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Offline Ursus

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No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2010, 05:25:22 PM »
Some more details of the previous days' events are noted in this next Daily Courier article:

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The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths


Lt. David Rhodes of the criminal investigation bureau of the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office speaks to the media during a press conference Saturday at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott. Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh, at left, also provided information.
Lisa Irish/The Daily Courier



Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center, near Sedona. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat.
Tom Tingle/The Arizona Republic, AP


By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh identified two people who died after participating in a sweat lodge ceremony that was the culmination of a "Spiritual Warrior" conference run by James Arthur Ray at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on Sedona Thursday.

James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died at Verde Valley Medical Center at 6:36 p.m. Thursday, Waugh said at a Saturday press conference at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott.

More than 20 participants were transported by ambulance, air and private vehicles for care at the Verde Valley Medical Center, Flagstaff Medical Center and the Sedona Medical Center. Three patients remain in fair condition and one is in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said Starla Addair-Collins, public relations specialist at Flagstaff Medical Center.

"Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."

The sweat lodge ceremony Thursday afternoon was the culmination of a four-day retreat in the Sedona area, Waugh said. Ray had hosted events at the resort, including sweat lodges, before, and investigators are following up to see if any similar incidents had happened at previous events. Rhodes said the owners of the resort, the participants and Ray's staff on site are all part of the investigation.

"We are investigating it, at this point in time, as a death investigation," Waugh said. "If there are items that we are looking at that will turn this into a criminal investigation, I will not share it at this time."

A 911 call at 5 p.m. Thursday reported two people at the sweat dome had no pulse. When YCSO officers responded at 5:42 p.m., they found people in medical distress, complaining of illness, and two who were unresponsive and in critical condition.

Investigators interviewed 65 people of the 71 on site from the time they arrived until 3 a.m. Friday. Seven people were paid staff, including Ray, seven were volunteers, and 50 people were paying participants, Waugh said.

"We continue monitoring the condition of participants," Waugh said.

"We believe 50 to 60 people were in the lodge at the time that these deaths occurred," Waugh said.

Spiritual Warrior program participants attended lectures from Sunday to Tuesday, Waugh said. At 10 p.m. Tuesday, participants began a vision quest in surrounding canyons. The vision quest was a 36-hour period of fasting and spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Thursday morning, vision quest ended at daybreak and participants ate a buffet breakfast of eggs, fruit and cereal. Waugh said. Participants were also encouraged to drink water, he said. From midmorning until 3 p.m., participants attended lectures and seminars.

At 3 p.m., participants began the sweat lodge ceremony, with each sweat lodge session lasting from 15 to 30 minutes. Some participants said the original plan was for eight sweat lodge experiences, Waugh said.

In one round, Ray led the participants in various spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Many of the participants were from out of state, and one is from Canada, Rhodes said.

According to investigators, the first round began when 12 cantaloupe-sized rocks were brought into the lodge, water was put on the rocks to create steam and sandalwood was thrown on the rocks to give the effect of incense. At the end of each round, the door flap was raised and new rocks were brought in. Investigators found 58 rocks in the pit when they arrived at the lodge.

After the fourth round, two participants were dragged to the door by people in the lodge, Waugh said.

Ray's staff built the lodge, a temporary structure, with a frame of juniper and oak and covered it with many layers of blankets, comforters and tarps. The lodge is 415 square feet, just 53 inches high in the center, and 30 inches high on the edges. Fifty to 60 people were in the lodge during the ceremony, Waugh said.

"So literally no one could stand up in the lodge," Waugh said.

"We're estimating 50 to 65 people in an area 415 square feet - that is very tight quarters," Rhodes said. "The only ventilation was the door, the one entrance, when it was open."

Autopsies were conducted by the medical examiner of Yavapai County on Friday and results and toxicology are pending. Waugh said determining the actual cause of death may take up to 10 days.

Samples were taken from the fabric covering the roof, firewood, and other items inside and around the lodge to aid in the investigation.

Shore is survived by his wife and three children, a brother in Chicago, and other family members. Brown is survived by her parents, Waugh said.


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2010, 05:43:45 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Some more details of the previous days' events are noted in this next Daily Courier article:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

 The Daily Courier
 10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths and "Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Danny wrote
Made some necessary corrections to the headline of this post, so we would have a more balanced headline.



Lt. David Rhodes of the criminal investigation bureau of the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office speaks to the media during a press conference Saturday at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott. Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh, at left, also provided information.
Lisa Irish/The Daily Courier



Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center, near Sedona. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat.
Tom Tingle/The Arizona Republic, AP


By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh identified two people who died after participating in a sweat lodge ceremony that was the culmination of a "Spiritual Warrior" conference run by James Arthur Ray at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on Sedona Thursday.

James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died at Verde Valley Medical Center at 6:36 p.m. Thursday, Waugh said at a Saturday press conference at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors Room in Prescott.

More than 20 participants were transported by ambulance, air and private vehicles for care at the Verde Valley Medical Center, Flagstaff Medical Center and the Sedona Medical Center. Three patients remain in fair condition and one is in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said Starla Addair-Collins, public relations specialist at Flagstaff Medical Center.

"Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."

Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

"We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

"I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."

The sweat lodge ceremony Thursday afternoon was the culmination of a four-day retreat in the Sedona area, Waugh said. Ray had hosted events at the resort, including sweat lodges, before, and investigators are following up to see if any similar incidents had happened at previous events. Rhodes said the owners of the resort, the participants and Ray's staff on site are all part of the investigation.

"We are investigating it, at this point in time, as a death investigation," Waugh said. "If there are items that we are looking at that will turn this into a criminal investigation, I will not share it at this time."

A 911 call at 5 p.m. Thursday reported two people at the sweat dome had no pulse. When YCSO officers responded at 5:42 p.m., they found people in medical distress, complaining of illness, and two who were unresponsive and in critical condition.

Investigators interviewed 65 people of the 71 on site from the time they arrived until 3 a.m. Friday. Seven people were paid staff, including Ray, seven were volunteers, and 50 people were paying participants, Waugh said.

"We continue monitoring the condition of participants," Waugh said.

"We believe 50 to 60 people were in the lodge at the time that these deaths occurred," Waugh said.

Spiritual Warrior program participants attended lectures from Sunday to Tuesday, Waugh said. At 10 p.m. Tuesday, participants began a vision quest in surrounding canyons. The vision quest was a 36-hour period of fasting and spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Thursday morning, vision quest ended at daybreak and participants ate a buffet breakfast of eggs, fruit and cereal. Waugh said. Participants were also encouraged to drink water, he said. From midmorning until 3 p.m., participants attended lectures and seminars.

At 3 p.m., participants began the sweat lodge ceremony, with each sweat lodge session lasting from 15 to 30 minutes. Some participants said the original plan was for eight sweat lodge experiences, Waugh said.

In one round, Ray led the participants in various spiritual exercises, Waugh said. Many of the participants were from out of state, and one is from Canada, Rhodes said.

According to investigators, the first round began when 12 cantaloupe-sized rocks were brought into the lodge, water was put on the rocks to create steam and sandalwood was thrown on the rocks to give the effect of incense. At the end of each round, the door flap was raised and new rocks were brought in. Investigators found 58 rocks in the pit when they arrived at the lodge.

After the fourth round, two participants were dragged to the door by people in the lodge, Waugh said.

Ray's staff built the lodge, a temporary structure, with a frame of juniper and oak and covered it with many layers of blankets, comforters and tarps. The lodge is 415 square feet, just 53 inches high in the center, and 30 inches high on the edges. Fifty to 60 people were in the lodge during the ceremony, Waugh said.

"So literally no one could stand up in the lodge," Waugh said.

"We're estimating 50 to 65 people in an area 415 square feet - that is very tight quarters," Rhodes said. "The only ventilation was the door, the one entrance, when it was open."

Autopsies were conducted by the medical examiner of Yavapai County on Friday and results and toxicology are pending. Waugh said determining the actual cause of death may take up to 10 days.

Samples were taken from the fabric covering the roof, firewood, and other items inside and around the lodge to aid in the investigation.

Shore is survived by his wife and three children, a brother in Chicago, and other family members. Brown is survived by her parents, Waugh said.


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2010, 11:00:45 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
The Daily Courier
10/10/2009 1:25:00 PM
No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths and "Right now there are no criminal charges pending, and we do not know at this point if there ever will be," Lt. David Rhodes of the YCSO criminal investigation bureau said at the press conference. "We haven't encountered anything like this before."
Danny wrote
Made some necessary corrections to the headline of this post, so we would have a more balanced headline.
Ya really think so?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2010, 11:10:21 AM »
I couldn't even see that he changed anything.  Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts.  Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Ursus

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2010, 11:21:03 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I couldn't even see that he changed anything.  Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts.  Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.
He took a couple of sentences from the text that there were no criminal charges pending, and that they didn't know if there ever would be any, and inserted that into the article's headline. Does Danny believe that James Ray shouldn't be held the least bit responsible in any way, shape, or form?

James Ray, fwiw, wasn't around anyway. He hightailed it back to California:

    Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

    "We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

    "I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline Ursus

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    Comments for: "No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths"
    « Reply #50 on: June 26, 2010, 10:23:26 AM »
    Comments left for the above article, "No charges yet in sweat lodge deaths" (by Lisa Irish, 10/10/2009, The Daily Courier):


    Article comment by: Lorena Bathey · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      I attended this event a few years ago. To attend I paid over $7000 and expected to find a way to further my spiritual growth. However, I was hugely disappointed ... From the first night where James Ray was pushing people to shave their heads...yes I said shave their heads I was concerned about the control factor, however, I stayed to see what I was there to learn. ... I informed them at my disgust ... I never heard from James Ray or their office again regarding this complete farce of a spiritual event. ... He should be held completely accountable for playacting at an ancient Native American tradition as the sweat lodge. I am glad I left early from this event, who knows what could have happened.

    (Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
    Article comment by: Chuck Cooper · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      Thanks for the heads-up. Here's the latest. The fatalities are not Ed and Elena. But I do not know whether they were at that location or whether they were among the injured.
    Article comment by: Cuauhtemoc · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      James Arthur Ray is responsible for the deaths and injuries sustained by those poor folks. ... Our sweat lodge ceremonies were not made for people like Ray to use for his "Warrior" seminars. ... And other people need to quit making a profit on what the Creator gave to the native people!!

    (Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
    Article comment by: So Sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      James Ray ran to California to get his attorney. Why did he not stay and do some comforting to the people? Something is not right. I really feel sorry for the people that passed and the ones that are still ill. The American Indians are the only ones that know the proper way of the sweat lodge and they don't charge $10K. I hope everyone of these people get their money back.
    Article comment by: The herd instinct · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      Probably not a criminal matter, said Lt. Rhodes ... so one must assume that you cannot criminalize utter stupidity in human beings.
    Article comment by: Ivan · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      This is very unfortunate tragedy. Goes to show that not just any Joe blow can conduct a sweat lodge ceremony. These native ways are carefully taken care of for a reason. ...

    (Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
    Article comment by: sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
      That lodge was not done correctly . I guess he just made up his own version of how one should be done . While these types of lodges are in all cultures , there are similarities and safety and protocols through out the history of them as well . From my point of view these were not followed by this person who ran this thing.
    Article comment by: Deepest sympathy · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      The loss of lives is very sad indeed. And I agree, this type of activity should not be undertaken by those that do not understand all the necessary precautions that should be taken. With that said, I still do not blame Ray for not wanting to be interviewed by local LEOs without his attorney present. Anyone who does in this type of investigation is a fool. (God bless America and God bless the 5th Amendment!) Waugh know this, so I'm somewhat perplexed by his statement declaring he didn't know why Ray didn't want to talk to them. Give me a break. The other individuals interviewed were not necessarily liable for the lodge and the accident. And anyone who has lived in Yavapai County who has a lick of common sense knows YCSO does not play fair. Once again, sorry to hear about the losses and my heart goes out to their family and friends. I wish a speedy recovery to those that are still in the hospital.
    Article comment by: Old Gringo · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information. Okay, at $9,695.00 a head times 50 paying customers, he made $484,750.00. That may have some thing to do with it when you think about all the pending lawsuits ! What qualifies this (man) to even pretend to understand the Warrior Way ? If you want to understand the Native American experience, go do some volunteer work on one of the reservations, and leave their sacred ceremonies alone.
    Article comment by: Dr. Hollis · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      I know James Ray's work and have attended several of his other conferences. James is a tracker of personal power and seeks to understand and share with his attendees all of the global cultural practices, concepts and philosophies that enhance personal power. With all due respect to the Native American commentator, the sweat lodge was just one of the many ceremonies and philosophies he has studied. I dare say James has probably studied it more than and understands it in even more depth and more intently than the commentator. The sweat lodge is just one part of the conference, albeit a potentially dangerous part of the conference. One critical problem seems to have been medical judgment and the lack of emergency preparedness. For the past 7 years James has had 50 people do the same event without loss of life. ... This kind of event should've demanded a higher level practitioner i.e. Physician Assistant, Nurse practitioner or Physician who could've acted more aggressively to prevent loss of life. There should've been on site: #1-Supplemental Oxygen available (38-40 y.o. healthy people succumbed to carbon DIOXIDE excess and hypoxia -(low available O2) from the shear number of people breathing in and out in the closed space as well as heat exhaustion due to the elevated temperature. As well the altitude should've required O2 availability to prevent altitude sickness after the hike. #2 IV Fluid availability. This is the treatment for dehydration from profuse sweating and heat exhaustion. #3 There should've been a Portable External Defibrillator available for such a time as this. Every second is critical when a person is in full arrest. This was a tragic event, but better medical preparedness would've prevented loss of life.
    Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      Life is dangerous. These people made a choice to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, believing that the benefits outweighed the risks. Enough said.
    Article comment by: just courious · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      I'm sure that Mr. Ray went to the Yavapai County Building Dept. with plans and obtained permits to build this temporary structure, and then have the county inspect the structure before it could be occupied. I'm also sure that the then posted occupancy load was not exceeded for monetary purposes(yeah right!). This sort of thing happens when individuals ignore building, health, and fire codes.
    Article comment by: PETE · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      The deaths do not make sense ( two "healthy") people, I wonder what all they put on those heated rocks besides water , or in the water itself or if the plastic melting from the steam gave off something toxic ? It as if something created a allergic reaction or induced a respiratory failure , aside from the fact that this "lodge" was done completely wrong from my understanding of how they are done traditionally. I am glad the YCSO is looking into this.
    Article comment by: earth school · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      May the blessings of the spirit be upon those who have suffered. May the light of love shine on all who were involved, and may each person find themselves stronger because of these sad circumstances. Any time there is a ceremony involved it is powerful. Whether or not the person leading the ceremony knows all the ramifications of the ceremony depends on how much time they have spent learning. Always research the person you want to learn from, and then take the ceremony or skill back to nature and test it thoroughly in every way. Always make sure that your intent is pure, and not self serving in any way. Please don't let this tragedy distract you from learning and seeking a more pure spiritual life.
    Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      Native American Ceremonies are sacred events from the creator and should only be led by natives or those who have been given rights by the native people. True ceremony does not include a price tag! Unfortunately this appears to be another example of white mans greed. Each time I crawl I give myself to the creator with no expectations and receive huge spiritual benefits to share with all people.
    Article comment by: Money Does Not Buy Happiness · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
      I truly feel sorry for the two who passed away (and their families) along with all the others who were harmed; don't let my 'name' fool you to thinking otherwise. That said, it is still beyond me how people think they can buy their way to some greater understanding of life, or a greater appreciation of life, over just plain common sense and living and learning as you go along. Whatever happened to "I make my choices and live with the consequences?"
    Article comment by: Old Gringo · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009
      Dr Hollis speak with forked tongue ! In what universe would some phony-baloney self help guru be "more qualified and better understand the ceremony" than the People ?
    Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009
      I am in agreement with many who have commented on this unfortunate event especially with Dr. Hollis. I have participated in the vision quest, and sweat lodge ceremony. I am also a sundancer, yet in 20 plus years money has not exchanged hands for the honor "the people" have so graciously bestowed by accepting me as family. James Ray has dishonored his family and the ways of his people and I suspect there are those in his community who are deeply ashamed of his choices and at the same time are grateful for the gas that fuels their cars, the food they eat, cloths for the children, and more. As the Gringo said maybe go to the reservation of your choice and do some work for the community, a greater understanding could be yours.
    Article comment by: Disgust · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009
      In the 20 yrs I have attended Native American ceremonies / sweat lodges run by Native Americans I have never heard of such a thing as what was done in Sedona . Never was anyone ever taken to a hospital . Reading the comment on page two of this says a lot . A woman who participated in one of James Ray Arthur's bogus ceremonies felt ripped off and his office refused to contact her and taking her $7,000 pretty much says it all . She is alive to say it ! This guy should be stopped . I hope the civil suits pile up as high as his ego . For Dr Hollis' defense of such a practice as what went on in sedona is abominable. To say that it was merely a lack of trained medical professionals is ludicrous . What they did in sedona was not in any way related to native american sweat lodge or ceremony.
    Article comment by: Dont drink the kool aid · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009
      Jonestown had a guy like him.
    Article comment by: Rancher up north · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009
      Call me "old age" rather than "New Age" if you like, but in my eyes, this looks like a bastardization of what is traditionally a freely-given, purposefully small, sacred ceremony.
    Article comment by: W to the · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009
      I feel for the families of the people who lost their lives. If Mr. Ray "studied" the ceremony he missed the part about not having 50 people in it for 2 hours. Having been in several sweat lodges (and being Native American) I have never heard of such. It doesn't cost 9-10 grand, and emergency staff was never warranted or needed. Hopefully, people will leave Native traditions alone.
    Article comment by: Ismira · Posted: Saturday, October 17, 2009
      Even though sweatlodges or related things have been a custum other than NDN traditions ,it is quite obviously that the Native American people do have the best knowledge of how to perform such rituals .It would be much better and safer to attend sweatlodges conducted by Native Americans than by new age WannabeS . It would also help and promte a deeper understanding of the Native People in the USA and their culture and to give generous donation to poor reservations.

    (Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement)

    Just calculate how much money he will get out of it ... Do you really think you can buy spiritual growth ??? with $$$$$$ the more you pay the more you get???[/list]
    Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009
      As pathetic as James Ray is, and as much as i would love to see him pay through the civil and criminal process, it is scary to know that people would actually pay someone $9695 for this nonsense.Wake up.He is a snake oil salesman, he needs to be stopped!


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    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
    « Reply #51 on: June 26, 2010, 06:29:38 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    I couldn't even see that he changed anything.  Then again, I have difficulty reading his posts.  Especially when he quotes (or attempts to quote) somebody else.
    He took a couple of sentences from the text that there were no criminal charges pending, and that they didn't know if there ever would be any, and inserted that into the article's headline.


    Does Danny believe that James Ray shouldn't be held the least bit responsible in any way, shape, or form?


    No I don't obviously, Ursus. I'm just not sure what responsibility to lay at his feet.
    I have read Anne and your opinion's, I agree there was malfeasance but what. I am acting naive on purpose because I just don't have enough info. The Police report said, James was not talking so once again, we have to wait.
     

    James Ray, fwiw, wasn't around anyway. He hightailed it back to California:

      Waugh also said Ray, who led the sweat lodge ceremony, refused to talk to investigators on site and returned to California.

      "We will at some point in time schedule another interview with him," Waugh said.

      "I do not know why he chose not to speak with us," Rhodes added. "Everyone else we have spoken with has been very forthcoming with information."
      [/list]
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      Offline Inculcated

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      The dirty secret
      « Reply #52 on: June 30, 2010, 03:16:31 AM »
      By the accounts of his own staff that guru-warrior James Ray stood by without rendering aid as participants were suffering and dying.

      I watched the Primetime on that tonight. It was intensely disturbing.It was so ugly to see the ad hoc collection of all too familiar elements that were incorporated into those *teachings*.“Play full on” was their dissembling stop thought of the act as if variety. On it went from the (literal) haircut initiation to holotropic breath work and on to inane psychodramas (which resulted in a jump to suicide from a previous group and by the last had James Ray robed in the role of a mute god while participants simulated seppuku/hara-kiri pantomimed sacrifices) + circular-logic and an amalgam of metphyspsychological hocus-pocus. What those people went through was a panoply of more of the same, and it’s just so awful. It was a Grand-Guignol, all culminating into the rebirthing experience that resulted in such senseless deaths.

      Best line from that profile was: "The Laws of Attraction are very different from the laws of the State of Arizona."

      Reportedly, he's had some difficulty actualizing his bail provisions and the self-styled guru-warrior's secret included a stash of steroids.
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      “A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis

      Offline Ursus

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      Two die at 'sweat lodge' retreat led by author
      « Reply #53 on: June 30, 2010, 11:11:58 AM »
      This article from the UK went into more detail re. the physical suffering that folks endured in the name of spiritual warrioring: "burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature."

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      The Sunday Times
      October 11, 2009
      Two die at 'sweat lodge' retreat led by author

      Times Online

      A self-help author who featured in the movie version of The Secret is at the centre of a police investigation into the deaths of two people at a "sweat lodge" that was meant to provide spiritual cleansing.

      Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said his detectives were focusing on James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if there was any criminal negligence.

      James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee and Kirby Brown, 38, of New York died after being overcome during a ceremony in which people were crowded inside a sauna-like tent. Nineteen other people were taken to area hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition on Saturday.

      Authorities have not determined what caused the deaths and illnesses, but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

      "We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Sheriff Waugh said.

      He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed. Sherriff Waugh said Mr Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

      The resort is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

      Often used in Native American ceremonies, a sweat lodge, similar to a sauna, is an enclosed space where water is poured on heated rocks. The retreat lodge was only four and a half feet tall at its highest point, Mr Waugh said.

      Mr Ray rented the Angel Valley Retreat Centre just outside Sedona to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life". Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

      Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 38.5-square-metre sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Mr Ray, Sheriff Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

      Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the full two hours.

      The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet on Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3pm.

      Two hours later, a woman dialled the emergency dispatcher to say that two people, whom Sherriff Waugh identified as Ms Brown and Mr Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

      A nurse hired by Mr Ray was directing rescue efforts including cardiopulmonary resuscitation when emergency crews arrived, Sherriff Waugh said. Mr Shore and Ms Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

      Autopsies were conducted on Friday, but the results are pending additional tests.

      Sheriff's Lt David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

      Mr Ray, who was in the sweat lodge for the ceremony, has been holding retreats there since 2003. He has appeared on Oprah Winfrey's television show and wrote a best-selling book, Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want.

      In his most recent posting on his Twitter account Mr Ray said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

      "My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."


      © Times Newspapers Ltd 2010 Registered in England No. 894646 Registered office: 1 Virginia Street, London, E98 1XY
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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      Offline DannyB II

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      Re: The dirty secret
      « Reply #54 on: June 30, 2010, 04:02:16 PM »
      Quote from: "Inculcated"
      By the accounts of his own staff that guru-warrior James Ray stood by without rendering aid as participants were suffering and dying.

      I watched the Primetime on that tonight. It was intensely disturbing.It was so ugly to see the ad hoc collection of all too familiar elements that were incorporated into those *teachings*.“Play full on” was their dissembling stop thought of the act as if variety. On it went from the (literal) haircut initiation to  breath work

      holotropic:
      Holotropic Breathwork is a form of breathwork  developed by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D. and Christina Grof, that allows access to nonordinary states of consciousness. Holotropic breathing has some similarities to Rebirthing-Breathwork, but was developed independently. Holotropic Breathwork is an approach to self-exploration and healing that integrates insights from modern consciousness research, anthropology, various depth psychologies, transpersonal psychology, Eastern spiritual practices, and mystical traditions of the world. The name Holotropic means "moving toward wholeness" (from the Greek "holos"=whole and "trepein"=moving in the direction of something).

      The method comprises five elements: group process, intensified breathing (so-called hyperventilation), evocative music, focused body work, and expressive drawing. The method's general effect is a non-specific amplification of a person's psychic process, which facilitates the psyche's natural capacity for healing.

      Holotropic Breathwork is usually done in groups, although individual sessions are done. Within the groups, people work in pairs and alternate in the roles of experiencer ("breather") and "sitter". The sitter's primary responsibility is to focus compassionate attention on the breather. Secondarily, the sitter is available to assist the breather, but not to interfere or interrupt the process. The same is true for trained facilitators, who are available as helpers if necessary.

      Originally developed as an adjunct to psychedelic psychotherapy, Holotropic Breathwork is an autonomous psychotherapeutic practice which, nevertheless, retains many of the clinical precautionary measures that were implemented in the medical use of LSD.  




      and on to inane psychodramas (which resulted in a jump to suicide from a previous group and by the last had James Ray robed in the role of a mute god while participants simulated seppuku/hara-kiri pantomimed sacrifices) + circular-logic and an amalgam of


      metphyspsychological: is this misspelled, if not what dictionary or book can I find it in.



      What those people went through was a panoply of more of the same, and it’s just so awful. It was a
      Grand-Guignol:
      Le Théâtre du Grand-Guignol (French pronunciation: [???? ?i??l]: "The Theater of the Big Puppet") — known as the Grand Guignol — was in the Pigalle area of Paris (at 20 bis, rue Chaptal). From its opening in 1897 until its closing in 1962 it specialized in naturalistic horror shows. Its name is often used as a general term for graphic, amoral  horror entertainment, a genre popular from Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre (for instance Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus and Webster's The White Devil) to today's splatter films.  
      Rocky Horror Picture Show; ........1979 Los Angles



      all culminating into the rebirthing experience that resulted in such senseless deaths.

      Best line from that profile was: "The Laws of Attraction are very different from the laws of the State of Arizona."

      Reportedly, he's had some difficulty actualizing his bail provisions and the self-styled guru-warrior's secret included a stash of steroids.

       
      No offense Inculcate but why do you reject so many different forms of healing. I am not necessarily talking about your responses to James Ray's fiasco. I think your own views are coming through also. You sound like you work in the mental health industry, I was wondering what would you suggest for yourself or others for healing treatment.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Stand and fight, till there is no more.

      Offline Ursus

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      Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape
      « Reply #55 on: June 30, 2010, 08:17:43 PM »
      The Daily Courier
      10/10/2009 5:04:00 PM

      Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape
      By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press


      This April 2008 photo provided by the family of Kirby Brown shows the 38-year-old woman from Westtown, N.Y. Brown was one of two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a retreat just outside of Sedona. Family of Kirby Brown/
      The Associated Press


      PRESCOTT - A 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art, a family spokesman said.

      Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y., had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

      "Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

      Brown was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in a crudely built sweat lodge during a spiritual cleansing ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

      A man who answered the door at Shore's address in Wisconsin said he had no immediate comment.

      Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

      Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests.

      Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths and illnesses but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

      Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state. No charges have been filed.

      "We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said.

      He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

      Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

      "My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same.

      Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. His publicist, Howard Bragman, declined to comment Friday and didn't return a call Saturday from The Associated Press.

      The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

      Ray rented the resort to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held similar retreats at the resort in the past. Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

      Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

      Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire two hours.

      The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

      Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

      A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

      Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

      McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.

      Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Genesco, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

      "She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.


      © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Joel

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      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Reply #56 on: June 30, 2010, 08:41:03 PM »
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:48:35 PM by Joel »

      Offline DannyB II

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      Re: Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape
      « Reply #57 on: June 30, 2010, 08:54:01 PM »
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      The Daily Courier
      10/10/2009 5:04:00 PM

      Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape
      By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press


      This April 2008 photo provided by the family of Kirby Brown shows the 38-year-old woman from Westtown, N.Y. Brown was one of two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a retreat just outside of Sedona. Family of Kirby Brown/
      The Associated Press


      PRESCOTT - A 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art, a family spokesman said.

      Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y., had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

      "Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

      Brown was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in a crudely built sweat lodge during a spiritual cleansing ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

      A man who answered the door at Shore's address in Wisconsin said he had no immediate comment.

      Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

      Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests.

      Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths and illnesses but ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.

      Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state. No charges have been filed.

      "We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said.

      He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

      Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

      "My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same.

      Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. His publicist, Howard Bragman, declined to comment Friday and didn't return a call Saturday from The Associated Press.

      The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who have declined to comment.

      Ray rented the resort to hold a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held similar retreats at the resort in the past. Participants, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend this year's event.

      Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot sweat lodge during a two-hour period that consisted of eight 15-minute rounds and various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. After each round, the flap to the crudely constructed structure was raised to allow more heated rocks to be brought inside.

      Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire two hours.

      The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

      Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

      A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

      Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities are looking into whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

      McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.

      Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Genesco, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

      "She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.


      © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.

      Like I said these were not folks without smarts.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Stand and fight, till there is no more.

      Offline Ursus

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #58 on: July 01, 2010, 10:21:37 AM »
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Like I said these were not folks without smarts.
      Often it is they who are the easiest to be duped. Precisely 'cuz they don't believe they can be.

      Appealing to a mark's vanity on the basis of their intelligence, "spirituality," altruism, idealism, or even "manliness," to cite some examples, is the surest way to get a mark invested in getting him or herself hooked on the koolaid.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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      Offline DannyB II

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #59 on: July 01, 2010, 02:11:54 PM »
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Like I said these were not folks without smarts.
      Often it is they who are the easiest to be duped. Precisely 'cuz they don't believe they can be.

      Appealing to a mark's vanity on the basis of their intelligence, "spirituality," altruism, idealism, or even "manliness," to cite some examples, is the surest way to get a mark invested in getting him or herself hooked on the koolaid.

      I will not argue this point, Ursus.  Been guilty myself a few times.
      I don't believe it is as sinister as you make it, though. Maybe I am reading
      more into your posts, if I am I apologize.
      I also don't believe this is your typical "kool-aid" drinking populace. They were
      not there for the kool-aid, I think the experience they were looking for was like
      a drug, they just wanted to get high.
      I hope this makes some sense, it is the best way I can explain what I am trying to say.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Stand and fight, till there is no more.