Author Topic: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid  (Read 15332 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2009, 04:07:47 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Still not even one link outside fornits or cafety?

Does anyone really think that someone with no back ground in residential treatment, no understanding of what is involved or what the kids go through on a daily basis, What type of kids are there and the type of environment.  You think this person would be qualified to design and implement a clinical study to show effectiveness on a place he/she has no experience in.. what questions to ask etc.

Or another question… who would be more qualified to interview a kid who just left a program…. Someone with no experience or link to the industry (like you would like) or someone from fornits?  Who would ask the most appropriate questions?.

see my point?

Actually an independent study would be best done by a group totally independent of the mental health field.  It's merely collecting data;  Behrens company sells its services to programs - how can you not expect her to not back them?

Its more than that.  They need to know what questions to ask and understand the process they are testing.  How could non doctors develop a test to screen heart patients on various heart medications and various types of treatments and advice... why would you deny a heart doctor to be part of the team?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2009, 04:12:21 PM »
So since she is not "presently" part of the industry then the study can be considered independent.....
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2009, 04:16:13 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
So since she is not "presently" part of the industry then the study can be considered independent.....


No.  Her company:  Canyon Research and Consulting, a company that provides consulting and training services to mental health treatment programs and providers.

Her company depends on programs.  She is not independent.  She is part of the industry.

'nuff said, kid killer.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2009, 04:18:52 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Precisely!  Anyone who has actually worked with this industry would automatically disqualify themselves for an independent study.  Any competent research group, using standard methods, would be able to independently conduct a proper study if they were worth their salt to begin with.  It is not entirely unreasonable to consult with people in the industry when conducting research, but to have those who are in the industry conducting the research would be unreasonable.

This has historically been a huge problem in science.  Scientists who have a vested interest or desire for a certain outcome, finding exactly what they were looking for.  That is why independent peer-reviewed appraisals are so important.

Yes, I can see your point.  If Ellen was presently working for a wilderness program and running the testing then it would be a direct conflict of interest.  That is why I am looking for any present relationship that she has with Aspen and there doesnt seem to be any.
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Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2009, 04:20:32 PM »
You're foundation for your arguments keeps getting weaker and weaker with every post.  Obviously any connection, past or present to the industry taints her independence and neutrality.  And if she worked for Aspen specifically, that would negate all independence.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2009, 04:33:09 PM »
I apologize for not being able to find it in the thread if it's here, but who paid Behren's company to  conduct the study?   Behrens may not work for Aspen currently, but is Aspen one of her company's customers?  She does sell her services to mental health treatment...oh, but that would leave Aspen out, wouldn't it?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2009, 04:33:56 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
You're foundation for your arguments keeps getting weaker and weaker with every post.  Obviously any connection, past or present to the industry taints her independence and neutrality.  And if she worked for Aspen specifically, that would negate all independence.

Since the first post we havent established that she works for the industry (a post outside fornits/cafety).  So far the study is considered independent.  Independent is one of the criteria that we all agree on.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2009, 04:36:43 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
You're foundation for your arguments keeps getting weaker and weaker with every post.  Obviously any connection, past or present to the industry taints her independence and neutrality.  And if she worked for Aspen specifically, that would negate all independence.

Since the first post we havent established that she works for the industry (a post outside fornits/cafety).  So far the study is considered independent.  Independent is one of the criteria that we all agree on.

 Canyon Research and Consulting, a company that provides consulting and training services to mental health treatment programs and providers.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2009, 04:44:34 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
You're foundation for your arguments keeps getting weaker and weaker with every post.  Obviously any connection, past or present to the industry taints her independence and neutrality.  And if she worked for Aspen specifically, that would negate all independence.

Since the first post we havent established that she works for the industry (a post outside fornits/cafety).  So far the study is considered independent.  Independent is one of the criteria that we all agree on.


Would you consider a study conducted by Lon Woodbury to be independent, Roob?  Because by your critereria Lon Woodbury would be independent:  he doesn't currently work for a program or the industry.
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Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2009, 04:45:21 PM »
Yes, keep in mind that independence is only one thing we agree upon.  We also require a valid study.  And we'd also like to know how the study was conducted.  Without knowing how it was conducted there is no way to validate it's accuracy.  As you are using this study to claim that somehow it makes Aspen a valid program that actually helps kids rather than causes damage, or simply does nothing for them, it is important to show how the study was conducted.  

So don't think that showing her independence alone is all that is needed to suddenly validate the study itself.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2009, 04:46:01 PM »
http://cafety.org/component/content/art ... s-aug-2006
NOTE: This is an ASPEN EDUCATION GROUP funded study. Dr. Behrens is a former employee of an Aspen school - information left undisclosed by Dr. Behrens.
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Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2009, 06:09:02 PM »
Wow, I just read the entire study and what a load of crap it was!

One of the things we learned so soon after arriving at one of these teen prisons was how our parents had no clue what our real problems were.  So the study is making an apples and oranges comparison right from the start.  Much like asking cops and criminals to make reports on each other.  Both are biased.  

Also, the reports taken at admission time in to the program are obviously going to be high skewed and totally unreliable.  And this was clearly evident in the study for the reasons stated above.  Parents reported far more symptoms at admissions and students reported more at the outcome.  Which is very revealing in itself.  Our parents had no clue of our problems and therefore came to conclusions about what was wrong with us that were often based on faulty information and generally just a lack of communication between parents and their teens.  An example is that my parents, at my admission to RMA, claimed I was using drugs, alcohol, smoking, sneaking out at night, stealing, etc.  None of which was true.  So there are a bunch of factually wrong "symptoms" that a parent might report.  

Whereas we are prisoners were forced to endure endless humiliations, deprivations, cruel punishments and strange cult rituals, thus we obviously came to have symptoms we didn't have when we arrived.  And through the forced disclosures and labeling that went on, we were often made to believe we had guilt and issues that we didn't have when we arrived.  Having rapes blamed on the victim, feeling your parents divorce was your fault, etc.  So the study above was based on data that was intended and known to be skewed from the start.  So much of the study was self-fulfilling.  

Obviously if you are forced to attend a teen prison camp, you are not going to want to be there and are likely to learn, as we did, that giving the wrong answers that the parents or staff wanted to hear resulted in harsh and abusive punishments.  Thus you quickly learned from admission to discharge how to hide your true feelings and emotions, but were equipped with a large vocabulary of psycho-babble and information on what was expected of you and how to say so.  So when a student is asked how they feel, do they think they benefited from the program, do they think their lives are better...?  They know the answers they are expected to give and know the consequences for failing to give them.  Thus, the study gets the answers it sought as there was no other possible outcome as the teens were taught that not providing the correct responses would lead to discipline.  And similarly, the teens knew that ultimately pleasing their parents was the goal, not the staff.  Thus they would show from admissions to discharge exactly what the parents needed to see and hear from them in order to leave and be able to live normal lives once more.  Self fulfilling all the way.

However, it was suggested that the study included a post-discharge questionnaire at one year, whereas it was stated in the study itself that this was a goal in the future, so they did not in fact have any reliable information about outcomes based on how the teens performed once out of the programs for any length of time.  Just the period from admissions to discharge.  Therefore we have no reliable aspect to tell parents, the real customers intended to gobble up this nonsense success story, whether their kids are really changed positively for the long term.

A real study would have had independent analysis conducted of the students themselves.  Even something as simple as whether they could land a job and hold on to it for a significant period of time, or if they were able to enroll in a college and actually complete course work with a satisfactory grade point average.  These would be far more revealing and relevant to the subject of success.  Asking kids and their parents to rate their own perceptions and success is silly as it pertains to deciding whether a program is successful or not.  If you go to a gym to work out and they ask you at the start for the reasons you are there, whether you want to be there, whether you think you will meet with success...?  The answers given are really not all the important to anything.  So if you ask the gym attendee two years later if they felt they have improved, or met goals they wanted to meet while there, if they feel better about themselves for having attended, what value can you place on their answers?  And then add in the other group being interviewed are the trainers at the gym and their perceptions of the attendees initial needs, their progress through the program and their final position on improvements...  There is little here that isn't self fulfilling or revealing of anything substantial.  

Interviewer to attendee-- Why did you come to this gym?  Answer:  "I was hoping to get in better shape, improve my appearance, get more energy, maybe meet some nice people."

Interviewer to trainer-- Why do you think the attendee has joined this gym?  Answer:  "I think they have low self esteem, have no drive to succeed, need help getting out of their rut."

Two years later...

Interviewer to attendee-- Do you feel like you have made some improvements or met your goals since you arrived here?  Answer:  "I feel like I have made a lot of progress.  I think I could do more, but I think I have come a long way since when I first arrived.  I feel better about myself, I have met some nice people.  The trainers are nice, but firm.  I think they have helped me a lot.  I guess I am better now than I would have been if I never came to this gym."

Interviewer to trainer--  Do you feel like your student has improved over the last two years?  Do you think they are where they need to be?  Answer:  "I think they have more to do, they aren't quite there yet, but they have progressed a lot since arriving and I see a change in attitude.  I think they have improved a lot in the area of self esteem, and have learned a lot. They are certainly better than when they first arrived."

Self fulfilling answers to questions of no value.  The results were expected.  What else would they have said to such questions?  Sure, there would be a slight variance to the answers if you asked 1000 different people, but they would start off similarly and end similarly.  And since you'd know that going in, of what value would it be to have bothered to ask in the first place?  None.

Thus the Aspen Study was of no value because the criteria used to judge success was based on useless information to begin with.  

But had actual trained psychologists and therapists show up and ask the students:  "Did you feel as though the screaming and yelling in raps, the humiliations, the endless threats of punishments helped you to improve?"  What would the answer be?  Were the methods used on you successful by themselves?  

The study comes off more like this...  You have just been released from prison.  Someone asks if you are happy to be out?  Then they ask if you felt like being in there scared you enough not to do it again?  Would you do it all over again knowing you'd go back in?  What are the answers going to be?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2009, 06:48:10 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
http://cafety.org/component/content/article/121-research/372-upon-discharge-from-programs-teens-report-happiness-aug-2006
NOTE: This is an ASPEN EDUCATION GROUP funded study. Dr. Behrens is a former employee of an Aspen school - information left undisclosed by Dr. Behrens.

We were looking for something which is outside of Fornits, cafety etc. but we havent been able to find anything yet.
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Offline Troll Control

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2009, 06:58:17 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
http://http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-110hhrg11041839/html/CHRG-110hhrg11041839.htm

Sorry, Deborah happens to be exactly right.  Link above corroborates her assertion and proves Whooter completely wrong.  Wiggle, wiggle.  Squirm, squirm.  Can't change the facts, Whooter.  Behrens was an Aspen employee.  Too bad for you.  You've no credibility left.   :rofl:

Can't change these facts.  Is the federal gov't considered to be "outside Cafety and fornits" I wonder?  This link keeps being posted but somehow Whooter keeps saying he can't see it.  And then he keeps saying we all agree the study is independent.  But I keep seeing people say the exact opposite, just like in the gov't report linked in this post.  Is Whooter blind or is he just a huge liar?  

Either way, it's delightful and very revealing to see him lose his cool so many times while posting nonstop for two or three days now.  He's so out of whack it's just too funny.  To watch him flail and keep saying he can't see what's been shoved in his face like a puppy's nose in a shitpile on the carpet is hilarious.

He's just upset that now he's been proved wrong by his own people.  Aspen admitted they offer no treatment and Whooter's life for the last five or six years is utterly destroyed and worthless now.  

Don't whine too much now, Whooter.  We all know it stings, but try to set an example for all those kids you lock up at Aspen who would be punished severely for lying like you do every few minutes here.  Chin up, Whootie.  It's not the end of the world just because everything you stand for has been ruined.  Find a new cause to support.  This one's all but dead.  Like your credibility.

Anyone else find it deliciously funny that dumbass Whooter unfortunately posted this stupid study again just a day before Aspen admitted it's all lies?  Timing is everything!
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Aspen Education Group deceptively markets short term invalid
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2009, 07:38:01 PM »
Deborah was a fornits admin, who was outed several times for altering posts and fabricating information.  If you can find a link to an Aspen site or other site outside fornits, Cafety etc.  I will take a look.  We have had several people looking for a tie and there just isnt any.

I am sure if Deborah is telling the truth then there would be evidence other than just her word.
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