Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[AuntieEm2]

Of course I'm biased, Whooter, you twit.

My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are the one who won't admit to your biases.

And It is not a biased statement to say that there has been a finding of homicide in this boy's death--not manslaughter, not neglect, not accidental death, not oops-the-hike-took-longer-than-expected.

Homicide. That's murder, in case you misplaced your dictionary.

Auntie Em

[Anne Bonney]

wrong again, here it is:

Joel stated:
Behavior issues (Incorrect terminology Whooter used wrong place/wrong time) often result from dehydration, lack of food, lack of sleep, improper restraints, forced tripping (hiking, canoeing etc), inadequate clothing, staff believing he/she is "faking it" and lack of common sense from staff.

The article nor myself ever mentioned improper restraints,forced tripping, inadequate clothing etc. results in behavior issues.  So any incorrect terminology was coming from Joel.  If you had read the article you would have known this.

Lets try to keep the discussion on the topic at hand and dispense with the personal attacks.  Take a few minutes to read the article and jump in.

Just stop.  Seriously.  You're just embarrassing yourself.  Again.

How many kids does Aspen have to kill in order for you to put at least a shred of the responsibility on them?  Honestly, nobody who is "simply a program parent" would be spinning as hard as you've been trying to do.

[Troll Control]

Yeah, Anne.  Let's talk about ANYTHING but the documented, proven fact that Aspen Education and its employees abuse, neglect, maim, rape and kill kids.

Yep.  

Seriously, how many kids does that make that Aspen has killed now?  And how many of those were either restraints or they were just hiked to death?

Several in the past year.  To go along with at least 3 facility closures for abuse and neglect that I'm aware of.  Could be more though.

Aspen Education MURDERS CHILDREN IN ITS CARE.  :poison:  :peace:

Honestly, nobody who is "simply a program parent" would be spinning as hard as you've been trying to do.

True indeed, Anne.  You can click on the link in my signature to see Whooter's original post where he claims a "fiduciary interest" in Aspen Education's potential takeover of HLA.  He's no "regular parent."  Far, far from it.

[Whooter]

My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.

… and thus the bases for a biased look at the industry.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are the one who won't admit to your biases.

I admit I have biases too (always have).  But I try to take a more intellectual approach and realize that some programs can be bad and others can be good.  I don’t respond with just my emotions or I would be trying to tell everyone that “All” programs are good and “All” children who go to them do extremely well.

See the difference?

And It is not a biased statement to say that there has been a finding of homicide in this boy's death--not manslaughter, not neglect, not accidental death, not oops-the-hike-took-longer-than-expected.

One person out of the investigators think this is a homicide case right now.  There are others who have not classified it this way.  Again your bias,  the investigation is still on going.

If you look at your own post you will see that they made extra stops because of Sergey’s condition.  If you think about another half hour break and the possibility that Sergey was not walking as fast as the others then it is easy to conclude that the 2 hour hike took much longer than expected.
Your bias was in the conclusion that the person making the statement (2 hour hike) was trying to deceive or telling a lie.  

Homicide. That's murder, in case you misplaced your dictionary.

Wow!!  You threw me a bone! I think we can agree on this one (without a dictionary). Now if you said suicide I might pause and have to look it up. lol



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[Anne Bonney]

My niece was held captive for more than 3 years with no contact with any family member other than her parents, and no treatment or support for the learning challenges she faces, just blame and shame, blame and shame.

… and thus the bases for a biased look at the industry.

And the basis for yours?   $$$$$$$$$$$$.  And, if you are Reuben, to justify what you paid people to do to your own child.

I admit I have biases too (always have).  But I try to take a more intellectual approach

You fail.

One person out of the investigators think this is a homicide case right now.  There are others who have not classified it this way.  Again your bias,  the investigation is still on going.

And how many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to put any of the responsibility on them?  How many kids does Aspen have to kill, especially in the manner of restraint or hiking them to death, in order for you to see the systemic aspect of it?

[Whooter]

And the basis for yours?

I had a daughter who was very successful in the program she attended.  So I would naturally be biased as being pro-program.  But I have been able to step back and see the larger picture and realize that some kids don’t do well and some programs are not that healthy.
Many people posting on fornits are not able or willing to do this.  They can only see the industry from a very narrow point of view and react via their own emotions vs using their intellegence.  So that is why my opinion and outlook on the industry is more balanced, in my opinion..

And how many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to put any of the responsibility on them? How many kids does Aspen have to kill, especially in the manner of restraint or hiking them to death, in order for you to see the systemic aspect of it?

Well for the problem to be considered systemic I think we would have to look at how many kids are exposed to wilderness and what percentage of them die as a result.  Compare this to something we would consider “Normal” like football camp or high school track (outward bound maybe) and see how out of skew the TTI is compared to these.

But to jump up and down everytime a kid chokes on a French fry to have McDonalds closed or want to close the public school system every time a child hangs themselves or is abused is reckless unless we understand the results.  Are more kids are helped by the public school system then are hurt by it?

It is very possible that if they just closed all the wilderness programs that more kids would die from other causes.  Its important that decisions be “Data driven” not just driven by one persons passion.

For me it is important to understand how these deaths occurred so that we can apply this knowledge to other existing programs to prevent this from happening again.  To run around screaming “Lets shut down the industry” doesnt add any value or help the kids who are presently in programs.



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[Anne Bonney]

And the basis for yours?

I had a daughter who was very successful in the program she attended.  So I would naturally be biased as being pro-program.  But I have been able to step back and see the larger picture and realize that some kids don’t do well and some programs are not that healthy.
Many people posting on fornits are not able or willing to do this.  They can only see the industry from a very narrow point of view and react via their own emotions vs using their intellegence. (sorry guys, snarky I know but I had to.  you can't misspell the word intelligence and not be called on it)  So that is why my opinion and outlook on the industry is more balanced, in my opinion..

And I maintain that there is no way in hell that someone who is "simply a program parent" would:

1.  Remain here for the years you have

2.  Defend every single thing programs do, no matter how reprehensible they are.  Especially the deaths. And that you're so fucking cavalier about it.  Refusing to even acknowledge that some of the most basic human rights are being denied these kids.

Well for the problem to be considered systemic I think we would have to look at how many kids are exposed to wilderness and what percentage of them die as a result.  Compare this to something we would consider “Normal” like football camp or high school track (outward bound maybe) and see how out of skew the TTI is compared to these.

But to jump up and down everytime a kid chokes on a French fry to have McDonalds closed or want to close the public school system every time a child hangs themselves or is abused is reckless unless we understand the results.  Are more kids are helped by the public school system then are hurt by it?

It is very possible that if they just closed all the wilderness programs that more kids would die from other causes.  Its important that decisions be “Data driven” not just driven by one persons passion.

For me it is important to understand how these deaths occurred so that we can apply this knowledge to other existing programs to prevent this from happening again.  To run around screaming “Lets shut down the industry” doesnt add any value or help the kids who are presently in programs.

Fuck off with your ridiculous analogies.  It's all just more deflection.  Just answer the damn question.  How many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to lay ANY responsibility at all at their feet?

[Troll Control]

Aspen Education programs and staff are abusing, neglecting and killing children.  It only stands to reason that shutting Aspen Ed programs will prevent that abuse and murder.  Conversely, keeping them open will create more abuse, neglect and killing.

This is the reasoning behind the state of Oregon's forcible closure of two Aspen facilities that investigators found to be "systematically abusing and neglecting children" in their care.  So, at least for now, those Aspen Ed facilities won't be murdering any more kids.  Therefore, child safety is increased.

[Whooter]

And I maintain that there is no way in hell that someone who is "simply a program parent" would:

1. Remain here for the years you have

2. Defend every single thing programs do, no matter how reprehensible they are. Especially the deaths. And that you're so fucking cavalier about it. Refusing to even acknowledge that some of the most basic human rights are being denied these kids.

You mistake looking for the truth and taking a balanced look for defending programs.  Show me a post where I have defended the program against this childs death.  You want me to close my eyes to any facts (like you do) and just say that all programs are harmful.
That wont happen and very few people outside of fornits think that way.

If you feel I am not a program parent that is your choice and is okay.  I have my feelings about other posters here too that may or may not be true, so you are not alone.

Fuck off with your ridiculous analogies. It's all just more deflection. Just answer the damn question. How many kids does Aspen have to kill for you to lay ANY responsibility at all at their feet?

I answered that question but again you closed your mind to the answer.  Let me re-answer without the analogies if that helps.

In order for us to consider the deaths to be systemic we would need to compare the TTI industry to other industries which we consider “Normal”… say football camp or outward bound programs to see how many deaths they incur per year.  If the results show that wilderness programs have an extremely higher incidence of death then these acceptable activities do then I would say the problem may be systemic.  But there is no magic number in my head.


How many deaths would you say is needed to determine the problem is systemic?



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[Anne Bonney]

You mistake looking for the truth and taking a balanced look for defending programs.  Show me a post where I have defended the program against this childs death.  You want me to close my eyes to any facts (like you do) and just say that all programs are harmful.

Don't think you have any clue what I 'want'.  

If you feel I am not a program parent that is your choice and is okay.  I have my feelings about other posters here too that may or may not be true, so you are not alone.

You might be, but also much more IMO.  And if your daughter had such a wonderful experience, why not let her share it here?  If she's so grateful and supportive of them, I'd think she'd be the one here day after day after day after day after day after day after day.  You're getting first hand accounts of what it's like to be in one of the programs, yet all we get from you is your experience as an outsider.  No matter how much 'family involvement' they claim there is, there is NO WAY IN HELL anyone can understand what it's like and the devastating consequences unless you've experienced it first hand.

I answered that question but again you closed your mind to the answer.  Let me re-answer without the analogies if that helps.

And you go on to use yet another analogy.

In order for us to consider the deaths to be systemic we would need to compare the TTI industry to other industries which we consider “Normal”… say football camp or outward bound programs to see how many deaths they incur per year.  If the results show that wilderness programs have an extremely higher incidence of death then these acceptable activities do then I would say the problem may be systemic.  But there is no magic number in my head.

NO MORE ANALOGIES

[Whooter]

Don't think you have any clue what I 'want'.

For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death.  I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.

You might be, but also much more IMO. And if your daughter had such a wonderful experience, why not let her share it here? If she's so grateful and supportive of them, I'd think she'd be the one here day after day after day after day after day after day after day. You're getting first hand accounts of what it's like to be in one of the programs, yet all we get from you is your experience as an outsider. No matter how much 'family involvement' they claim there is, there is NO WAY IN HELL anyone can understand what it's like and the devastating consequences unless you've experienced it first hand.

Again you take the narrow view.  Step back a little and listen to what you are saying.  You need to remember that there is no way in hell you could understand what it is like to be a program parent.  Yet many of you pretend to know how we think and what lead to the placements.  Whats is like to have a child in a program?  You don’t have a clue.  So you see there is a larger picture than just knowing how you feel or what its like to be in a program.

And you go on to use yet another analogy.

Read it Anne.  Try to understand what I am saying.  Its not an analogy.  
If you are in a closed system and only look at the kids that die in programs how can you decide if the problem is unique to just programs or if children die at the same rate in other situations like public school or football camp etc.  There is no way you can determine if a 1, 5, 10 deaths a year is a problem or out of the ordinary. How can you unless you have a benchmark to work from or to compare?



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

You are actually telling me not to be hard on the staff?  I am at a loss of words with you Whooter.   What they thought was the right thing to do was serious negligence.  The lead staff on the trip was Dan K who died years later.  He led numerous wilderness trips and he should have know better.  You have no idea how much pain I suffered that day, yet you say, "I wouldn't be too hard on the staff who carried you down the mountain the next day." Why should people have to explain the basics to you Whooter.  Please save your ATM comparisons for the fool down the road.

Well there was information that wasn’t given.  Were the staff trained properly to determine the difference between a sprained ankle and a broken ankle?  When I was in my 20’s and if a buddy of mine tripped and broke/sprained his ankle in the woods I am not so sure I would be panicking thinking he was in serious enough trouble that we couldn’t rest for the night and see if the swelling went down.  Then make a new assessment in the morning.  Your in the woods there are not many options available.  If this were at home I would have driven the guy over to the doctors to have it checked out, but I wouldn't call an ambulance even if I thought it were broken.

I don’t think resting for the night would be classified as serious negligence, Joel.



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Che Gookin]

Last time I sprained my ankle I couldn't walk for three days and I needed a prescription of Vicodin to manage the pain (well not really, but the doc was all class ). So does it really matter if he broke his ankle or sprained it? Being unable to walk for either reason constitutes significant cause to get some medical attention on scene or immediately get the person to medical attention.