Author Topic: How to really survive a treatment program  (Read 9820 times)

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Offline Dr Fucktard

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 03:48:34 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m just asking SUCK IT a question, and give him/her an opportunity to demonstrate why they support this advice to teens going to programs.  I’m not using tactics here, I’m trying to help SUCK IT grow.  You won’t find me doing anything that can be considered unethical, so don’t be afraid to open up to me SUCK IT.

So what’s up SUCK IT? I want to hear.
It's truly wonderful to see this kind of love and support happening here for a change!
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Offline SUCK IT

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 05:06:26 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"
Maybe you can embrace this credo yourself by considering the possibility that many people (most I know off Fornits) were damaged by programs. Many were brainwashed and could not begin to unravel it until they were adults with more life experience.  I am sorry you do not have the compassion to understand, but it is offensive to belittle these experiences.

I don't claim that nobody had a negative experience inside of a treatment program. My argument is simply that from my point of view, this is a minority of people and the silent majority did just fine, and don't seek out forums like this, because they don't have any agenda to push regarding programs. Much of what is posted on fornits is not realistic, and a lot of times this is posted by people who were never in treatment. So when someone posts that everyone gets abused in treatment, prepare to be raped, brainwashed, and using rhetoric like terms survivors, things i just don't agree with. I did find in a treatment program that is considered on this forum to be abusive, and I know plenty of other people who did as well. If you were to ask an average fornits extremists what is in store for a teen if sent there, I can see just how off their perception of what is happening really is.

I feel compassion for anyone who has problems in life. Some kids are injured, abused and killed in programs, I never denied this. But I also am honest enough to recognize that it is extremely unlikely to happen. Most kids sent to wilderness programs and modern treatment prgorams do just fine, make it through without any major issues or complaints and move on with their life. So the fact is I'm all about honesty, even if it "hurts the cause" because I have moved on to a point where I can look at my own experience with some objectivity. I don't feel a need to play victim to push  a anti treatment political agenda. So the fact the rhetoric doesn't match up anywhere near my reality is point 1. The second reason I object to fornits extremism is the cult like hatred of groups like AA, i think its ridiculous.

I support kids getting a positive treatment experience. I've had this experience and think it's great, and the better the chances of having a positive experience, the better. I know from my own observations if a kid follows the advice posted here, such as refusing and lying, or worse smearing shit on your face, or committing violence, or going to jail on purpose, etc, that if a kid wants to stay safe, get through the quickest, and just maybe even work on some issues, then work the program. If you reject it will be much more likely to lead to a negative experience, and then you can smear shit or do something violent and come fulfill the fornits version of reality. I think it's irresponsible to offer such ridiculous advice to a teenager facing treatment. If I could go back and give myself advice, this what I posted is exactly what I would give. The opposite would be the advice posted here by fornits members.

I don't see why my position is so annoying to some or hard to understand. I think everybody here including whooter wants the same thing which is kids staying safe in treatment. Most of the regular fornits posters have adopted an extremist view on the industry. So this makes them angry to hear other points of view, they'd rather not hear it at all. In reality Whooter is a mainstream point of view, and so am I. But we are now presented as extreme, when really it's the people throwing the accusation that are the extremists. I am here to post my opinions, and I do get real and am honest about what it's really like in treatment from the point of view with someone willing to be objective and not push a political point. The cult like atmosphere is ironic and also stifling to having a real conversation. Top that off with the conspiracy theories, paranoia and hatred and it becomes a difficult place to have an honest conversation.

 
Quote from: "Awake"
I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m just asking SUCK IT a question, and give him/her an opportunity to demonstrate why they support this advice to teens going to programs.  I’m not using tactics here, I’m trying to help SUCK IT grow.  You won’t find me doing anything that can be considered unethical, so don’t be afraid to open up to me SUCK IT.

So what’s up SUCK IT? I want to hear.

Why does it bother you so much that I post what would be advice to myself, if I could go back in time? If you hated it so much, why use your internet cache to post it up again when I was going to rewrite it? I'm saying this with all respect, do you really want to become like dysfunction junction is with whooter? You know what I mean. Personally obsessed, for whatever reason. Believe me, I'm not really worth your time or energy. Attempting to equate an online conversation and what you probably view as 'unethical' group therapy just isn't going to work, although I do get what you're trying to do. If you really think this advice is offensive, the best thing would be just to not bump the conversation to the top. But you did, so there must be something you want to say about it. Instead of trying to goad me into saying something why not just say it?
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Offline Awake

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2010, 05:41:36 PM »
I really don't see why you are getting so defensive with respect to your own advice. What exactly do you think I am 'goading' you into saying?
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Offline SUCK IT

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2010, 05:51:22 PM »
I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.
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Offline Awake

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2010, 06:27:13 PM »
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.


No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening.  You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you.  I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription.  I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.

  It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.


A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?
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Joel

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2010, 06:51:59 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Offline SUCK IT

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2010, 06:53:12 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
I'm going to do you a favor and not respond. I am sure you have better things to do, as do I, than enter into a personal tit for tat, dysfunctional junctino style argument. I have posted my ideas and arguments regarding how to advise a teen entering treatment. If you feel the need to criticize my advice, for whatever reason, you are free to do so in this thread.


No, it is not a personal tit for tat argument, that is not what’s happening.  You are offering your thinking and I am challenging it, it’s about ideas, not about you.  I haven’t done anything inappropriate here, we are exploring your concept, and I belive your stance disintegrates in the face of your own prescription.  I’m interested in seeing how it would play out, but if it makes you uncomfortable I can’t keep you here, unlike a program teen.

  It’s really not a personal thing at all, just an opportunity to learn what we can really expect from it.


A teen in a program does not have the chance to 'not respond' . What would happen if you had to respond?

What I bolded is actually your first idea that you have offered in this thread. Before that you were pretending we were in group therapy, and asking me questions I didn't want to answer, because I deleted my own post you thought by bringing it back and questioning me about this is somehow analogous to unwelcome group therapy a teenager in a program might experience. I get it. But really this type of charade only diminishes your own argument, because honestly an online debate is not a traumatizing experience in any way, so if I were on your side of the argument I don't think I'd want to water it down by suggesting the two experiences are similar. So how should I have responded to this game of yours? I've seen this peculiar argument done before on other posters, and it never made sense to me. But persist if you must.

I will go ahead and address your idea you have posted, that teens don't have a choice not to respond, as I do when posting on this forum. (this was the point of the exercise, correct?) Well in my own personal experience, you could refuse if you wanted, and plenty did. How is a program counselor going to force a kid to talk? Tie them down on a table and water board them until they admit their issues? Some people like Pile are probably gullible enough to believe this happens. I don't consider group therapy to be unethical or abusive, so the fact that it happens in teen treatment programs doesn't automatically alarm me like it does some posters here. If a teen chooses to participate they will be rewarded by emotional gains and also probably realistic gains as far as in perks in the treatment facility. It's natural for a teen to want to participate and be a part of this progression, but there are always teens who refuse. I know people who refused to do any sort of work the whole time, and they weren't tortured or abused. They basically wasted the time, just to protest or remain in their old ways like people here suggest. Other kids resisted and changed their minds and wanted to progress. It's all up to the person, as I said in my advice, if they want to have a positive or negative experience. The so called advice offered up here in other threads would ensure that it result in a negative experience. How backwards is it that people would offer advice to ensure such a negative experience, coming from people who claim to be for helping teens? That's why I offer my own advice, and realistic advice, because if anyone follows the bullshit posted here by the extremists they will guarantee themselves a bad time. Its of course very ironic that fornits can create negative experiences for other people based on their backwards interpretations of other people's negative experiences, but this place is strange like that.
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Offline Awake

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2010, 07:00:43 PM »
All I'm asking is for you to take a look at yourself. I can't help you do that if you don't open up.



Tell me what, are the feelings you are having. Is 'anger' in there somewhere?
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Offline SUCK IT

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2010, 07:14:32 PM »
Well, have fun with your game Awake. I'll be gone for a few days but if you post any ideas to this thread again I'll try to answer them when I get a chance.
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Offline Awake

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
Well, have fun with your game Awake. I'll be gone for a few days but if you post any ideas to this thread again I'll try to answer them when I get a chance.


Actually this is YOUR game and your advice to teens. If you want to run from it that's your choice.
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2010, 08:02:21 PM »
Quote
How is a program counselor going to force a kid to talk? Tie them down on a table and water board them until they admit their issues?

No.  I never saw that one, but I sure they tried it in Elan at least once.

Umm... Positive Peer Pressure.  That is whta it was called in Daytop.  The whole program is designed to the end of not only making you talk about your problems, but thinking you are your problems.  Here are just a few ways, in which counselors MADE people talk about their feelings.

1. Anyone who wanted to could go up to you and "confront" you at any time. It was a rule that you had to answer all of their questions, and you had to answer them honestly.  The confrontation ended when the confronter said so.  You were only allowed to answer with direct statements, and could not even say somethings such as "what do you mean?" . "Can you be more specific?"  because then you were trying to "whip the focus".  Confrontation, was always done with a hostile attitude. No answers were satisfactory, and more questions kept coming.  "Confrontation was strongly encouraged in Daytop.  In fact, when you were shotdown, one of the main ways to earn your 2 cigarettes breaks a day was to confront as many other people as possible.

2. Let's say you weren t talking much, in general, and it didn t seem that you were confronted much either.  In this case, at a "FAMILY MEETING!!!!!" ( I can still hear the voices of the kids running through the halls screaming that shit), a counselor would say that you were " lying in the cut", and he wanted people to confront you more.  " Hunting Season has begun"

or as was done to numerous people every single day - " And this morning's entertainment will be" -  you are put up in front of the whole family, and the counselors start the ball rolling on some issue or another, and then everyone gets their shot at you.  Anyone who wants lines up, and they question you, until they are done, and also, give you their commentary, on your thoughts and feelings... The bottom line to all of it - " YOU ARE WRONG!"  "  WE KNOW TYOU BETTER THEN YOU DO, AND THIS IS NOT YOU!"  Some of the older members didn t even line up. They just shouted their questions and accusations right from their seats, and you dealt with it, because you had to. This happenned to a few people a day, every single day.

3.  Oh.. one of the best ones is this.  Let's say somebody isn t opening up, and is maintaining their personal identity.  They haven t caused any problems or anything.  They re just not really joining the pack...  They usually have only been there for about a week or so, and they walk into their first encounter group.  

" A BLOOD BATH"...  Every mother fucker in the room starts attacking them.  I have seen some tough ass motherfuckers break down and start crying.  And that s the thing.  They always started crying eventually, because that was the goal.  I remember this one guy.  he was an ugly motherfucker.  But did he really need so many people telling him it.  This girl he use to hang out with, was now a seasoned Daytopian.  She was in teh group, and she went on, about how she hated him, and how she was only using him, when they hung out.  " Did you really think I liked you?"

Therapy?  

It was sick.  It was disgusting....

and if anyone really thinks that it is good for people, how come you don t talk to your loved ones that way?  Don t you want to help them?

All a bunch of fucking pussies, ganging up and attacking one vulnerable person, who was usually stronger then the lot of them added together.

After that a person breaks, they ll tell ya whatever you want to hear.

Paul
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 08:17:19 PM »
The Daytop facility that I went to was a renovated funeral parlor.  I always got a kick out of that.  It went from a place for  the dead, to a place for the living dead.

Paul
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 08:29:50 PM »
That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members.  Not sure if the program itself was abusive.  There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop  for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse.  They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused.  So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.



...
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 08:31:13 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members.  Not sure if the program itself was abusive.  There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop  for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse.  They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused.  So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.



...


Whooter, they didn t consider this abuse.

Paul
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How to really survive a treatment program
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2010, 08:39:03 PM »
Quote from: "Paul St. John"
Quote from: "Whooter"
That’s not good, I feel bad for those kids. I think it has to do with the individual staff members.  Not sure if the program itself was abusive.  There have been posters here on fornits (some have come and gone) who worked at daytop  for years, as staff, and claim they never abused anyone or saw any abuse.  They were professionals and would be bound by their profession to report it immediately if they saw any child being abused.  So these must have been isolated cases or at least this didn’t occur during their time there.



...


Whooter, they didn t consider this abuse.

Paul

Sorry, Paul, I thought you were calling it abuse.  It just seems a little rough to me, I wouldnt want my kid to go through anything like that.  I am sure they screen their staff personnel much better now a days or maybe they were a tough bunch of kids in that particular group.  My daughter would have freaked out and headed for the door if anyone talked to her that way.



...
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