Addicts helping addicts

[Ursus]

OK, I tried to suppress the SUCK IT personality, but it came out anyway. You guys were trying to expose me and my self-defense mechanisms reacted automatically. You could even say it happens "powerlessly". Yes, I am definently powerless over my multiple personalities just as I am with drugs and alcohol. Sorry in advance if SUCK IT emerges from my psyche again and offends anyone.
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny

Interesting.  No wonder SUCK IT/Danny has been avoiding questions.

And you're not powerless over being an asshole.  Nor are you over alcohol....you have a choice to drink or not.  It doesn't pour itself down your throat.

Anne, please check the poster who is impersonating my username, different avatars. One is of a wolf, (me) and the other is Felicio's, "I wish I could get" fictional boyfriend.
Then we have Shaggy dog, which is probably Felicio again.
Anne why are you arguing a point that we already agree on. Your point is, you have no idea what the heck your talking about and we agree. Stop calling us names, you don't like it when others call you names, do you.

Given that the entity which goes by the username of "DannyB II" has, in fact, admitted to being composed of multiple personages, it should really come as no surprise that some of them would eventually feel the desire to splinter off and become known as individuals.  

[Anne Bonney]

I don't claim AA/NA is successful, this is a fact.

Ok......lesson time.   Stating that "AA/NA are successful, this is a fact" is making a claim that AA/NA are successful.  Now, please provide a citation for this "fact" you're stating.


 

Now whether you believe it works, or doesn't or whatever is another debate altogether. But as far as AA/NA meetings being available in almost every city at all hours of the day and night, all that takes is a google search and you can see just how successful they are.

So, your "proof" is that there are a lot of meetings.  Am I reading that correctly?  That's your "proof"?

This is similar to saying the Catholic Church has been successful, in that it is very widespread and many people believe in it, and go regularly.

Sure....it's very successful at making money and raping kids.  Doesn't make it good for anyone.

You can claim it's all lies, but that doesn't mean they, as an organization are not successful. I've had good experience with AA/NA, and I post about it, that's where I'm coming from.

Ok....we're asking for proof that it works.  Not anecdotal stories.  You guys don't believe us when we tell our anecdotal stories about what happened to us, so why should we take your word on the same?  Especially when the majority of us have extensive personal experience with AA and its similarities to programs.  

What we're looking for, in both AA and the TTI, is actual clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness.  They've even made it very convenient for you.  Go take a look at Valliant's study of AA.  He, an AA insider and true believer in it, found that AT BEST there was a 5% "success" rate and even worse, actually increased the deaths amongst alcoholics.  If you've got another clinical, longitudinal study that I'm not aware of, please enlighten me.




This was an answer to a question about "bashing" AA.  It's a good one.

 http://www.dangerthinice.org/bash%20alc ... nymous.htm

Here’s my answer:

What you consider bashing is probably just people like me telling the truth about AA.

Only 5% of newcomers stay in AA for one year, the other 95% leave; that from AA’s own Triennial Survey. Out of that 95%, at least some found the program harmful, I know I certain did.

I bounced in and out of the rooms for almost twenty years, never putting together more than a few months of sobriety. AA programmed me to fail. I’m an atheist and found it impossible to do the steps. People told me that even an atheist could manage it, but that’s plain bs. I went through all sorts of mental gymnastics in those years and it just cannot be done. AA members don’t want you to anyway, they want you to convert. Just read “We Agnostics” or the “12 & 12”...religious tripe. They can claim “spiritual, not religious” as much as they want, ever higher court that has heard the arguments have ultimately decided that AA is at least “religious in nature”.

During my brief stints in the rooms, I picked up all sorts of damaging beliefs, powerlessness, that I had a disease, and that I couldn’t make it without AA. Over 5 years ago, I took responsibility for my addiction and my recovery, and I’m still sober today.

And I’m not the only one. There are at least a dozen AA “bashing” groups on Yahoo alone, helping people heal from the abuses they found in the rooms.

I’ve been working with people who have substance abuse and mental health issues, almost every one of them has their own “twelve step horror stories”. (BTW, did you know there’s a book with that title? It can be read online at:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp )

 

Many of these people fell victim to the anti-medication, anti-therapy faction of AA who, despite literature to the contrary, tell people they must give up all medication or else they aren’t truly sober.

Have you ever looked at the studies done? How about the Brandsma study that showed that people who were exposed to AA were 4-5 times as likely to engage in binge drinking than those who attempted quitting on their own. Or the various studies that show AA’s 5% success rate is the same as the 5% success rate achieved by people quitting on the own? Or the Harvard study that showed that most people more people get sober with no treatment that through AA?

But my all time favorite study was run by George Valliant, Harvard researcher and member of the AA Board of Trustees, in attempting to prove that AA worked, he came up with this conclusion:
”Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.”

 

But he didn’t let a little thing like facts stand in his way, he still promotes AA.


For those who want to read more about these studies and AA’s efficiency, go to:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

 

Some people do credit AA for their sobriety, mainly because that’s were they were when they made to decision to stop, but that’s like something always being in the last place you look....you stop looking.

A comparison was done of 48 different methods of recovery, AA placed 38th in effectiveness:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

 

Why should AA be immune to valid criticism? Where are the studies, the facts and figures that prove AA works? All you have are the testimonials of people who claim AA worked for them, what about the testimonials of those who say it didn’t and those who say it harmed them?

[SUCK IT]

I never said AA should be immune from criticism. I don't have that kind of existential control over all aspects of the universe. I said AA helped me and many other people. Psy says AA is a failure, well reality would care to disagree. There are meetings in almost every city, every day, at all times. You are talking about millions of people who make up this grass roots organization and so it exists. This is by definition a successful organization. Since it's anonymous, I doubt many people want to sign up to be studied. The real question you might want to ask yourself is, why does it bother me so much AA is a success? Why does it bother me so much that AA helps people?

[DannyB II]

I don't claim AA/NA is successful, this is a fact.

Ok......lesson time.   Stating that "AA/NA are successful, this is a fact" is making a claim that AA/NA are successful.  Now, please provide a citation for this "fact" you're stating.

No here is the real lesson, Anne but first let me state that I am sick and tired of your stubbornness (just joking), here on this topic. Here is your citation, me. Two decades of experience, need I say more. This can not be refuted.


 

Now whether you believe it works, or doesn't or whatever is another debate altogether. But as far as AA/NA meetings being available in almost every city at all hours of the day and night, all that takes is a google search and you can see just how successful they are.

So, your "proof" is that there are a lot of meetings.  Am I reading that correctly?  That's your "proof"?

No that is not all, here is the proof. AA is in practically every country on the planet, they have these meeting every day, multiple times a day. There are 2 million members and that number is known to be conservative.
That is all the proof you need.

This is similar to saying the Catholic Church has been successful, in that it is very widespread and many people believe in it, and go regularly.

Sure....it's very successful at making money and raping kids.  Doesn't make it good for anyone.

but it is not successful in it's primary objective then, helping folks find God. AA is successful in helping folks find a way to sober up.

You can claim it's all lies, but that doesn't mean they, as an organization are not successful. I've had good experience with AA/NA, and I post about it, that's where I'm coming from.

Ok....we're asking for proof that it works.  Not anecdotal stories.  You guys don't believe us when we tell our anecdotal stories about what happened to us, so why should we take your word on the same?  Especially when the majority of us have extensive personal experience with AA and its similarities to programs.

Anne, what we don't believe is your anecdotal stories, your right, are stories are not anecdotal, we are not telling stories based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers and/or evidence.
Suck It and I are involved with AA, we are living it. Have been blessed by the rewards of AA 12 steps. That is the difference between you and the both of us.
Also Anne, you do not have extensive experience with AA first hand, you were in a 12 step program that greatly distorted the 12 steps to a point they were unrecognizable to any AA in the real world. Anne, Suck It and I, freely came to AA and picked up the tools of the 12 steps.

What we're looking for, in both AA and the TTI, is actual clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness.  They've even made it very convenient for you.  Go take a look at Valliant's study of AA.  He, an AA insider and true believer in it, found that AT BEST there was a 5% "success" rate and even worse, actually increased the deaths amongst alcoholics.  If you've got another clinical, longitudinal study that I'm not aware of, please enlighten me.

"What were looking for is actual clinical, longitudinal, peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness".
Anne this statement right here, speaks volumes about your lack of experience with the Real Free World Of AA. As I said above you were involved with a narcissist ugly form of the 12 steps. I can't even call it AA because it was not. You have been so traumatized by this experience that you believe AA in the real world is also like what you were taught at Straight. Well this is just not true.
I know you have stated in the past that you have attended AA meeting outside of Straight. I believe you Anne, I also know that you were abused by Straight prior to going to meetings outside. You were already contaminated, Anne. Prejudice had set in.
As far as studies Anne, you just don't get it and you probably never will. That's fine too because your not a alcoholic or drug addict. So what difference does it really make.
Anne, you are the only one aside from Psy that are really bothered by AA and its success. One drunk helping another drunk and One Day at A Time. We do not concern ourselves with surveys and reports. Sorry were busy trying to save lives.
What are you doing,  Anne.




This was an answer to a question about "bashing" AA.  It's a good one.

 http://www.dangerthinice.org/bash%20alc ... nymous.htm

Here’s my answer:

What you consider bashing is probably just people like me telling the truth about AA.

Only 5% of newcomers stay in AA for one year, the other 95% leave; that from AA’s own Triennial Survey. Out of that 95%, at least some found the program harmful, I know I certain did.

I bounced in and out of the rooms for almost twenty years, never putting together more than a few months of sobriety. AA programmed me to fail. I’m an atheist and found it impossible to do the steps. People told me that even an atheist could manage it, but that’s plain bs. I went through all sorts of mental gymnastics in those years and it just cannot be done. AA members don’t want you to anyway, they want you to convert. Just read “We Agnostics” or the “12 & 12”...religious tripe. They can claim “spiritual, not religious” as much as they want, ever higher court that has heard the arguments have ultimately decided that AA is at least “religious in nature”.

During my brief stints in the rooms, I picked up all sorts of damaging beliefs, powerlessness, that I had a disease, and that I couldn’t make it without AA. Over 5 years ago, I took responsibility for my addiction and my recovery, and I’m still sober today.

And I’m not the only one. There are at least a dozen AA “bashing” groups on Yahoo alone, helping people heal from the abuses they found in the rooms.

I’ve been working with people who have substance abuse and mental health issues, almost every one of them has their own “twelve step horror stories”. (BTW, did you know there’s a book with that title? It can be read online at:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp )

 

Many of these people fell victim to the anti-medication, anti-therapy faction of AA who, despite literature to the contrary, tell people they must give up all medication or else they aren’t truly sober.

Have you ever looked at the studies done? How about the Brandsma study that showed that people who were exposed to AA were 4-5 times as likely to engage in binge drinking than those who attempted quitting on their own. Or the various studies that show AA’s 5% success rate is the same as the 5% success rate achieved by people quitting on the own? Or the Harvard study that showed that most people more people get sober with no treatment that through AA?

But my all time favorite study was run by George Valliant, Harvard researcher and member of the AA Board of Trustees, in attempting to prove that AA worked, he came up with this conclusion:
”Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.”

 

But he didn’t let a little thing like facts stand in his way, he still promotes AA.


For those who want to read more about these studies and AA’s efficiency, go to:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Anne OK, so you have a AA member, who is not now. Giving his opinion. Great I would not say someone bouncing in and out of AA for twenty years a expert but I'm sure that is the best you could do on short notice. Are you sure he is still sober, just ask'in. Then we have the OJ papers, one person opinion against  2 million.
Hey here is something for ya, go find a article AA wrote criticizing another avenue to sobriety. Please, google or bing, find me a souce, web site sponsored by AA GSO NYC, that defames, bashes or refutes other sources that help folks recover.
Let me help you, you will not find one because we don't advertise we are the "only way" to get sober. We know we are not. We are just one way.  

Some people do credit AA for their sobriety, mainly because that’s were they were when they made to decision to stop, but that’s like something always being in the last place you look....you stop looking.

Ya that's what it was Anne, SO HELP ME GOD!!!!!!!!

A comparison was done of 48 different methods of recovery, AA placed 38th in effectiveness:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/whatworks.htm

OK.......... Sounds like it bothers you, Anne.

Why should AA be immune to valid criticism? Where are the studies, the facts and figures that prove AA works? All you have are the testimonials of people who claim AA worked for them, what about the testimonials of those who say it didn’t and those who say it harmed them?

I don't know Anne, why are they so important to you and not the testimonials from folks who say it helped them. There are so many more of them, like 1000 to 1. (just a guess)

[Froderik]

God Loves A Drunk

[DannyB II]

God Loves A Drunk

 Of course he does, God loves every one, Frodie.

[Anne Bonney]

No here is the real lesson, Anne but first let me state that I am sick and tired of your stubbornness (just joking), here on this topic.

Hey, you're the one seeking attention by constantly posting a thread about this topic and then respond to yourself when we all ignore you.

Here is your citation, me. Two decades of experience, need I say more. This can not be refuted.

That you wasted 2 decades of your life devoted to AA cannot be refuted, but your "citation" of yourself doesn't prove a damn thing.  Do you really not understand the difference between proof and anecdotal stories?

You can claim it's all lies, but that doesn't mean they, as an organization are not successful. I've had good experience with AA/NA, and I post about it, that's where I'm coming from.

Ok...that's your experience and your opinion.  Valliant's study proves differently.

Suck It and I are involved with AA, we are living it. Have been blessed by the rewards of AA 12 steps. That is the difference between you and the both of us.

The difference between you and me is that I grew the balls to take responsibility for my actions and grew up.  You've devoted 2 decades to a pseudo-cult.

Also Anne, you do not have extensive experience with AA first hand, you were in a 12 step program that greatly distorted the 12 steps to a point they were unrecognizable to any AA in the real world. Anne, Suck It and I, freely came to AA and picked up the tools of the 12 steps.

I have years of experience with AA and I've told you that several times.  I've also had family members in AA and seen what it's done to (not for) them.

Anne this statement right here, speaks volumes about your lack of experience with the Real Free World Of AA. As I said above you were involved with a narcissist ugly form of the 12 steps. I can't even call it AA because it was not. You have been so traumatized by this experience that you believe AA in the real world is also like what you were taught at Straight. Well this is just not true.
I know you have stated in the past that you have attended AA meeting outside of Straight. I believe you Anne, I also know that you were abused by Straight prior to going to meetings outside. You were already contaminated, Anne. Prejudice had set in.

To the contrary...I was hoping that AA would be different than Straight.  I was wrong.  There were/are sooooooo many similarities it's downright scary.

As far as studies Anne, you just don't get it and you probably never will. That's fine too because your not a alcoholic or drug addict. So what difference does it really make.

Because I have friends and family who needed help, not lies.

We do not concern ourselves with surveys and reports.

Well, of course not.  Why let facts get in the way of your opinions?

[Ursus]

Here is your citation, me. Two decades of experience, need I say more. This can not be refuted.

That you wasted 2 decades of your life devoted to AA cannot be refuted, but your "citation" of yourself doesn't prove a damn thing.  Do you really not understand the difference between proof and anecdotal stories?

As far as studies Anne, you just don't get it and you probably never will. That's fine too because your not a alcoholic or drug addict. So what difference does it really make.

Because I have friends and family who needed help, not lies.

We do not concern ourselves with surveys and reports.

Well, of course not.  Why let facts get in the way of your opinions?

On a similar note, James Arthur Ray confuses testimonials with being equivalent to "scientific studies." See this great little debate with John Norcross, which appeared on a short segment of CBS News three years ago: LINK

[Anne Bonney]

Danny....the title of the thread is Addicts helping Addicts......does that "help" include dragging a girl around behind a van as a "therapeutic tool"?

[Anne Bonney]

 

Anne why are you arguing a point that we already agree on. Your point is, you have no idea what the heck your talking about and we agree.

This is why people call you names, you asswipe.

Stop calling us names, you don't like it when others call you names, do you.

No, it really doesn't bother me that much.  I grew immune to it in Straight.

[Anne Bonney]

Hi Anne Bonney

I don't avoid questions, but I do avoid extremist personalities not open to discussion. I don't think you are one of them really.

Ok then.....which program did you attend?

[Anne Bonney]

Marijuana G E T S .  Y O U . H I G H . . .

I love that about it....whether it's a drug or not is a secondary issue..  :rasta:

Yo, Frodie get high, Dude. Then get high again, get your family high, your grandson get him high. Sit with your daughter when she tells you she is pregnant and hand her the, "fatty" and get her high. Go to work get your boss high, find the owner and get him high. Call your State Senator, get him high, call your congressmen and get him high.
Barak and Michelle ask them to get high, hand the "fatty" to his daughters and get them high.
Drive across town and get high, go to WalMart and get high. Ask your grandmother for money and get her high, then you get high.
Take your dog for a walk, no don't get him high but show him how, "you need to get high".

You are high, "Frodie", way "HIGH".

Wow.....and you call us "extremists".  Do you really think the average person who smokes gets their grandkids/daughter or other families high?   This is another example of AA thinking.....if you use any substance, you're an addict.  I'm sorry you guys are so jealous that we can handle our drinks/weed and you obviously can't.

[Anne Bonney]

What is really sickening is these addict losers thinking their gonna save everybody else from themselves. They want to convince every weak-minded deadbeat like themselves that they are "powerless" over drugs and alcohol so that they dont have to feel like a degenerate piece of filth for letting a substance control their lives. My question to any neutral person reading this is simple: Do you want your children being "treated" by someone who has already shown by their past behavior that they have absolutely no moral compass whatsoever. DannyBII, Whooter, Suck it and other such trash are always ready to "relapse" and start giving blowjobs for dope money in a heartbeat. I wouldn't allow my children to even associate with ex-crack head, needle junkie human garbage like that.
Come on you troll filth, there is your red meat, wanna bite?

Why, we are shuttering to think, this is how you relate to your wife and children. WoW.
Another sick troll fishing for reactions, how pathetic is that.

Why do you assume that the way someone "speaks" here is the same way they relate to their families at home?  Are you that disconnected from reality?

[Anne Bonney]

No danny you ceratinly are not my problem but you are a problem for Fornits. You and the drug addicted scum you represent are engaged, by your own admittance, in an organized campaign to harrass any and all who come here seeking answers about their abusive treatment at the facilities you represent. As far as the credibility issue you raised, I have friends who come to this site regularly who know me personally and know that everything i have said is 100 percent right on. Whether or not some low life drugged out "powerless" dirtbag believes a word i say, is utterly irrelevant. I am not even here to have a serious conversation anymore because you have made that impossible now. I will now devote myself to doing back to you here what you have done to others previously. Yeah I need some fun too. BTW, when you were blowing truckers for meth money did you let them finish in your mouth or did you prefer facials? Just wonderin drug addict. I mean you can tell us right? Your not responsible for that right? Your powerless over drugs. You have a disease. Right?
Oops almost forgot, you ordered me to never and I mean never say that I speak for Straight survivors. Well I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself but since I dont take orders from crackhead needle junkies I am now officially declaring myself spokesperson for 100 percent of Straight survivors. Yep im the new fuckin president of our club.

Like I said Shaggy, you are a nuisance. I deal with folks like you all the time. No big deal. Your probably a poster here already, impersonating yourself.
So go on with your filthy posts, make sure you let your wife and kids read them. Don't live a double life.
See I think your a liar, there is no way you can be in a loving relationship with others and speak like this. Unless there is something else happening here, Hhhhhmmmmm........will see.

You are, without a doubt, one of the biggest idiots I've come across in a very long time.

[SUCK IT]

Hi Anne Bonney

I don't avoid questions, but I do avoid extremist personalities not open to discussion. I don't think you are one of them really.

Ok then.....which program did you attend?

Like I said, readers are free to draw their own conclusions on why somebody might want to keep personal information to themselves on a forum hostile to any pro treatment ideas. As I've said before, I went to a program that has its own dedicated forum here. I also went to another program that is not mentioned once here. I've also participated in AA/NA and that is why I comment on it like this thread. If it lowers my credibility to keep some information to myself that's a price I'm willing to pay.