I was an uncontrollable asshole

[Ursus]

I did read the article but I didn't see any connection to programs.

The article did not specifically address programs per se. It addressed psychological trauma experienced during childhood. Many folk feel traumatized by their time in program, which took place, in most cases, during their childhood years (specifically up to age 18, according to the study). Why shouldn't this be applicable?

The article even gives readers the opportunity to assess their own ACE scores by virtue of a mini-test (the full ACE Study questionnaire was more than 200 questions). Interestingly enough, though no surprise to most of us, a substantial number of these questions can be answered in the affirmative ... specifically due to one's experience in program.

[Ursus]

What I don't understand is why when a child commits suicide a couple of years after a program people here attribute that to the program when there are certainly many other factors likely causes to consider.  Plus the fact that without a note none of us really know the cause of each spcific event.

I would peg the critical time period for suicide as being within the first several years post-program, since that is when, amongst other factors:

• one has more opportunity to reflect on what just happened to one's autonomy and self-identity in the preceding years,
• supervision is less and/or absent,
• impulsive behavior and ability to foresee consequences hasn't usu. matured yet, and
• the realization that program "tools" don't work in the real world sets in.

As to attribution of cause: I think you are stuck on proving or disproving specific cases. I don't think one can technically do that definitively without a shade of uncertainty, like you say, unless one is in that person's shoes or there is a note. Correlation of the event with program attendance, on the other hand, is a whole different ballgame.

[Anonymous]

I did read the article but I didn’t see any connection to programs.  Lets say a child had a traumatic experience in his or her life and also had parents who had been divorced.  This child would be at risk for a shorter life span according to the article.  Now lets say this same child was placed into a program.  How can we measure how much their risk is reduced or if they happened to be abused, how much their risk would increase?

Lets say that this same child committed suicide 2 years after graduation from a program.  Was this do to the program?  Was it due to home life trauma or none of the above?  Without the program would this child have committed suicide at an earlier age?  Did the program help or hurt this child?

What we do know is that kids commit suicide with or without programs.  What I don’t understand is why when a child commits suicide a couple of years after a program people here attribute that to the program when there are certainly many other factors likely causes to consider.  Plus the fact that without a note none of us really know the cause of each spcific event.

A wise man once said "A suicide is always the programs fault."

[Troll Control]

Once again, the discussion had nothing to do with "suicide."  What was stated is that Mike Reuben died of an overdose of heroin because, although ASR claims to offer addiction counseling, the program didn't help him with his addiction.  We now know that Aspen specifically denies offering any treatment of any kind, even though they advertise that they treat almost anything.

Why, after completing two Aspen programs that claim to treat drug abuse, was this kid still mainling dope?  The answer is because he received no actual treatment, as admitted by Aspen in a court of law.

It's obvious that no treatment would have been just as successful at least and maybe even more successful.  If he got bonafide drug treatment he would likely still be with us today.

[Whooter]

The article did not specifically address programs per se. It addressed psychological trauma experienced during childhood. Many folk feel traumatized by their time in program, which took place, in most cases, during their childhood years (specifically up to age 18, according to the study). Why shouldn't this be applicable?

If a child was traumatized in a program than this would apply, I agree.

As to attribution of cause: I think you are stuck on proving or disproving specific cases. I don't think one can technically do that definitively without a shade of uncertainty, like you say, unless one is in that person's shoes or there is a note. Correlation of the event with program attendance, on the other hand, is a whole different ballgame.

What do you mean by correlation with program attendance?  The Shapiro study indicated that within her population 4 kids attempted suicide prior to attending the program and those 4 kids had no attempts post program.  Would this be considered a correlation?  Do you consider that program attendance could reverse the effects of previous traumas that children suffered prior to attending the program?
I dont think the article covered this but it would be interesting to see if there were any reduction effect by program attendance.  There seems to be much focus on the negative effects here (which I understand based on the posters past) but we should also consider that the programs may help to reverse the negative effects of previous traumas.

[Ursus]

As to attribution of cause: I think you are stuck on proving or disproving specific cases. I don't think one can technically do that definitively without a shade of uncertainty, like you say, unless one is in that person's shoes or there is a note. Correlation of the event with program attendance, on the other hand, is a whole different ballgame.

What do you mean by correlation with program attendance?  The Shapiro study indicated that within her population 4 kids attempted suicide prior to attending the program and those 4 kids had no attempts post program.  Would this be considered a correlation?  Do you consider that program attendance could reverse the effects of previous traumas that children suffered prior to attending the program?
I dont think the article covered this but it would be interesting to see if there were any reduction effect by program attendance.  There seems to be much focus on the negative effects here (which I understand based on the posters past) but we should also consider that the programs may help to reverse the negative effects of previous traumas.

No, I would not consider it a correlation.

There were 30 families in the Shapiro "study." Only 17 kids from these 30 families bothered to even return their questionnaires. Even if you think that "parents would know" whether their kids attempted suicide or not,

• the incidence of suicide is far less than 1 in 30 kids nationwide, rendering the Shapiro "study" statistically irrelevant on this point, and
• very little time had elapsed since the kids were in program (I believe the mean was a little over a year), meaning none of them had passed that critical time period when suicides are most often attempted.

[Whooter]

So I guess we cannot attribute any suicides back to the programs unless the person left a note indicating cause and the kids who once attempted suicide (prior to entering a program) but since attending a program ceased this activity you feel more time is needed to make this a firm correlation.

So if I am reading you right you are saying there will always be those believers who feel the program caused the cessation of suicide attempts and those who feel the program increased this activity.  but to date there are no conclusive studies to support either side.

[Whooter]

the incidence of suicide is far less than 1 in 30 kids nationwide, rendering the Shapiro "study" statistically irrelevant on this point

I wasn’t speaking statistically.  I do agree the population was far too small to try to compare to any cross section of the general population, that was not my intent.  There were 4 kids (I believe 4) who were actively attempting suicide prior to the program and since completion of the program there have been zero attempts by these four students.  I understand this isnt conclusive across the board.  But it does show that the activity was arrested for these 4.  But I understand you would like to see no attempted suicide for longer periods than 12 months.

[Anonymous]

the incidence of suicide is far less than 1 in 30 kids nationwide, rendering the Shapiro "study" statistically irrelevant on this point, and

Irrelevant like most reports posted on this shitty website.

[Anonymous]

This thread wins for the most-amount-of-bullshit-to-happen-over-a-short-period-of-time award. Way to go, guys! Keep it up!

[Anonymous]

Who wants to join the KKK with me?

[Anonymous]

How much does it cost to join the KKK?