagree, because the conversations don't seem to be going anywhere.

If you think these statements are apathetic, consider the fact that I'm tired of the relentless (and pointless) arguing and puerile name-calling coming from either side of the discussion.

And maybe there is something to that comment DB made about the Florida AA chapters being more fucked up than the rest of them... and that would be just one aspect of how fucked up that whole state really is; I guess it wouldn't surprise me. Sembler, Newton, both from fucking FLORIDA. Fuck Florida.
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Offline liarsexposed

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 09:39:00 PM »
Frod
It occurs to me,that Danny is not endorsing AA,nor opposing it. He is simply posting BS in a place he knows he can get the most attention from. I dont even know how this guy could claim to put in a full-honest day's work,as most of the day,like any other for a long time,are used to argue a point he knows he cannot,and will not win. I dont think Danny is a dummy. Seems I remember him saying something to the effect of "teaching others/showing a "different side of AA .. Educational info here promoting blah blah blah
Its all horseshit
Its an insationable need for someone to talk to. I bet he drove his mom and dad INSANE long before he did drugs or drank. He used some "Program Speak" to defend his defacing of AA and its traditions.. "Whatever keeps me sane and sober" I believe was the phrase he used.. Atta boy Danny.. Now we know you have been to a few meetings. However,that doesnt make a person sober,or sane. Perhaps if you were sober,looking to do the right thing by someone else,you would find your nearest soup kitchen and REALLY DO THE DEAL. Salvation Army is in every city in the US. Thats REAL service work
This game he is playing on here deserves no more mention,and hasnt for a long time. Yet people engage him every day. I suspect its similar to a trainwreck,natural disaster,hurricane,tornado.. We gotta look
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Offline Froderik

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 02:31:38 PM »
Why doesn't Fornits start an Alcoholics Anonymous forum?

It's a shame the Open Free for All forum has to get mucked up with AA threads.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 02:36:17 PM »
Just a little reality check.

IN the top 20 threads in the Open Free for All first page there are 4 AA threads.

1 posted by me

1 posted by Psy

2 posted by Botched Programming

Well, 5 if you consider this thread also an AA thread, started by Froderik.

HOW CAN PEOPLE NAVIGATE THROUGH SUCH CONFUSION?  :beat:

But I actually do think it's a good idea to create an AA forum, as long as it's completely unmoderated like this Open Free for All is (that is why I think people post so many threads here, they don't want moderation)
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Just a little reality check.

IN the top 20 threads in the Open Free for All first page there are 4 AA threads.

1 posted by me

1 posted by Psy

2 posted by Botched Programming

Well, 5 if you consider this thread also an AA thread, started by Froderik.

HOW CAN PEOPLE NAVIGATE THROUGH SUCH CONFUSION?  :beat:

But I actually do think it's a good idea to create an AA forum, as long as it's completely unmoderated like this Open Free for All is (that is why I think people post so many threads here, they don't want moderation)


Looking for "Justification and Rationalization" ??
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Offline psy

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 04:05:29 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I actually do think it's a good idea to create an AA forum, as long as it's completely unmoderated like this Open Free for All is (that is why I think people post so many threads here, they don't want moderation)

Everybody i've talked to this seems to agree it's a good idea to either do that or move the threads to the drama box.  I'll talk to Ginger and let ya'll know what we decide.  Perhaps a dedicated AA forum which is "opt in" would be appropriate, given that so many people are finding it distracting.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 04:29:07 PM »
Just to be clear I don't want any of my threads currently in the Open free for all moved. But I will start new threads in the new AA forum if it's unmoderated, and also doesn't require a password like the Drama box which makes it annoying to get into.  Thanks.
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 04:42:49 PM »
My vote Psy is the dramabox as the only people discussing in it are Max, Anne, myself and possibly Danny... No one else here has any care about it.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 05:42:25 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I actually do think it's a good idea to create an AA forum, as long as it's completely unmoderated like this Open Free for All is (that is why I think people post so many threads here, they don't want moderation)

Everybody i've talked to this seems to agree it's a good idea to either do that or move the threads to the drama box.  I'll talk to Ginger and let ya'll know what we decide.  Perhaps a dedicated AA forum which is "opt in" would be appropriate, given that so many people are finding it distracting.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, What in hells bells is going on here.
Psy, just because you do not like AA, you can decide from a bigoted stance to throw it in the drama box, like some bastard child. People find it distracting, well to bad, people find a lot of topics around here distracting. AA, is a fixture in the TTI and whether you like it or not, more kids and young adults after treatment visit AA. Whether folks here, like it or not, it is a discussion here just like the constant debating here about abusive programs.
Maybe everyone should be asking themselves why all the reaction. So having a AA forum is going to be a PM vote with your buddies. Please don't come back and say you have not heard from countless whiners about the AA threads.
I can only hope that Ginger realizes AA is just as important to the TTI as any other program. It deserves conversation just like the other contentious topics we have had here.
Let me moderate it, if the topic seems stupid and lacks merit I will get rid of it. By all means do not ban AA for the very reasons Anne does not like the controlling nature of it as I see the help in it.
NO,NO NO I do not agree we throw AA, in a forum that the public can not see without a password. THis conversation needs to stay out in the front yard like every other topic.
Once again just because folks do not like the AA threads including the administrators, does not mean it is right to throw it in the cellar so we do not have to see it. The "OPT IN" is bullshit, Psy and you know this.

Danny
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:48:54 PM by DannyB II »
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Offline Botched Programming

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 05:47:37 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me moderate it, if the topic seems stupid and lacks merit I will get rid of it. By all means do not ban AA for the very reasons Anne does not like the controlling nature of it as I see the help in it.


Like you have maturity and mental capacity to be a moderator....    :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 05:50:35 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me moderate it, if the topic seems stupid and lacks merit I will get rid of it. By all means do not ban AA for the very reasons Anne does not like the controlling nature of it as I see the help in it.


Like you have maturity and mental capacity to be a moderator....    :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


Jeesh BP, I have enough marbles to own and run a business with 125 employees, I think I can handle you.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 10:09:56 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I actually do think it's a good idea to create an AA forum, as long as it's completely unmoderated like this Open Free for All is (that is why I think people post so many threads here, they don't want moderation)

Everybody i've talked to this seems to agree it's a good idea to either do that or move the threads to the drama box.  I'll talk to Ginger and let ya'll know what we decide.  Perhaps a dedicated AA forum which is "opt in" would be appropriate, given that so many people are finding it distracting.

Thanks, I agree an unmoderated forum dedicated to AA would be a good solution!  :tup:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:12:22 AM by Froderik »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 10:12:04 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
I can only hope that Ginger realizes AA is just as important to the TTI as any other program.

Wait, weren't you just saying that AA and programs have nothing to do with each other?

 
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Let me moderate it,


 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:


You're kidding, right??  You can't actually be serious.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THREADS
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 11:10:09 AM »
AA Isn't the Best Solution: Alternatives for Alcoholics

Stanton Peele
addiction expert, psychologist, raconteur
Posted: July 1, 2010 10:20 AM

Building on an essay in Wired magazine by Brendan Koerner, New York Times conservative columnist David Brooks lauds to the sky AA  and its founder, Bill Wilson. Both Brooks and Koerner point out the worldwide spread of AA (although it is limited mainly to the U.S. and like-minded countries), and the spread of the 12 steps to nearly all areas of behavior change, indeed, to how we approach social problems of all sorts.

Along the way, Brooks makes the good points that there is no scientific way to program behavior change -- that it is indefinite and rooted in individual choice. He points out the benefits of the social networks AA provides its members, and the decentralization of the AA movement, so that individual chapters are able to organize as its own members see fit. These are strong organization and psychological pluses.

But, unfortunately for a rational conservative, Brooks misses a few downsides to the AA movement.

1. The view AA conveys of alcohol and alcoholism is associated with abstinence-binge tendencies that already dominate America and other temperance nations. AA's approach is completely abstinence oriented. In fact, temperance cultures like America, which are highly suspicious and fearful of alcohol, are characterized by many individuals who restrict their drinking, but then go on benders. Similar Northern European cultures, for example, have several times the death rates due to alcohol of Southern European countries, because the former tend to monumental binges (think Ireland, England, Finland) while in the Southern countries, people drink alcohol causally with meals (think Italy, Spain, Greece, France). All indications are that the latter is much healthier. More particularly, the majority of AA members fall off the wagon. When they do so, they very often return to drinking without restraint.

Brooks, a great trend-spotter, has missed the worldwide movement -- including in the United States -- towards harm reduction. Harm reduction has an opposite approach to substance use and addiction from the 12 steps. It assumes many people will fail to achieve abstinence, and instead works in every possible way to curtail the problems associated with use: infections (through needle exchange), eliminating accidents (through safe driver programs), healthier use (through cutting back drinking, providing shelter, food and medical care for alcoholics and addicts, and, in the drug area, using safe injection methods or substitutes for injectibles).

Just as Brooks and Koerner were announcing their discovery that AA is great, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism was announcing that "alcoholism isn't what it used to be," that most people cut back alcoholic drinking without going to treatment -- that is, that most of the benefits of self-improvement occur outside the walls of AA for people who specifically violate the fundamental principles of AA. Brooks rejects science in this area: i.e., the idea "that we will someday find a scientific method that will allow us to predict behavior and design reliable social programs." But let's not reject science that tells us how the majority of people actually behave. That's ignorance.

2. Sorry, AA doesn't work. The goal of AA and comparable methods is to get people sober (which does NOT, outside of AA, mean total abstinence for everyone). But, according to Koerner: "Wilson's success is even more impressive when you consider that AA and its steps have become ubiquitous despite the fact that no one is quite sure how -- or, for that matter, how well -- they work." In other words, Wilson's and AA's triumph has been in marketing, not therapeutics.

In other areas, Brooks is not so quick to jump on the bandwagon of approaches that aren't proven to be successful. Given that AA started in 1935, that it is still not proven to be successful is beginning to be a bit worrisome. Do drinking and drug problems, alcoholism and addiction, seem to be improving in the United States? (Hint: according to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 25 percent of 21-year-old Americans have a diagnosable drug or alcohol problem -- far and away most often an alcohol problem.) Don't you think we might be doing a little better in this area after 75 years?

3. American AA is coercive. Brooks wisely notes, in acknowledging that AA doesn't work particularly well, "There is no single program that successfully transforms most people most of the time." But virtually everyone who ends up in AA in the United States is sent (forced) to attend AA or comparable programs -- for example through drug courts, or even municipal traffic courts after a DUI. Why does this occur? Because the AA movement is spearheaded by true believers who believe what was good for them is good for everyone, as Brooks himself hints: "There are millions of people who fervently believed that its 12-step process saved their lives." Naturally, these people are inclined to "recommend" that others follow their one truth path. This, even though Brooks notes, "the majority, even a vast majority, of the people who enroll in the program do not succeed in it."

4. The government, especially, should not be involved in spiritual salvation and identity change. As Brooks correctly states, people become sober when they "achieve broad spiritual awakenings, and abstinence from alcohol ... [is then] a byproduct of that larger salvation." Fair enough, but how does this go with point three, that people are routinely sent to AA by courts and social agencies? Four of nine federal circuit courts (as well as New York's and several other states' highest courts) have ruled that people with religious objections (Buddhists, atheists, Jews) cannot be compelled to attend AA or a 12-step program, and must be permitted alternatives. I know, I know ... AA isn't religious, and Step 3, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him," isn't really about that God -- you know, the Christian one. But those dang courts keep begging to differ -- forcing people to bow to any form of God is just not part of the Constitution.

5. We need to be encouraging alternatives to AA. Brooks does not make the proper deduction from noting that, "There is no single program that successfully transforms most people most of the time." Since AA and the 12 steps are used in over 90 percent of American treatment programs, we need to provide more ready alternatives to AA, not inject more resources and energy into the system that has been around three-quarters of a century, will little noticeable society-wide improvement in our drinking. Therapeutically, providing choice is a powerful tool, since it turns around many people's resistance to AA's Step 1 -- acknowledging that you are powerless. People tend to do better pursuing programs they believe in.

The most promising trends in alcoholism treatment are motivation enhancement (developed by psychologist William Miller), which avoids dictating to clients and instead allows them to express and pursue their own values, and mindfulness (developed by psychologist Alan Marlatt), the Zen Buddhist technique of meditation and focusing on inner states and needs. I use these techniques in my Life Process Program, which provides a non-12-step alternative that many people welcome, and in fact do better at.

And, while I'm at it, let me mention that I have recently written a foreword for Amy Lee Coy's From Death Do I Part, which is the story of a 34-year-old woman's quitting drinking after two decades of alcoholism (and assorted other addictions) and a dozen, at least, exposures to AA and 12-step rehab. She did so when she finally took ultimate responsibility for her own life.

P.S. Dave, read the comments, especially the ones that say any alcoholics who read this will die.




From the comments:

Brandsma JM, Maultsby MC, & Welsh RJ. (1980). Outpatient treatment of alcoholism: A review and comparative study. Baltimore: University Park Press.

Dodes, LM. (2002). The Heart of Addiction: A New Approach to Understanding and Managing Alcoholism and Other Addictive Behaviors. New York: HarperCollins.

NIAAA Five Year Strategic Plan FY07-11

Vaillant GE. (1995).The natural history of alcoholism revisited. Cambridge, Mass. Harvard University Press.

In particular, Vaillant's is the only cohort study where the 12 steps are compared to a control group. There were no advantages of the 12 step group compared to the control group in improvements in drinking behaviors over the course of several decades. The Brandsma study found that the 12 step group was comparable to the control group whereas the groups receiving cognitive or psychodynamic therapies did better than either the 12 step group or the control group. Vaillant is not anti-AA--he was a member of their board.

It is your constitutional right to use AA for your alcohol problem just as it is your constitutional right to use Christian Science for your cancer. Many people attend and swear by the Church of Christian Science just as many people attend and swear by AA. This does not prove that either is better than a no-treatment control group. If it helps you--then fine--go for it. Do not claim that "it works" however, unless you can find a scientific study to back you up. There are none.





The Brandsma study took people arrested for alcohol offenses and placed them into three groups. The AA group were fives times as likely to engage in binge drinking as the group that received no treatment, nine times as much as the group that received rational behavior therapy.

Teaching people that they have a lifelong disease that they are powerless over appears to turn any slip into a full blown relapse. This has become known as the "abstinence violation effect", and it happens with people whether they are mandated or not.
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