Way more kids praise programs than attack them, why is that?

[Ursus]

Dear the prior poster
Can you provide a link to the actual study you are referring to rather than hyperlinks to summaries of the studies prepared by a business trying to use the study to increase their business.  Thanks

Study

The one you cited before done by Canyon Research???  Owned by Ellen Behrens? and heavily associated with NATSAP?  Not really unbiased.

http://canyonrc.com/experience.html#clients

Check out their client list....

Aspen Education
Aspen Ranch
Academy at Swift River
Copper Canyon Academy
Family Light
Life Line
Mount Bachelor Academy
New Life
Northstar
Stone Mountain School
Sunhawk Academy
Turnabout Ranch
Youth Care



http://clients.morningstarinteractive.c ... mmitee.asp

The NATSAP Research committee members:

      John Santa, Ph.D. - Committee Chair, Montana Academy

      Ellen Behrens, Ph.D., Canyon Research and Consulting

      Rob Cooley, Ph.D., Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy Expeditions
 
      Mike Gass, Ph.D., University of New Hampshire
 
      Kyle Gillette, Ph.D., Solstice RTC
   
      Michael Merchant, ANASAZI Foundation
   
      Beverly Richard, MSW, Three Springs
   
      Brent Hall, MS, Discovery Academy
   
      John Hall, LMFT, Telos
   
      Frank Bartolomeo, Ph.D., The Academy at Swift River
   
      Joanna Bettmann, Ph.D., Open Sky Wilderness Therapy

This study was also well discussed in the following threads:

Ellen Behren's Industry Study Funded by AEG · viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28834
Troubled Teen Industry Studies · viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684[/list]

[DannyB II]

...

[Whooter]

Dear the prior poster
Can you provide a link to the actual study you are referring to rather than hyperlinks to summaries of the studies prepared by a business trying to use the study to increase their business.  Thanks

Study

The one you cited before done by Canyon Research???  Owned by Ellen Behrens? and heavily associated with NATSAP?  Not really unbiased.

http://canyonrc.com/experience.html#clients

Check out their client list....

Aspen Education
Aspen Ranch
Academy at Swift River
Copper Canyon Academy
Family Light
Life Line
Mount Bachelor Academy
New Life
Northstar
Stone Mountain School
Sunhawk Academy
Turnabout Ranch
Youth Care



http://clients.morningstarinteractive.c ... mmitee.asp

The NATSAP Research committee members:

      John Santa, Ph.D. - Committee Chair, Montana Academy

      Ellen Behrens, Ph.D., Canyon Research and Consulting

      Rob Cooley, Ph.D., Catherine Freer Wilderness Therapy Expeditions
 
      Mike Gass, Ph.D., University of New Hampshire
 
      Kyle Gillette, Ph.D., Solstice RTC
   
      Michael Merchant, ANASAZI Foundation
   
      Beverly Richard, MSW, Three Springs
   
      Brent Hall, MS, Discovery Academy
   
      John Hall, LMFT, Telos
   
      Frank Bartolomeo, Ph.D., The Academy at Swift River
   
      Joanna Bettmann, Ph.D., Open Sky Wilderness Therapy

This study was also well discussed in the following threads:

Ellen Behren's Industry Study Funded by AEG · viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28834
Troubled Teen Industry Studies · viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684[/list]

Talk about bullet proof!!!  I think everyone on fornits took a shot at trying to discredit the study to no avail.  There was no conflict of interest found (not even a slight trace to an IBM software program somewhere) lol.

But in all fairness if there are ever concerns then they should be forwarded to the "oversight committee" for review and they will determine if it tainted the study or not.  That is how it is done.



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[Ursus]

dear anonymous

   I have seen and read the study you linked to.  Stripped of its wrapping it  compares how parents see their kids and kids see themselves  on the day they are sent into a program and the day they leave.  That kind of survey, even if dressed up with scientific language and statistics to make it look serious, is not worthy of discussion.   I thought from your earlier post that there was a one year follow up.  Has that been published? Is that true?  Where can I find it?  Thanks

Many people came out against many of the heart studies (initially) and most were professionals in the field.  But the studies stood the test of time and lead us to determine that cholesterol is bad for us and this lead to the development of coronary stents.
This (Aspen Study) consisted of about 1,000 families so the results are considerable.  When the population size was only 17 people had a problem with that too.  So I don’t see a study ever getting accepted here on fornits.  But this study stands within the professional community and that is what really counts.

I dont have the original study which was done 1 year out, at hand.  When I find I will toss a link up.

Yes, yes, we've gone through this song and dance before. Several times, I think. I guess this "study" musta got soooo bunked, Whooter, that you're too embarrassed to furnish the link anymore. Here it is, for those who don't have it yet: http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf

As has been pointed out previously, this is a student paper, apparently done as part of Shapiro's graduation requirements. While I wouldn't be willing to toss it on that basis alone, it becomes readily apparent, even on the first read ... that this is a whole lot o' spun sugar. Note that results are presented in terms of percentages, the better to obscure the statistical irrelevance of the actual numbers, lol.

[Anne Bonney]

Yep, he linked to another one not too long ago, bit that was thrashed as well for its industry connections so he won't throw that one up either.

Goddamn, but these people/places are incestuous.

[Whooter]

Yes, yes, we've gone through this song and dance before. Several times, I think. I guess this "study" musta got soooo bunked, Whooter, that you're too embarrassed to furnish the link anymore. Here it is, for those who don't have it yet: http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf

As has been pointed out previously, this is a student paper, apparently done as part of Shapiro's graduation requirements. While I wouldn't be willing to toss it on that basis alone, it becomes readily apparent, even on the first read ... that this is a whole lot o' spun sugar. Note that results are presented in terms of percentages, the better to obscure the statistical irrelevance of the actual numbers, lol.

I know, Ursus, these studies are a thorn in your side, but they just wont go away.  No one has debunked any of them that I am aware of.  But you can keep hoping.. in the mean time lets take a look.

You can gain quite a bit of information by pulling a small sample.  If you have 500 people and you interview a small sample of say 13, then there are statistical tables which will tell you how confident you can be in your results… i.e  90%, 95%, 99%, 99.9%  etc. and the degree of error you can expect to be built into your results (i.e. +/- 5%).  Thats the strength of statistics, you don't need to sample everyone to gain a perspective!

Ursus I held off in responding to give yourself a chance to edit your post.  You must be very unfamiliar with statistics if you think using percentages is a flaw of some type.  They go hand in hand.

I thought the Shapiro study was very interesting.  The program opened their doors to a graduate student who had very little to no knowledge of the industry and allowed her to conduct a study.  (This is the same program which allowed a Pulitzer prized author to follow students through their entire stay and then wrote a book on his findings).  So some could argue that she was not experienced enough to know what questions to ask and maybe someone who had previous experience with the industry would be in a better position to conduct studies… Hmmm.  But either way information is information and we need to consider all of it.  I think it would be short sighted of us to toss out and ignore survivors stories because there were only 4 or 5 recorded here on fornits vs the tens of thousands who have graduated and calling them insignificant.

Overall the Shapiro study showed the program of ASR to be very effective and encouraged more studies to be conducted.  This also discarded the believes here that these programs are secretive and operate behind closed doors.  Also, like Anne mentioned, "there are other studies out there" which further supports the fact that these programs are effective.



...

[pelberglaw]

to danny b- I am a new jersey lawyer. My name is phil elberg.  I have been interested in these issues since i litigated the Kids/Miller Newton cases a few years back.  I have been involved in litigation against Thayer Learning Center and defended/represented  ISAC and FORNITS in lawsuits against them started by Sue Scheff, WWASP and Thayer Learning Center.  I was President of the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) for several years and I am on the CAFETY advisory board.  

to anonymous- I am not interested in a back and forth with you for the reasons I have previously expressed.  I find your anonymous presence on this site creepy. I am interested in reading anything that you or anyone else believes is a study that supports what these programs do.  I have read the Behrens work.  I have read a 1999 dissertation by Keith Russell which is oft cited.  I have read David Marcus' well written book, What it takes to Pull me Through. What else is there that has been published anywhere by anyone you believe is independent as you understand that word that supports what the facilities you believe in do.   If there is a follow up on the Behrens work please tell me where to find it.  You refer to studies-plural (not study) and I would like to know what you are referring to. Again, i am not interested in your views or a debate but a list would be great.  I am hopeful to write on these issues in the next few months and I do not want to miss anything.  Thanks

[DannyB II]

I wish Anne but it just is not true, actually you are the small percentage and your high middle class to upper class folks you hang with here.
Most of the folks we listen to here, came from middle to upper class  parents who paid for the treatment, though the treatment was probably bogus.
So Anne your right, in your world those 3 choices were probably not valid but outside your world where the masses live those choices are.

What??  I truly have no idea what the hell you're trying to say.

Anne what I am saying, is I don't believe you even know folks with limited choices in life even exist, you cannot identify.

You come from a different world.

There are many people out there Anne, more then I think you know, with 3 choices.......death, jails or mental hospitals. Period.

[DannyB II]

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[DannyB II]

..

[Awake]

dear anonymous

   I have seen and read the study you linked to.  Stripped of its wrapping it  compares how parents see their kids and kids see themselves  on the day they are sent into a program and the day they leave.  That kind of survey, even if dressed up with scientific language and statistics to make it look serious, is not worthy of discussion.   I thought from your earlier post that there was a one year follow up.  Has that been published? Is that true?  Where can I find it?  Thanks

Jeesh Whooter, it looks like they had to run out and get some real competition to combat your steady diet of common sense rebuttals.
Mr Elberg there is a old saying, "A blind person who sees is better than a seeing person who is blind". - Iranian (on wisdom)

I have not gotten a common sense rebuttal despite numerous invitations. Who's blind here? or at least pretending to be.

Double Bind: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0


.

[Whooter]

dear anonymous

   I have seen and read the study you linked to.  Stripped of its wrapping it  compares how parents see their kids and kids see themselves  on the day they are sent into a program and the day they leave.  That kind of survey, even if dressed up with scientific language and statistics to make it look serious, is not worthy of discussion.   I thought from your earlier post that there was a one year follow up.  Has that been published? Is that true?  Where can I find it?  Thanks

Jeesh Whooter, it looks like they had to run out and get some real competition to combat your steady diet of common sense rebuttals.
Mr Elberg there is a old saying, "A blind person who sees is better than a seeing person who is blind". - Iranian (on wisdom)

Danny, its another fornits sham, I have been around enough lawyers to know this guy isnt one.  First of all lawyers like to discuss anything and everything, ad nauseum.  Secondly every lawyer I have ever known likes to sit down at the table eyeball to eyeball and have a discussion.  They don’t freak out because someone at the table isn't wearing a name tag and then start talking out of the sides of their mouth.  If he really is who he says he is then he is probably retired and has lost his edge.  He could have sent an assistant to get the names of the outstanding studies.



...

[Ursus]

dear anonymous

   I have seen and read the study you linked to.  Stripped of its wrapping it  compares how parents see their kids and kids see themselves  on the day they are sent into a program and the day they leave.  That kind of survey, even if dressed up with scientific language and statistics to make it look serious, is not worthy of discussion.   I thought from your earlier post that there was a one year follow up.  Has that been published? Is that true?  Where can I find it?  Thanks

Jeesh Whooter, it looks like they had to run out and get some real competition to combat your steady diet of common sense rebuttals.
Mr Elberg there is a old saying, "A blind person who sees is better than a seeing person who is blind". - Iranian (on wisdom)

Danny, its another fornits sham, I have been around enough lawyers to know this guy isnt one.  First of all lawyers like to discuss anything and everything, ad nauseum.  Secondly every lawyer I have ever known likes to sit down at the table eyeball to eyeball and have a discussion.  They don’t freak out because someone at the table isn't wearing a name tag and then start talking out of the sides of their mouth.  If he really is who he says he is then he is probably retired and has lost his edge.  He could have sent an assistant to get the names of the outstanding studies.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."

— Plato[/list][/list]

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Phil, if that really is you and you're expecting straight answers out of the local programmies (or any other programmies, really), you're burning your expensive time.

[Whooter]

"He who doesn't have legs cannot teach one how to walk."
- unknown



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