Author Topic: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"  (Read 17254 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« on: June 17, 2010, 11:43:34 AM »
My comments in blue


http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2075

Kids trained by Landmark Education, is it “brainwashing” or their “salvation”?

Not content with making money from adults paying for its controversial large group awareness training (LGAT) the controversial company called “Landmark Education“ targets minor children.

Werner Erhard, 1970sKids as young as eight were recently enrolled at a cost of “$700 a child” in Australia to go through Landmark’s “intensive three-day workshop” reported The Sunday Times.

40 elementary school children were signed up this month in Perth for the supposedly “life-changing” LGAT based upon the teachings of a former used car salesman ”Jack” Rosenberg, who later changed his name to Werner Erhard.

Erhard had no educational or counseling credentials to guide him, but rather his personal experience dabbling in fringe self-improvement groups like Scientology.

He created a company during the 1970s called “est” (Erhard Seminar Training) that presented an initial introductory program called The Forum.

Est was reportedly sold in 1992 and was subsequently renamed “Landmark Education.” Erhard’s brother Harry Rosenberg and his sister now run the private for-profit company.

Landmark turned Erhard’s concocted philosophy into LGAT gold, making millions of dollars every month in fees. The company has never been bigger or more successful since its inception.

Landmark has a formula to make even more money.  First it recruits parents to take its courses and then the company gets them to enroll their kids.  This can potentially cause conflict, if parents are divorced and share joint custody.  A Perth policeman refused to let his ex-wife send their daughter to the LGAT.

A $avior?“It struck me as a money-making enterprise and I really thought that the three-day seminar could be quite stressful and draining,” he said. The officer also questioned why anyone would put an 8-year-old through something so “stressful or draining” referring to Landmark’s methods as “pressure-cooker teaching.”

But kids have become lucrative for Landmark, which runs programs in the US for children 8-12 and teens too.  
Effectively Landmark has turned families into ”cash cows” and has successfully milked almost 2,000 kids in Australia alone.  
Landmark’s programs are controversial and some have called them ”brainwashing.”  The company has a long history of bad press and it garnered some more this month “down under.”  Australian adolescent psychologist Michael Carr-Gregg warned parents “to be wary” of the workshop and called it an “utter waste of money.”

“If a child has a major psychological problem they should go to a fully qualified, government-accredited professional,” he said.

It is unclear what educational requirements Landmark requires or expects from its seminar leaders, who are typically neither mental health professionals, nor licensed or accountable to any government regulatory or accrediting body.

The psychologist was also concerned about “overloading children on the weekend” and he said, “sticking a kid in there for three days is pretty awful.” Yeah, a weekend is pretty awful.....just think what it does to a kid to be stuck in a program for months/years on end being subjected to it.

Greg isn’t the only doctor worried about LGATs like Landmark.  Clinical psychologist Philip Cushman studied LGATs in the 1990s and published a paper after researching what he called “mass marathon training.”  Cushman saw serious problems for adults, let alone children.

In his paper titled “The Politics of Transformation: Recruitment - Indoctrination Processes in a Mass Marathon Psychology Organization” Cushman says that such “training is usually based on the belief that it is a universal truth that all human beings will have problems in life until they develop deep cathartic psychological insight, experience completely their every feeling, and live only in the present moment.”

Cushman goes on to explain that ”according to this ideology all defenses are bad and must be destroyed. They shape their group exercises in order to uncover and intensify the participants’ underlying conflicts and deficits. Everyone must be exposed to these exercises; there are no exceptions. When all defenses are destroyed, they claim there is literally no limit to what each individual can accomplish.”  Sound familiar??  Break 'em down to build 'em up?

What the psychologist describes is reflected in Landmark Education’s repetitious vocabulary filled with buzz words like “breakthrough,” “integrity,” “transformation” and “completion” that become a kind of “loaded language” for its graduates.

Landmark’s spokesperson told the press in Perth that the LGAT enabled children to “gain clarity” and “examine their lives in a way, which leaves them empowered,” which gives them “a new freedom in life…[for] powerfully facing…risks and challenges…”

Cushman pointed out more than a dozen serious problems that frequently pop up wit LGAT groups like Landmark.

   1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

   2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

   3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.

   4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

   5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

   6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

   7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

   8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

   9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of “experiencing” without self-analysis or reflection.

  10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

  11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

  12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously “fabricate” a cure.

 13. They fail to adequately consider the “psychonoxious” or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.    Ya think??

Cushman warns specifically ”as a result, participants and leaders may unconsciously distort their feelings and responses when reporting to researchers about the group or recruiting for future groups. This might result in a deceptive ‘oversell’ that could undermine informed consent and lead to unrealistic regressive expectations in new recruits, the specific type of problems that have been found to lead to psychological casualties.”

Landmark’s long history of personal injury lawsuits goes back to its old “est” days.

Many participants claimed they were hurt by Landmark and some sued.

In fact, Landmark is so concerned about legal liability that it now requires participants to sign a waiver, whereby they cannot take the company to court before a jury, but instead must submit to “binding arbitration.”  Essentially, this acts as “poison pill” to fend off litigation.  Does this sound like something that an 8 to 12-year-old child or teen should be involved in?  Path to 'salvation'?Landmark is good at persuading people that its courses are positive and that they somehow produce benefits.

In polling gathered through surveys often sponsored and/or paid for by the company, a high percentage of its graduates are convinced that they benefited in some way from attending the LGAT.  

However, these are subjective responses about how participants feel, not objective results that have been scientifically measured.


Ding, ding, ding!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Should parents and the general public be wary?  Is there something potentially unsafe about an LGAT like Landmark?

According to Cushman’s research LGATs can become “dangerous” when they demonstrates the following criteria:

   1. Leaders [have] rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group and when they should change.

   2. Leaders [have] no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

   3. Leaders [have] an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

   4. Leaders [are] true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, “blaming the victim.”


Landmark’s own training manuals for its Forum Supervisors states, “a Landmark ‘Forum Supervisor’ needs to be an s.o.b. for impeccability. You need to give up a concern for being liked…Be a destroyer…” and “Don’t ever let people move or stand up or talk before you have declared the start of the break.  Don’t ever let stuff like that go by.  Ever, ever, ever.”


Landmark’s own warnings and disclaimers in its application for the Landmark Forum states, “…people will from time to time cry or experience headaches, tiredness, nausea, confusion, disappointment, feelings of anxiety, uncertainty, and hopelessness.  Some participants may find the Program physically, mentally, and emotionally stressful.”  

In an article titled “Drive-thru Deliverance“ a Forum leader reportedly told participants “Anything you want in life is possible that you invent as a possibility and enroll others in your having gotten.”

Those attending the Forum in Phoenix asked “why the rules [were] so rigid”?

They were told that “transformation” required following rules, and they soon learned that those that broke the rules might be humiliated and labeled as “uncoachable.”


Werner Erhard the seminar guru that concocted this LGAT claimed that he received a revelation while driving on a California freeway in 1971, he realized that he knew nothing. And the instant he realized that he knew nothing, he then realized he knew everything, and everything was good.

Landmark teaches a philosophy that becomes a belief system for its adherents, and some seem to consider it their “salvation.”
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2010, 12:35:50 PM »
Aaahm, Anne,  you forgot to mention the article was written by a guy who kidnapped an 18 year old kid and held him in a room for 5 days, demanded money from the boys parents.  He handcuffed him and placed duct tape over the boys mouth so that he couldn’t talk or scream for help.  The boy was abused and denied privacy.
He was successfully sued and lost everything.  He now writes articles for fringe newspapers who will pay him for his fiction.

You will also notice the website this article was posted on is http://www.cultnews.com

So this guy and what he does is okay with you?  Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?

Article Link

Scott struggled, but was held down and handcuffed by the three men, gagged with duct tape from ear to ear, and had his ankles tied with rope. As he lay face down and with his cuffed hands beneath his body, one of the men, weighing 300 pounds, sat on top of his back. Scott's legs, upper body and back had sustained multiple bruises and abrasions from being dragged to the van across stairs, floors and a patio.
Scott was driven to a beach cottage, where the rope around his ankles was loosened sufficiently to enable him to make steps. Ross and his partners walked him into the house, one of the men leading him on a nylon leash, another holding his handcuffs. Ross and his partners had made the house a virtual prison; the windows were covered with thick nylon straps forming a mesh, to prevent escape. The two doors to the room where he was held were guarded. His captors also took his shoes and fitted the room with motion detectors. According to Shupe and Darnell's (2006) account of court testimony, Scott demanded that he be allowed to leave, and asked Ross whether he would try to make him change his religious beliefs. Ross was said to have replied that that was what he was paid to do. When Scott threatened Ross with criminal prosecution, Ross was said to have threatened Scott that he would handcuff him to the bed frame.
Scott testified that he then endured five days of derogatory comments about himself, his beliefs, his girlfriend and his pastor, and diatribes by Ross about the ways in which Christianity and conservative Protestantism were wrong. He was intimidated, forced to watch videos on cults and told his church was just the same. He said he was watched 24 hours a day. On every visit to the bathroom, he was accompanied by at least two men. Every day, Ross argued with Scott about matters of religion, without giving him a chance to say anything in return, often tapping him or hitting him on the head to underscore his points while Scott was being restrained or closely watched. Scott was told that he would only regain his liberty once the deprogramming had been concluded successfully and he had given up his beliefs.
After four days, Scott began to pretend that he had changed his mind, feigning tears and remorse, in the hope that this would in due course give him a chance to escape The final day of his imprisonment he spent watching films on New Age religions and channeling, even though neither are related to Pentecostalism. Scott's plan ultimately worked; Ross, pleased with the apparent success of the deprogramming session, proposed that they all went out to meet with Scott's family for a celebratory dinner. In the restaurant, Scott was allowed to go the men's room by himself; he ran out and called the police, who arrested Ross and his companions on suspicion of unlawful imprisonment. Initially, the charges were dismissed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 12:40:41 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Aaahm, Anne,  you forgot to mention the article was written by a guy who kidnapped an 18 year old kid and held him in a room for 5 days, demanded money from the boys parents.  He handcuffed him and placed duct tape over the boys mouth so that he couldn’t talk or scream for help.  The boy was abused and denied privacy.
He was successfully sued and lost everything.  He now writes articles for fringe newspapers who will pay him for his fiction.

Wow....that's horrible.  Doesn't negate what the article says though.

Quote
You will also notice the website this article was posted on is http://www.cultnews.com

Why, yes.  Yes it is.  Because that's where I went to find it.  ::)

Quote
So this guy and what he does is okay with you?  Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?

You just can't help putting words in other peoples' mouths, can you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Kids trained by Landmark Education, is it "brainwashing"...
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 12:42:46 PM »
Some pertinent info for the piece copied out in the OP:


    06.23.06
Kids trained by Landmark Education, is it "brainwashing" or their "salvation"?
Posted in Landmark Education at 2:59 pm by Rick Ross


Werner Erhard, 1970s

<snip snip>


A $avior?
[/list]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 12:52:26 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Wow....that's horrible. Doesn't negate what the article says though.

Well, actually it does. But I am sure the followers of the website like his stuff or they wouldn't be paying him for it.

 
Quote
  So this guy and what he does is okay with you? Abuse is okay as long as it is for a cause you approve of?

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
You just can't help putting words in other peoples' mouths, can you?

Again, you should slow down and not jump to conclusions... you will notice there are question marks at the end of each sentence.



...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 01:46:39 PM by Whooter »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 12:54:30 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Wow....that's horrible.  Doesn't negate what the article says though.

Well, actually it does.


I'm sure it does in your eyes, but back here in reality....uh, no.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 12:55:14 PM »
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Paul St. John

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 12:59:54 PM »
Encounter groups?

Confrontational "Therapy"?

Whooter, I haven t been able to get into many conversations with ya, because I don t know anything about the programs that you are talking about..


But do you approve of confrontational therapy, and encounter groups?

Because if you do, I can write an article right here, and I never kidnapped anybody.. besides even if I had, the logic will be too solid for you to refute it without being full of shit..

Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

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Stress fear in $700 child forum
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 01:03:45 PM »
Quote
Kids as young as eight were recently enrolled at a cost of "$700 a child" in Australia to go through Landmark's "intensive three-day workshop" reported The Sunday Times.
Here's that article referred to in the OP:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Stress fear in $700 child forum
WA children as young as eight who attend "life-changing" coaching sessions by a controversial US company could have difficulty with their schoolwork afterwards, according to experts.

The Sunday Times, Australia
June 11, 2006

By Peta Hellard


Landmark Education, a multi-million dollar corporation based in San Francisco, is charging families $700 a child to attend its Forum for Young People, which it claims creates "breakthrough results".

About 40 WA children aged from eight to 12 are enrolled in the intensive three-day workshop, which will be held in Perth in August.

The course will see children skip school on a Friday, working from 9am to 6pm for three days straight over the weekend and having to complete assignments during lunchbreaks and for homework, then begin a full school week on the Monday.

WA child development and education experts are concerned about the intensive hours of the course and about children being taken out of school for a day to attend the high-cost forum.

Adolescent psychologist Michael Carr-Gregg urged parents to be wary of dipping into their family budget to send children to the course – which costs more than $230 a day.

"The personal-development material being taught in WA schools is perfectly adequate so I would regard this (course) with enormous scepticism and as a complete and utter waste of money," Dr Carr-Gregg said.

"If a child has a major psychological problem they should go to a fully qualified, government-accredited professional, rather than some 'you beaut' system imported from America."

Association of Independent Schools of WA deputy executive director Valerie Gould said that without a regular weekend break to relax, children would likely be tired and distracted during lessons in the ensuing days.

"Overloading children on the weekend could make them less able to deal with the following week at school," she said.

"I think sticking a kid in there for three days is pretty awful. The only legitimate reasons parents should take children out of school is for a medical reason or urgent family business."

Landmark Education spokeswoman Deb Beroset said the organisation condoned parents taking their children out of school for a day so the youngsters could attend the course.

"We trust parents to make the appropriate choices for their children," Ms Beroset said.

"The schedule has been reviewed by our health and education professional advisers to their approval."

Course material says the program enables children to "gain clarity" and "examine their lives in a way which leaves them empowered", giving them "a new freedom in life".

Organisers also claim the course can result in breakthroughs in several areas, including "seeing rules and agreements as a way to have life work", "generating excellence in school" and "powerfully facing the risks and challenges of life".

A WA police officer told The Sunday Times that he was concerned after his former wife sought the required consent from him for their daughter to attend the course in Perth.

The officer, who did not want to be named, said after researching the group on the internet, he declined to give permission.

"It struck me as a money-making enterprise and I really thought that the three-day seminar could be quite stressful and draining," he said.

"An eight-year-old shouldn't be doing anything more stressful or draining than a times table or spelling test."

Adrian van Leen – director of Concerned Christian Growth Ministries, a WA organisation that investigates cult and other groups – said parents should think twice about allowing their children to participate.

"Children should be learning from general life experiences and growth rather than an abbreviated, pressure-cooker teaching course," he said.

Landmark Education's US-based legal counsel Art Schreiber said parents should not be concerned about their children taking part.

"There is nothing cult-like or religious about our programs," he said.

"Landmark Education is an international training and development company that offers a unique educational program that creates breakthrough results for people and organisations."

Previously known as Est, Landmark Education was founded in 1971 by Werner Erhard, a former used-car and door-to-door encyclopedia salesman, after he quit Scientology.

Like other US direct-marketing companies, it relies on word-of-mouth for promotion and recruitment of new clients.

Landmark Education has grown to become a worldwide giant, with courses offered in 140 cities through 52 offices across 23 countries. It made a total revenue of $100 million in 2005, with $9 million of that coming from its Australian arm.

Only children of people who have completed at least one of Landmark Education's adult courses are allowed to be enrolled in the course.

Ms Beroset said since the children's course was launched in Australia 12 years ago, 1940 children had participated.

Since 2000 when it was first held in its Hay St, Perth, office, 286 WA children have taken part.

Landmark Education's Perth office refused to make any comment to The Sunday Times about its upcoming course, referring all inquiries to its head office in the US.


# #
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 01:04:03 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?

See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth.  I dont see it that way.  Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 01:09:30 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?

See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth.  I dont see it that way.  Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.




Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 01:17:54 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
So then, you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?

See, now when someone asks "you" a question you get all defensive and accuse them of putting words in your mouth.  I dont see it that way.  Questions are a way of getting answers, initiating discussions and gaining insight.




Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.

Calm down, Anne.  You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do.  See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions.  So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours.  Lets keep the same standard for everyone.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

Calm down, Anne.  You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do.  See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions.  So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours.  Lets keep the same standard for everyone.


Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 01:24:47 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

Calm down, Anne.  You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do.  See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions.  So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours.  Lets keep the same standard for everyone.


Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.

Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 01:31:14 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

Calm down, Anne.  You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do.  See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions.  So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours.  Lets keep the same standard for everyone.


Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.

Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.



...


'sawright Whooter.....we can all see that you can't/won't answer.  If you do, you either admit that we've been right all along or you admit that you approve of using these techniques on children.  You lose either way, so you refuse to answer.  Just like you've been avoiding Awake's Double Bind thread.  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa