Way more kids praise programs than attack them, why is that?

[Anne Bonney]

I could go along with that if the same consideration were given to parents who see the need to send their child to a program.  Unless you have raised a child who becomes at-risk then I don’t think anyone should criticize their decision to get help for them outside the home.  Many here make fun of the expression “dead, Insane or in jail”.  But in reality many kids end up in jail and dead in this country (not sure about the insanity part lol) who didn’t have the advantage of sending their children outside the home for help.

And I have experience with both being inside a program and know all too well what it can do to someone AND in raising an "at risk" child, yet you belittle and dismiss what I say.

Anne you attended a program about 30 years ago?  A lot has changed since then.

Not from what I've been reading, seeing and hearing.  The only significant changes I've seen is in the spin/marketing.

 

Your child responded to local services so you never had to consider any options beyond that.

No, my child did not respond well to local services.  We went thru years of struggling with her and she found her own way, with help from family, friends and eventually local services when she was an adult.

A very small percentage of children get to the point where the parents need to seek help outside the home and which don’t respond to local services.

Yep and those that do need 'outside' help need to get it from true professionals, using proven clinical methods...not pseudo-therapy developed by some cult guru to 'treat' hardcore heroin addicts (Synanon's "game"/attack/peer pressure/level system/confrontational 'therapy').

[Anne Bonney]

I could go along with that if the same consideration were given to parents who see the need to send their child to a program.  Unless you have raised a child who becomes at-risk then I don’t think anyone should criticize their decision to get help for them outside the home.  Many here make fun of the expression “dead, Insane or in jail”.  But in reality many kids end up in jail and dead in this country (not sure about the insanity part lol) who didn’t have the advantage of sending their children outside the home for help.

And I have experience with both being inside a program and know all too well what it can do to someone AND in raising an "at risk" child, yet you belittle and dismiss what I say.

Anne you attended a program about 30 years ago?  A lot has changed since then.  Your child responded to local services so you never had to consider any options beyond that.  A very small percentage of children get to the point where the parents need to seek help outside the home and which don’t respond to local services.

I think one of the greatest changes has been in the marketing; more specifically, in both the breadth of the target audience as well as greater sophistication in the means and the message of their advertising. Why, some of these folks even have their very own damage control experts!

 :tup:  :tup:  :rocker:  :cheers:  :nods:  :nods:  :nods:  :nods:  :nods:  :nods:

Moreover, as these programs learn how to really capitalize on cultural trends and drifts, not to mention "cooperation" from the pharmaceutical and correction industries, they might even find a way to pathologize the entirety of adolescence, rather than just the more so-called inconvenient aspects of it. I imagine the possibilities are endless, for those crafty and immoral enough!

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:

Those online "assessments" are cringe-worthy.

[Anne Bonney]

FemanonFatal2.0 wrote:
I actually find it funny, talking to my old program friends and aquaintences how many of them still believe that whole dead, insane or in jail bit... I mean you want proof of brainwashing?... How about the fact that they all give you the same line, without any evidence of that actually being the truth in their personal experience. Like our guest above said, most of us returned to bad behavior after we left far surpassing our childish attempts of rebellion before the program... and what do you know... were still here.

DannyBII wrote:
Femanon/MammaB23,
Well whether you want to believe this or not, it is true.....whole dead, insane or in jail bit.

For an extremely small percentage of people...and they need real help, not quack/newage 'therapy'.

[Whooter]

DJ was staff at several programs and maybe his use of attack therapy is the reason he didn’t succeed there, I really don’t know...

Whooter, I knew you'd be back attention-whoring soon.  You can't help yourself.

Anyway, since you already admit you don't know what you're talking about (nothing new to the rest of use here), let me set you straight.  I never have and never would use attack therapy on a child or any other person.  The reason I didn't "succeed" (i.e. continuously and flagrantly abuse children in my care) at the facilities you promote is that I resigned and reported them for abusing children, defrauding parents and making false claims to insurance companies.  

As you already know quite well, I (and others) continued this pressure on HLA until they were forced to shut down and it was the only "parent choice" facility for which I ever worked, so I guess in your terms, "several" means "one." (as in "Whooter held several jobs for several years." lols)

Now maybe you can explain to us why you have never held a job for more than a year in your entire adult life?  Maybe explain your criminal record?  Or possibly explain why you have bragged about being a financial player in the TTI?   :beat:  :beat:  :beat:

I'll check back later for your self-flagellating response.  Looking forward to your answers to those very simple questions.  Cheers.

 DJ, sorry that my reference of you, on a previous post, upset you but no one forced you to work for programs and it is not like you started working there and left after a few days or spent your entire time in the break room.  You participated or they wouldn’t have paid you.  You lined your pockets for years with the industries money and when you asked for a raise they rejected you and you had to move on and worked for another program and the same thing happened (I don’t believe your hot temper helped the situation any).  Why not be honest, DJ, no matter how much you try you cannot erase your past.  It is also well documented here on fornits that you like to threaten people with punching them out (or cleaning their clock lol) when you lose an argument,  we can easily imagine how you reacted to the kids when they got up into your face.  Attacking people is part of your general make-up and there is no getting around that.

After you realized you had no future working in programs you decided to turn on them (you didn’t do this while you were working there, remember).  Its very common for ex-employees to turn on their industry after being tossed out, you don’t get any points for that.  If you had called the police or child services while being employed then you could claim you were trying to distance yourself from the program and help the children, but you didn’t, the industries money was more important to you until it ran out.

Sorry, DJ, just wanted to be clear.  No hard feelings, I am sure you are a good guy.



...

[Whooter]

No, my child did not respond well to local services.  We went thru years of struggling with her and she found her own way, with help from family, friends and eventually local services when she was an adult.

Thats great, Anne, you are very fortunate that your child didnt require help outside the home and she was able to respond to help with family and friends to get her back on track.



...

[Ursus]

I think one of the greatest changes has been in the marketing; more specifically, in both the breadth of the target audience as well as greater sophistication in the means and the message of their advertising. Why, some of these folks even have their very own damage control experts!

They have improved in leaps and bound in marketing and defining their target audience, I agree, but the biggest changes, as I see it, is that these places are not cults anymore.  They have predetermined goals for each child and an expected graduation date, doing away with fences and monitored phone calls.  Each child has access to a therapist who is paid directly by the parents and not thru the school.  The therapists talk directly with the childs therapist at home  etc., etc.….Straight (and programs like them) never had this.

Those "expected graduation dates" can be remarkably flexible now, eh? And, why bother with putting up a fence when you can just confiscate a kid's shoes to prevent them from running away?

And, as to those "unmonitored" phone calls? Let's just try hanging that flexible graduation date over a kid's head for one stark disincentive for frank speech, lol. Folks have experienced many more such stifling factors, too numerous to mention here, but mentioned in many another thread...

And those therapists? They're not exactly "imported" by the parents. They work for the program or under some arrangement with the program. Depending on the facility, therapeutic services may or may not be a part of the package, but the therapists are almost never completely separate from the program's philosophy.

I guess I really don't get just how you claim these places are "not cults anymore?"

Moreover, as these programs learn how to really capitalize on cultural trends and drifts, not to mention "cooperation" from the pharmaceutical and correction industries, they might even find a way to pathologize the entirety of adolescence, rather than just the more so-called inconvenient aspects of it. I imagine the possibilities are endless, for those crafty and immoral enough!    

The possibilities "are" endless.  I think the more studies that keep coming out showing the effectiveness of these places the better people will feel about the safety of the industry as a whole and as they better hone their acceptance criteria and predicting which children will better benefit from each program the success rates will just continue to rise.

Yep! Let's not forget those unassailable "industry-sponsored" studies. Why muddy up parents' consciences with real and unbiased data on trauma when you can manufacture yer own! Why, with greater fine-tuning of the marketing paradigm, and experience in the art of the press release, I bet these programs can even find a way to assess success rates prior to enrollment!   :rofl:

[Anne Bonney]

I think one of the greatest changes has been in the marketing; more specifically, in both the breadth of the target audience as well as greater sophistication in the means and the message of their advertising. Why, some of these folks even have their very own damage control experts!

They have improved in leaps and bound in marketing and defining their target audience, I agree, but the biggest changes, as I see it, is that these places are not cults anymore.  They have predetermined goals for each child and an expected graduation date, doing away with fences and monitored phone calls.  Each child has access to a therapist who is paid directly by the parents and not thru the school.  The therapists talk directly with the childs therapist at home  etc., etc.….Straight (and programs like them) never had this.

Those "expected graduation dates" can be remarkably flexible now, eh? And, why bother with putting up a fence when you can just confiscate a kid's shoes to prevent them from running away?

Yeah, "exit plans" (basically a shunning of the child from the family) are remarkably effective at keeping the kids from running.  

And, as to those "unmonitored" phone calls? Let's just try hanging that flexible graduation date over a kid's head for one stark disincentive for frank speech, lol. Folks have experienced many more such stifling factors, too numerous to mention here, but mentioned in many another thread...

And those therapists? They're not exactly "imported" by the parents. They work for the program or under some arrangement with the program. Depending on the facility, therapeutic services may or may not be a part of the package, but the therapists are almost never completely separate from the program's philosophy.

I guess I really don't get just how you claim these places are "not cults anymore?"

Moreover, as these programs learn how to really capitalize on cultural trends and drifts, not to mention "cooperation" from the pharmaceutical and correction industries, they might even find a way to pathologize the entirety of adolescence, rather than just the more so-called inconvenient aspects of it. I imagine the possibilities are endless, for those crafty and immoral enough!    

The possibilities "are" endless.  I think the more studies that keep coming out showing the effectiveness of these places the better people will feel about the safety of the industry as a whole and as they better hone their acceptance criteria and predicting which children will better benefit from each program the success rates will just continue to rise.

Yep! Let's not forget those unassailable "industry-sponsored" studies. Why muddy up parents' consciences with real and unbiased data on trauma when you can manufacture yer own! Why, with greater fine-tuning of the marketing paradigm, and experience in the art of the press release, I bet these programs can even find a way to assess success rates prior to enrollment!   :rofl:

Yep....he doesn't even bother posting those "studies" anymore cuz he knows they're anything but unbiased.

[Whooter]

Those "expected graduation dates" can be remarkably flexible now, eh? And, why bother with putting up a fence when you can just confiscate a kid's shoes to prevent them from running away?

And, as to those "unmonitored" phone calls? Let's just try hanging that flexible graduation date over a kid's head for one stark disincentive for frank speech, lol. Folks have experienced many more such stifling factors, too numerous to mention here, but mentioned in many another thread...

The graduation dates can be flexible because each child is different.  I also agree with you that they can utilize this date to keep the kid in line, its probably a very effective tool.  The parents are told ahead of time to expect 12 to 14 months (which is rarely exceeded), so there are no surprises.  I don’t think “Straight” was that open nor would cults allow this.
Imagine if public schools did this how many kids would straighten up in their seats... "You can graduate in March instead of June if you get A's on your mid terms"!

And those therapists? They're not exactly "imported" by the parents. They work for the program or under some arrangement with the program. Depending on the facility, therapeutic services may or may not be a part of the package, but the therapists are almost never completely separate from the program's philosophy.

They may or may not agree with the programs philosophy but the main thing is that they are not employed by the program.  So the child sees and independent therapist who can communicate with the child's therapist at home.  I don’t think “straight” or any cults would operate this way.

I guess I really don't get just how you claim these places are "not cults anymore?"

Its really not too difficult, Ursus, but maybe you could find an employee who worked for EST or had an uncle who was in straight.  Then you could make the connection and call it a cult?

Yep! Let's not forget those unassailable "industry-sponsored" studies. Why muddy up parents' consciences with real and unbiased data on trauma when you can manufacture yer own! Why, with greater fine-tuning of the marketing paradigm, and experience in the art of the press release, I bet these programs can even find a way to assess success rates prior to enrollment!

Whoops, you forgot to mention  Independent studies with 3rd party oversight and approval... ouch.  Those studies really bother you that much?  You pine for the days when you could just say: "Show me a study which shows these programs to be effective!!"



...

[Anne Bonney]

The graduation dates can be flexible because each child is different.  I also agree with you that they can utilize this date to keep the kid in line, its probably a very effective tool.  The parents are told ahead of time to expect 12 to 14 months (which is rarely exceeded), so there are no surprises. I don’t think “Straight” was that open nor would cults allow this.[/i]

You're wrong.

They may or may not agree with the programs philosophy but the main thing is that they are not employed by the program.  So the child sees and independent therapist who can communicate with the child's therapist at home. I don’t think “straight” or any cults would operate this way.

You're wrong again.  They just find therapists who believe in the same 'tough love' bullshit as the programs do.

Its really not too difficult, Ursus, but maybe you could find an employee who worked for EST or had an uncle who was in straight.  Then you could make the connection and call it a cult?

Pretty much, yes.  Using EST-like or LGAT-like tactics on children is dangerous and very cult-like.

Whoops, you forgot to mention  Independent studies with 3rd party oversight and approval... ouch.  Those studies really bother you that much?  You pine for the days when you could just say: "Show me a study which shows these programs to be effective!!"

And those would be.......?  Citation please.  Which "studies" are you referring to?

[Troll Control]

DJ was staff at several programs and maybe his use of attack therapy is the reason he didn’t succeed there, I really don’t know...

Whooter, I knew you'd be back attention-whoring soon.  You can't help yourself.

Anyway, since you already admit you don't know what you're talking about (nothing new to the rest of use here), let me set you straight.  I never have and never would use attack therapy on a child or any other person.  The reason I didn't "succeed" (i.e. continuously and flagrantly abuse children in my care) at the facilities you promote is that I resigned and reported them for abusing children, defrauding parents and making false claims to insurance companies.  

As you already know quite well, I (and others) continued this pressure on HLA until they were forced to shut down and it was the only "parent choice" facility for which I ever worked, so I guess in your terms, "several" means "one." (as in "Whooter held several jobs for several years." lols)

Now maybe you can explain to us why you have never held a job for more than a year in your entire adult life?  Maybe explain your criminal record?  Or possibly explain why you have bragged about being a financial player in the TTI?   :beat:  :beat:  :beat:

I'll check back later for your self-flagellating response.  Looking forward to your answers to those very simple questions.  Cheers.

 DJ, sorry that my reference of you, on a previous post, upset you but no one forced you to work for programs and it is not like you started working there and left after a few days or spent your entire time in the break room.  You participated or they wouldn’t have paid you.  You lined your pockets for years with the industries money and when you asked for a raise they rejected you and you had to move on and worked for another program and the same thing happened (I don’t believe your hot temper helped the situation any).  Why not be honest, DJ, no matter how much you try you cannot erase your past.  It is also well documented here on fornits that you like to threaten people with punching them out (or cleaning their clock lol) when you lose an argument,  we can easily imagine how you reacted to the kids when they got up into your face.  Attacking people is part of your general make-up and there is no getting around that.

After you realized you had no future working in programs you decided to turn on them (you didn’t do this while you were working there, remember).  Its very common for ex-employees to turn on their industry after being tossed out, you don’t get any points for that.  If you had called the police or child services while being employed then you could claim you were trying to distance yourself from the program and help the children, but you didn’t, the industries money was more important to you until it ran out.

Sorry, DJ, just wanted to be clear.  No hard feelings, I am sure you are a good guy.



...

Another fact-free post from Whooter with zero "well-documented" facts.

...no matter how much you try you cannot erase your past...

So true, Whooter, just click those links in my signature to view your inescapable past supported by well-documented, self-stated claims.   :rofl:

[Whooter]

You're wrong.

Well then all those stories from kids who said they were kept in straight for years must have been lying then.  Its good to know that the kids knew when they would be graduating, it clears up a lot of mis information.

You're wrong again.

Well, again, all the others who went to straight and said they didn’t see any therapists were lying?  You guys had independent therapists who reported back to the childs therapist at home and the parents paid these professionals independently?  Why did you lie all those years and say you didn’t?  Interesting.

Pretty much, yes. Using EST-like or LGAT-like tactics on children is dangerous and very cult-like.

If they hired a person of the jewish faith it would mean the place would be considered Jewish?  What if they hired a jew and a catholic?  Lol

And those would be.......? Citation please. Which "studies" are you referring to?

 This ground breaking study was conducted by an independent research company and the results of this study were presented at the 114th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association - August 2006.

Between August 2003 and January 2006, Aspen Education Group participated in the nation's first large-scale study of its kind, measuring the effectiveness of Aspen's private residential programs for teens and their families. The study collected survey responses, both at program admission and then again at discharge, from 993 young people ages 13-18, enrolled in Aspen's residential programs. The study also collected responses from their parents or guardians. The following are highlights that might prove valuable in evaluating your decision to enroll your child in a private residential program.



One year after Graduation

3rd party oversight



...

[Anne Bonney]

You're wrong.

Well then all those stories from kids who said they were kept in straight for years must have been lying then.  Its good to know that the kids knew when they would be graduating, it clears up a lot of mis information.

No, the parents were told the program could be up to XXX amount of time (whatever the marks [parents] could bear at the time), while the kids were told that we were just signing in for a "2 week evaluation" and that we could leave any time after that if we desired.  Totally lying to us, but it got us to "sign ourselves in" so that they could claim we went in voluntarily.  Kinda like how you claim that kids can leave anytime even though they're out in the middle of nowhere, with no food/water and are cast out from their families if they leave.  Some choice.

Well, again, all the others who went to straight and said they didn’t see any therapists were lying?  You guys had independent therapists who reported back to the childs therapist at home and the parents paid these professionals independently?  Why did you lie all those years and say you didn’t?  Interesting.

Some had an "independent" M.D. (it was a former Straight parent with his connections to Straight covered up) tell our parents that we were drug addicts.  These "diagnosis" were done after about a 2 minute conversation with the child at Straight.  No, we didn't see any "therapist" on an on-going basis at all.  If I misread your initial post, I apologize.

If they hired a person of the jewish faith it would mean the place would be considered Jewish?  What if they hired a jew and a catholic?  Lol

you are the king of bad analogies.



 

This ground breaking study was conducted by an independent research company and the results of this study were presented at the 114th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association - August 2006.

Between August 2003 and January 2006, Aspen Education Group participated in the nation's first large-scale study of its kind, measuring the effectiveness of Aspen's private residential programs for teens and their families. The study collected survey responses, both at program admission and then again at discharge, from 993 young people ages 13-18, enrolled in Aspen's residential programs. The study also collected responses from their parents or guardians. The following are highlights that might prove valuable in evaluating your decision to enroll your child in a private residential program.



One year after Graduation

3rd party oversight

So, Aspen sponsored "studies" that are NOT longitudinal (which is essential in figuring this shit out).  Ok.

Now, do you have an independent, longitudinal studies or not?

[pelberglaw]

Dear the prior poster
   Can you provide a link to the actual study you are referring to rather than hyperlinks to summaries of the studies prepared by a business trying to use the study to increase their business.  Thanks

[Whooter]

No, the parents were told the program could be up to XXX amount of time (whatever the marks [parents] could bear at the time), while the kids were told that we were just signing in for a "2 week evaluation" and that we could leave any time after that if we desired. Totally lying to us, but it got us to "sign ourselves in" so that they could claim we went in voluntarily. Kinda like how you claim that kids can leave anytime even though they're out in the middle of nowhere, with no food/water and are cast out from their families if they leave. Some choice.

What we experienced is a 12 to 14 month stay and the child knew this up front as well as the parents.  

Some had an "independent" M.D. (it was a former Straight parent with his connections to Straight covered up) tell our parents that we were drug addicts. These "diagnosis" were done after about a 2 minute conversation with the child at Straight. No, we didn't see any "therapist" on an on-going basis at all. If I misread your initial post, I apologize.

That’s okay, the therapists that my daughter saw were quite good and communicated well with us as well as her therapist at home.  We received update letters monthly that were preapproved by my daughter prior to submittal, to protect her privacy.

you are the king of bad analogies.

Ha,Ha,Ha  I have been told that before.  But they do communicate well.

So, Aspen sponsored "studies" that are NOT longitudinal (which is essential in figuring this shit out). Ok.

Now, do you have an independent, longitudinal studies or not?

Finally we get you to admit that the studies exist!!  Yes they are independent !! Hooray!!  They were funded by Aspen and overseen by an independent agency to insure that there was no conflict of interest.  They have studies that run out one year.

So now we are looking for a study which covers out to say 5 years.  I haven’t seen one yet.  If you do let me know and I will post the link as soon as I see one.  If you find anyone who would like to fund the study I am sure Aspen would like to get one done for free!

If you want to hold out until they develop a 5 year study then that is fine and is your privilege.  We all have varying expectations and requirements.



...

[Anne Bonney]

you are the king of bad analogies.

Ha,Ha,Ha  I have been told that before.  But they do communicate well.

No.  No, they really don't.


Now, answer Phil's question please........

Dear the prior poster
Can you provide a link to the actual study you are referring to rather than hyperlinks to summaries of the studies prepared by a business trying to use the study to increase their business. Thanks