I was an uncontrollable asshole

[Troll Control]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.  They obviously were of no help whatsoever.  That's all anybody is saying.  Whooter keeps stressing tht kids who complete programs do much better and that programs have a "99.998% success rate."  But what's true is that even if kids complete multiple programs, like Mike did, the programs are of no benefit and are actually harmful (Aspen programs have been recently closed down for killing one boy and abusing and neglecting dozens of others).

Here's Whooters logic in a nutshell:  If the kid does well after a program, it was the program's success.  If the kid does poorrly (or kills himself like Mike did) then it's the kid's fault.  It's nonsense.  The bottom line is that many programs have been proven to be abusive and not a single one has ever been proven effective.

[Anonymous]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.

Yes, everyone knows that Detective Stabler.  Mike reminds me of Detective Stabler's daughter.

[Whooter]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.  They obviously were of no help whatsoever.  That's all anybody is saying.

Thank you!  Finally a person with reason. If you read here long enough you will see that many posters actually believe that the programs caused this boys death.  How could anyone possibly say this without evidence?  It could have been an ex girlfriend that he just broke up with, a fight with his father, his mothers death or an accidental over dose.  But there are so few program related deaths that many here on  fornits feel that on paper programs are safe and this isn’t something they are willing to believe.  So they  try so desperately to pin every possible death on a program which results in lost credibility.

[Anonymous]

The boy killed himself because of the mental distubances relentlessly inflicted on him.

Source? Autopsy results?  did he leave a note?

http://www.cafety.org/research/121-rese ... casualties

Thought reform Induced Psychopathologies
Reactive schizo affective-like psychoses. These occur in individuals with no prior history of mental disorder and from families free of such history, as well as in individuals with no prior history of mental disorder, but whose families have members with affective disorders.

These psychotic episodes vary in length from days to nearly a year's duration, with most ranging from 1 to 5 months. The decompensation typically occurs in immediate response to a peak stress-inducing experience. Strong affective components, mostly of a hypomanic or manic quality, are noted near and after the decompensation. These components appear related to the behavior modeled in the group and to attitudes advocated by the group. Certain programs appear to interact with personal histories and situational properties of the group to produce depressive reactions.

Postraumatic stress disorders. This type of disorder is described in section 309.89 of the DSM-III-R.

Atypical dissociative disorders. This type of disorder is described in section 300.15 of the DSM-III-R.

Relaxation-induced anxiety. This is a type of atypical anxiety if one uses DSM-III-R classification, but is best described in the recently growing reports appearing in research literature.

Miscellaneous reactions. These include anxiety combined with cognitive inefficiencies, such as difficulty in concentration, inability to focus and maintain attention, and impaired memory (especially short-term); self-mutilation; phobias; size=150]suicide[/size] and homicide; and psychological factors affecting physical conditions (described in section 316.00 of the DSM-III-R) such as strokes, myocardial infarctions, unexpected deaths, recurrence of peptic ulcers, asthma, etc.

John Reuben and Aspen Education Group caused or were causative factors in M Reuben's suicide because they subjected him to thought reform at Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness programs. Suicide is known to be one of the outcomes of thought reform.

Also inevitably, and relevant in this case,  a certain number of people will commit suicide if they are subjected to kidnap and multi month or year imprisonment without the opportunity for due process. Trauma and subjugation is disorienting, and spiritually and mentally damaging. Trauma and violation of this degree is also known to cause suicide.


This is obvious to decent people. Unfortunately for his sons, neither John D Reuben nor Aspen Education Group process even the tiniest drop of decency within them.

[Whooter]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.  They obviously were of no help whatsoever.  That's all anybody is saying.

Thank you!  Finally a person with reason. If you read here long enough you will see that many posters actually believe that the programs caused this boys death.  How could anyone possibly say this without evidence?  It could have been an ex girlfriend that he just broke up with, a fight with his father, his mothers death or an accidental over dose.  But there are so few program related deaths that many here on  fornits feel that on paper programs are safe and this isn’t something they are willing to believe.  So they  try so desperately to pin every possible death on a program which results in lost credibility.

I dont think they lose credibility as you put it.  But they do believe very strongly that programs are not good for people.

[Anonymous]

John Reuben and Aspen Education Group caused or were causative factors in M Reuben's suicide because they subjected him to thought reform at Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness programs. Suicide is known to be one of the outcomes of thought reform.

Translation:  Thought reform made him do it.

[Anonymous]

Translation:  The Who forced him to do it.   :roflmao:

[Anonymous]

John Reuben and Aspen Education Group caused or were causative factors in M Reuben's suicide because they subjected him to thought reform at Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness programs. Suicide is known to be one of the outcomes of thought reform.

There is an insanity defense and now there is the "thought reform defense."

[Froderik]

John Reuben and Aspen Education Group caused or were causative factors in M Reuben's suicide because they subjected him to thought reform at Academy at Swift River and SUWS Wilderness programs. Suicide is known to be one of the outcomes of thought reform.

There is an insanity defense and now there is the "thought reform defense."

No "defense," just a trend worth some examination.

[Whooter]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.  They obviously were of no help whatsoever.  That's all anybody is saying.

Thank you!  Finally a person with reason. If you read here long enough you will see that many posters actually believe that the programs caused this boys death.  How could anyone possibly say this without evidence?  It could have been an ex girlfriend that he just broke up with, a fight with his father, his mothers death or an accidental over dose.  But there are so few program related deaths that many here on  fornits feel that on paper programs are safe and this isn’t something they are willing to believe.  So they  try so desperately to pin every possible death on a program which results in lost credibility.

Another way to look at it is lets say a person has a heart transplant and 2 years later that person commits suicide. Should we then conclude that the transplant was a failure since the patient is dead after 2 years?

[Froderik]

Mike Reuben died of an overdose after COMPLETING TWO Aspen programs.  They obviously were of no help whatsoever.  That's all anybody is saying.

Thank you!  Finally a person with reason. If you read here long enough you will see that many posters actually believe that the programs caused this boys death.  How could anyone possibly say this without evidence?  It could have been an ex girlfriend that he just broke up with, a fight with his father, his mothers death or an accidental over dose.  But there are so few program related deaths that many here on  fornits feel that on paper programs are safe and this isn’t something they are willing to believe.  So they  try so desperately to pin every possible death on a program which results in lost credibility.

Another way to look at it is lets say a person has a heart transplant and 2 years later that person commits suicide. Should we then conclude that the transplant was a failure since the patient is dead after 2 years?

Bad analogy; a heart transplant has no potential (it is a mere physical adjustment, so to speak) to cause a person to off themselves, whereas the psychological effects of being in a program could have everything to do with causing a person to off themselves. That was a terribly weak analogy.

[Whooter]

The psychological effects could work either way.  Some could push a person more towards suicide and others further away.  Just like the heart patient we dont know what effects occurred unless we took 1,000 people who had heart transplants and 1,000 who didnt and see if there is a difference in populations.

since we know kids commit suicide regardless of whether they go to a program or not the only way to know for sure if the program caused it was if they left a note.  Another approach would be a controlled study of a 1,000 kids who were denied the help of a program compared to 1,000 kids who attended a program and look for trends to see if one group has a higher rate than the other.  But even then we wouldnt know the cause of the individual suicides because they occur in each group (unless, again, the person left a note).

[Froderik]

The analogy doesn't hold water. I don't know how many kids kill themselves as a result of being in programs, but it certainly doesn't surprise me that it would happen...that it would happen as a direct result of being brainwashed, removed from society, abused, etc. etc.

Sorry, but it just makes sense....

[Ursus]

The psychological effects could work either way.  Some could push a person more towards suicide and others further away.

Maybe, maybe not. Are you willing to take that chance?

Mercury used to be the cure of choice for syphilis. Doctors know better now.

since we know kids commit suicide regardless of whether they go to a program or not the only way to know for sure if the program caused it was if they left a note.  Another approach would be a controlled study of a 1,000 kids who were denied the help of a program compared to 1,000 kids who attended a program and look for trends to see if one group has a higher rate than the other.  But even then we wouldnt know the cause of the individual suicides because they occur in each group (unless, again, the person left a note).

A study that addresses that issue in part made the news recently. See thread titled Traumatic childhood takes 20 years off life expectancy. In fact, you posted pretty much the same argument there as well, having clearly not read the article too carefully.

The message is clear: trauma experienced during one's childhood, which includes trauma experienced in programs, shortens one's lifespan.

This study, published recently in the Lawrence World Journal, does not even address obvious physical damage, including deaths, brought about by restraints or wilderness fiascoes. Just psychological trauma. Specifically: one's one assessment of such.

[Whooter]

I did read the article but I didn’t see any connection to programs.  Lets say a child had a traumatic experience in his or her life and also had parents who had been divorced.  This child would be at risk for a shorter life span according to the article.  Now lets say this same child was placed into a program.  How can we measure how much their risk is reduced or if they happened to be abused, how much their risk would increase?

Lets say that this same child committed suicide 2 years after graduation from a program.  Was this do to the program?  Was it due to home life trauma or none of the above?  Without the program would this child have committed suicide at an earlier age?  Did the program help or hurt this child?

What we do know is that kids commit suicide with or without programs.  What I don’t understand is why when a child commits suicide a couple of years after a program people here attribute that to the program when there are certainly many other factors likely causes to consider.  Plus the fact that without a note none of us really know the cause of each spcific event.