General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
ajax13:
Stonewall, you're hilarious. I appreciate a send-up of an ignorant hate-monger as much as anyone, so my hat is off to you and your talent for parody. I too have immense respect for the history of Islam. Philosophers and scientists like Averroes. The muslim physician Avicenna influenced Western medicine for hundreds of years. It brings to mind the United States, whose people have embraced and advanced science, came up with jazz and the Constitution, but also dropped one hundred thousand bombs in less than two weeks on the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong.
Stonewall:
--- Quote from: "ajax13" ---Stonewall, you're hilarious. I appreciate a send-up of an ignorant hate-monger as much as anyone, so my hat is off to you and your talent for parody. I too have immense respect for the history of Islam. Philosophers and scientists like Averroes. The muslim physician Avicenna influenced Western medicine for hundreds of years. It brings to mind the United States, whose people have embraced and advanced science, came up with jazz and the Constitution, but also dropped one hundred thousand bombs in less than two weeks on the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong.
--- End quote ---
I'm not hateful. It's more a hatred of hatred.
But, I am more than willing to be educated. You named two people who were Muslims who may have overcome their religion and actually made something of themselves. That does not acquit the religion. Does not acquit Muhammad.
ajax13:
You are on fire Stonewall. That double-speak you use is a spot-on satire of the kind of manipulative denial used by bigotted fascists for decades. I almost bought the idea there that you are so ignorant that you're unaware that the immense and sophisticated civilization of the Arab empire and how these muslims rescued and promoted the work of the Classic Western Civilizations while Christian Europe had degenerated into barbarism. But then I clued in that you were just putting everyone on! That bit about acquittal of Mohammed is clever and funny, and just as preposterous as acquitting Thomas Jefferson for the millions of Vietnamese killed during the US attack on Vietnam, or the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed in the more recent US invasion of Iraq. Using satire the way you do is a great way to point out the incoherence of the hatred directed against millions of the world's citizens for their spiritual beliefs. Acquit Mohammed and the Talmud, too. Very funny stuff.
IslamIsViolent:
Ajax. Something you should understand is that Islam itself is inherantly violent. Not all muslims follow their religion and are violent (just as not all Christians are peaceful) but it is accurate to say that the religion itself commands violence. Hear me out. Back in the beginning Muhammad was your average cult leader in Mecca. To gain followers (and not anger those who outnumbered him) his "revelations" commanded peace and tolerance. Often these are the verses Muslims will quote to prove their religion is like most other religions.
Eventually Muhammad moved to Medina and gained power. At that point his "revelations" started to command violence. He became a warlord. He raided, he plundered, he pillaged, he personally beheaded between 600 and 900 jews. Some more on his life here. How did he explain god's change of heart to his followers? The Qur'an states in chapter 2, verse 106 (and elsewhere):
--- Quote ---"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
--- End quote ---
This is similar to concepts in other religions, but the difference is that while in christianity for example, where God suddenly became a pacifist in the New Testament, in Islam God became a tyrant. When reading the Qur'an, realize that it is not arranged chronologically, but from biggest book to smallest. The final chapter, chronologically, is Sura 9. You can read it for yourself but basically what it commands is that Unbelievers be given a choice: Christians and jews have the choice to either convert to Islam or submit to Islamic rule (follow all islamic laws) and pay tribute (Jizya). If they refuse to pay tribute they are killed. Atheists, agnostics, pagans, and everybody else on the other hand have only the options of conversion or death. This is not up to interpretation. The chapter is crystal clear on what it commands and if you read it for yourself you'll agree. Chapter 9 is hardly the only example. Here are some more.
Islam commands husbands to beat their wives. Islam commands hatred of Christians and Jews (but especially jews). I realize you're Canadian and dislike "hate speech" but you should understand that the Qur'an itself, by any standard, is just that. The danger of Islam is not that some extremists will take things out of context and blow themselves up. The danger is when people interpret it correctly and follow all it's commands as "Allah" very clearly and explicitly orders.
It's not fair to judge muslims by Islam as many are casual in their beliefs and do not know fully what it commands. Often this is because the Qur'an must be recited in arabic and while many memorize, not all understand or care to. Other muslims simply choose to ignore the violent parts. Some Muslims are only Muslims because apostasy in Islam is a crime punishable by death. In the same respect it's idiotic to judge Islam itself by the peaceful Muslims you know.
IslamIsViolent:
--- Quote from: "ajax13" ---hatred directed against millions of the world's citizens for their spiritual beliefs.
--- End quote ---
It isn't hatred of a people. It's not even fear of a people. It is fear of an ideology. Islamophobia is a misnomer because a "phobia" implies an irrational fear. It is entirely rational to fear of an ideology that commands such violence and intolerance.
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