aparently, adults want to go to programs too

[Ursus]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.

So... am I correct in understanding you to say ... that all this which went down in James "Death" Ray's sweating bonanza ... was all pretty much par for the course?

[DannyB II]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.

So... am I correct in understanding you to say ... that all this which went down in James "Death" Ray's sweating bonanza ... was all pretty much par for the course?

Well now, I don't know if I would use your exact words. How about something similar to what I said yesterday. People have died from complications brought on by saunas and sweat lodges.
Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.
Why are you personally attached to this particular article, did something happen to you at a sweat lodge, you are not revealing here. Weird things can happen in there.
I am of the same opinion as you that these deaths are tragic. James fleeing the scene does not help either but if you know anything about law, you know that was a calculated move directed by his lawyer.

[Ursus]

Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.

Somehow, I have grave doubts about your figure. Lol. This is supposed to be a spiritual ceremony, eh? Not some activity you churn out as many times as you can drum up enough participants for. Besides, Ray hasn't been doing it all that long.

And... apparently, he had some of his own ideas which superseded the advice of American Indian elders. From Green582's comment above (June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT); these are three quotes taken from one of the police interviews, colored emphasis added:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"

"Okay so the sweat lodge, he borrows from everybody and that actually has been part of his brilliance in my opinion is that he had the ability to take material from all kinds of different sources and synthesize it together and deliver it in a very understandable way. So he would borrow from the Native American tradition, he borrowed from the Hawaiian traditions, he borrowed from the South American natives, and has read extensively and like weaves all this stuff together. So when you are doing the stuff in Arizona, you are of course heavily on the Native American side of things and you are experiencing the energy of Sedona which is why people go there and the red rocks, and okay now we are going to do a sweat lodge...."

"I do remember the first time we did it, he said, he called around to try to find somebody who would facilitate this, host it and facilitate it. He couldn't find anybody who was willing to do it, because he called some Native American places I guess that do this. And they said well how many stones or how many rounds did you want to do and I forget how many he said, but whatever his number was, they said no, white people can't do that. And he thought that was really funny then he said, well you don't know my white people, but yeah exactly you don't know my white people is what he said. So he took over and did it himself and found Angel Valley who was willing to let him do that, I guess."[/list]

It's almost as if James Ray set out to prove that his followers could do anything the Native Americans could do, and more.

[DannyB II]

Ursus, I think if you go back in James Ray's, "Sweat Lodge" history, I believe this is the first time folks have died. How many sweats has he guided in his lifetime, literally thousands.

Somehow, I have grave doubts about your figure. Lol. This is supposed to be a spiritual ceremony, eh? Not some activity you churn out as many times as you can drum up enough participants for. Besides, Ray hasn't been doing it all that long.

This is true, I wrote my response wrong. I meant he has had thousands go through his sweat lodge experience.
Spritual ceremony, it definitely has the potential but it is up to the participants. James can only guide and witness their  spiritual experience.

And... apparently, he had some of his own ideas which superseded the advice of American Indian elders. From Green582's comment above (June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT); these are three quotes taken from one of the police interviews, colored emphasis added:

There is no doubt he allowed for himself to venture out of the, "Native American" sweat experience.

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"

"Okay so the sweat lodge, he borrows from everybody and that actually has been part of his brilliance in my opinion is that he had the ability to take material from all kinds of different sources and synthesize it together and deliver it in a very understandable way. So he would borrow from the Native American tradition, he borrowed from the Hawaiian traditions, he borrowed from the South American natives, and has read extensively and like weaves all this stuff together. So when you are doing the stuff in Arizona, you are of course heavily on the Native American side of things and you are experiencing the energy of Sedona which is why people go there and the red rocks, and okay now we are going to do a sweat lodge...."

"I do remember the first time we did it, he said, he called around to try to find somebody who would facilitate this, host it and facilitate it. He couldn't find anybody who was willing to do it, because he called some Native American places I guess that do this. And they said well how many stones or how many rounds did you want to do and I forget how many he said, but whatever his number was, they said no, white people can't do that. And he thought that was really funny then he said, well you don't know my white people, but yeah exactly you don't know my white people is what he said. So he took over and did it himself and found Angel Valley who was willing to let him do that, I guess."[/list]

It's almost as if James Ray set out to prove that his followers could do anything the Native Americans could do, and more.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

their spiritual experience

Well, they're definitely having a "spiritual experience" now, aren't they?

[DannyB II]

their spiritual experience

Well, they're definitely having a "spiritual experience" now, aren't they?

Why are you hell bent on being as disgusting and ill-tempered as you can be.

[DannyB11]

My apologies Pile, my other personality was rude to you and I was wrong. I think we can all get along here so long as you all play by my rules. My cult is growing and with it my powerlessness. I recruited several new members from the gutter behind the AA meeting last night. I have rendered them as powerless as myself. They shall serve me in the afterlife.
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny

[Ursus]

Two different understandings of the "spiritual chant" James Ray had his followers do whilst in the sweat lodge; from this set of comments, color emphasis added:


James Ray follower, probably not Native American:

• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT

A woman in one of the police interviews has some interesting things to say about the Giant Plastic Death Tent:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called

Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"[/list][/list]

Native American, and not a James Ray follower:

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT

PS His chant appears to be a variation of

hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE![/list][/list]

[DannyB II]

Two different understandings of the "spiritual chant" James Ray had his followers do whilst in the sweat lodge; from this set of comments, color emphasis added:


James Ray follower, probably not Native American:

• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT

A woman in one of the police interviews has some interesting things to say about the Giant Plastic Death Tent:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called

Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"[/list][/list]

Native American, and not a James Ray follower:

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT

PS His chant appears to be a variation of

hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE![/list][/list]

I agree, there will be a time when, "IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE", for everyone.

[Anne Bonney]

Oh FFS......this is nothing more than newage bullshit, run by a guy with a guru complex.  People like this are called Malignant Narcissists and have a deep need to be 'adored' and the "goto guy".

Malignant Narcissism:

http://narcissistic-personality.suite10 ... narcissism

Traits of Malignant Narcissism
Behavioral Pathology beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
Aug 27, 2007 Tami Port

 What is Malignant Narcissism? - public domain copywrt exp wikimediaMost of us have narcissistic traits, and a certain degree of self-interest is healthy. But at what point does self-absorption become pathological narcissism?
   
The term narcissism is derived from the Greek myth of Narcissus, a handsome youth who became obsessed with himself, falling in love with his own reflection. Some degree of narcissism is considered normal; however, when narcissistic traits are so predominant that they significantly impair an individual’s social functioning, this merits a psychological diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Yet, the spectrum of narcissistic behavior can extend far beyond NPD to include even more serious forms of self-obsession including malignant narcissism and psychopathy (Kernberg 2003, 2004).

What is Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
The DSM-IV-TR, a manual that psychologists use to diagnose NPD and other mental disorders, explains that NPD is a type of psychological personality disorder characterized by grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy. Narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity, but the pathologically narcissistic tend primarily be men (75%) who are extremely self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ perspectives, insensitive to others’ needs and indifferent to the effect of their own egocentric behavior. NPD is one of a cluster of loosely-related personality disorders (Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD), all based on dramatic, emotional or erratic behavior.
Diagnostic Overlap of Cluster B Disorders
Considerable overlap between the characteristics of different personality disorders can make diagnosis of NPD challenging. Grandiosity, lack of empathy and exploitative interpersonal relations are not unique to NPD, nor is the need to be seen as special or unique. The differential diagnosis of NPD is typically made based on the absence of certain behaviors.


Borderline Personality Concerned a loved one has it? 8 minute video. Non-profit. http://www.bpdfamily.com
Narcissistic Personality Traits Search multiple engines for narcissistic personality traits http://www.webcrawler.com
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) has several conspicuous similarities, but unlike NPD is characterized by self-injury, whereas narcissists are rarely physically self-injurious. The need for constant attention is also found in Histrionic Personality Disorder, but HPD and BPD are both relationship oriented, whereas NPD is characterized by avoidance of intimacy. Psychopathy, or Antisocial Personality Disorder, is differentiated from NPD by psychopaths' willingness to use physical violence, whereas narcissists rarely commit crimes (Vaknin, 1999-2007).

How Is Malignant Narcissism Different from NPD?
Otto Kernberg MD, a legendary thought leader in the study of personality disorders, originated the term "malignant narcissism" to describe a syndrome of narcissism that went beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Malignant narcissism is like NPD on pathological steroids, manifesting additional antisocial features, paranoid traits, and ego-syntonic aggression. Kernberg believed that malignant narcissism was part of a spectrum of narcissistic behavior; ranging from NPD, at the low end, to malignant narcissism, and with psychopathy representing the high end of narcissistic severity.

Spectrum of Narcissism
Psychopaths can almost be thought of as emotionally disabled in that they appear to experience a very limited range of emotion. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are normally part of the human experience.

Kernberg differentiated psychopathy from malignant narcissism based on his assessment that psychopaths are so resistant to external influences that they are unlikely to internalize even the values of the "aggressor." Psychopaths are unable to emotionally identify with others. In contrast, he believed narcissists to have the capacity to identify with and admire powerful people, “which permits at least some loyalty and good object relations to be internalized." However, all three levels of narcissistic behavior pathology share the common threads of extreme self-absorption and insensitivity that often result in a trail of victims--emotional wreckage left in the narcissist’s wake (Kernberg 2003, 2004).

Read on
Assessing Narcissistic Personality
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnosis
Narcissistic Personality Disorder NPD
More Information on Narcissism

There are numerous on-line and in print resources with additional information on narcissism and personality disorders in general, including: Psychology Prof Online, The Mayo Clinic: Mental Health Center and the article Personality Disorders: Brief Summary of the Ten Disorders of Personality.

This article is a summary of narcissistic traits and disorders. The contents of this article are not meant to be a substitute for professional help and counseling.

Additional Narcissism Resources
Kernberg, Otto (2004) Aggressivity, Narcissism, and Self-Destructiveness in the Psychotherapeutic Relationship: New Developments in the Psychopathology and Psychotherapy of Severe Personality Disorders.

Kernberg, Otto and Akhtar, Salman. (2003) Broken Structures: Severe Personality Disorders and Their Treatment.

Vaknin, S (1999-2007). Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited.

Wikipedia: Narcissism and Malignant Narcissism

American Psychiatric Association APA (2000) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR)



Read more at Suite101: Traits of Malignant Narcissism: Behavioral Pathology beyond Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) http://narcissistic-personality.suite10 ... z0vkp1yVvJ

[Ursus]

I think a lot of the older program founders and similar movers and shakers (before this industry got populated by large companies like Aspen Ed) *do* qualify as being on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder spectrum...  

[justonemore]

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

[DannyB II]

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.

[Ursus]

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.

Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?

[DannyB II]

Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.

WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.

Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?

Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.