Crack addict says Minnesota Teen Challenge saved her life

[Anonymous]

choices come as a result of a thinking process that is directly connected to a worldview. When you are trained like a dog to accept a different worldview, your choices change, because you are thinking differently. When you are brainwashed, you are not thinking for yourself, you are allowing others to think for you. when you are trained to not even consider allowing yourself to think for yourself, your choices become not yours but other's.

My hatred for AA is not irrational. I have alot of rationale to hate it, primarily because the AA belief system, the cultish idea that addiction is a disease and that only a higher power can keep you clean (an oxymoronic statement to begin with), has made it's way into mainstream thought and has corrupted our society and destroyed many, many lives. Then there is the despicable standard that says that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions when drunk....something widely accepted by AA and against what you yourself said. Alcoholics (non-brainwashed) are completely responsible for their actions no matter what, because they CHOOSE to drink. Those that are in the AA program, strongly believe that they are not responsible for drunk actions because they did not choose to drink - and they in fact are not truly responsible for their actions because they have been brainwashed by AA to believe that they are not in control - and therefore do not have any self-control because they believe such a thing does not exist; they do not recognize the existence of willpower against substance abuse within themselves. essentially, they are being misled.....and this has consequences for society as a whole because alcoholics are not held responsible for their actions (offered "treatment" in the form of even more AA instead) which only perpetuates their own helplessness. Using or not using drugs is a choice only if you believe it's a choice. as long as you believe that you are powerless, you will be powerless and you will have to resort to praying to your higher power (9/10 the higher power is effectively the groupmind/collective consciousness of the AA group).


no, posting on fornits does not stop meetings. I understand that. but hopefully, someone who does go to AA will read this and think for themselves for the first time, and realize that they are being misled. In this context, this is not a nothing website because Fornits receives thousands of hits a day, most of which are by individuals were either in treatment once, are in it now, parents looking for treatment for their kids, and attorneys researching leads for cases.....such as myself.

you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.

I on the other hand, am fully aware of my actions and have been since the day i decided that no higher power, no group consciousness, no drug could ever control me as long as i did not allow it/them to.

Despite the fact that i smoke weed weekly, i can honestly say that i am %100 sober. Sobriety is not a chemical state, it's a state of mind. You are most definitely not sober, even if you have never done a drug in your life. You are intoxicated with extremist ideology. NO ONE, i repeat NO ONE who is an avid AA member is sober, regardless of how long it's been since their last drink. WHY? because they are not in control, they have surrendered their right to power over themselves to a higher power, and therefore are unable to make choices or think for themselves.

what i'm trying to say....is (holding you to your own standards) a cop-out for alcoholics, addicts, and their families to believe that they are powerless over substances and therefore not responsible for their drug/alcohol-induced actions and lack of self control. the responsibility is shouldered on the group, which cannot be held accountable.

[Anonymous]

another thing i forgot to mention:

Alcoholics are responsible because they choose to drink.
I did not choose to be brainwashed. Most people who join AA also do not choose to be brainwashed, they choose to make themselves sober and are misled then brainwashed when they attend AA.

[Anonymous]

relax dude. you really are wasting your time. most programmies will never be able to wrap their minds around what you just said. Thats why they are programmies, not philosophers or lawyers.

[Anonymous]

choices come as a result of a thinking process that is directly connected to a worldview. When you are trained like a dog to accept a different worldview, your choices change, because you are thinking differently. When you are brainwashed, you are not thinking for yourself, you are allowing others to think for you. when you are trained to not even consider allowing yourself to think for yourself, your choices become not yours but other's.

My hatred for AA is not irrational. I have alot of rationale to hate it, primarily because the AA belief system, the cultish idea that addiction is a disease and that only a higher power can keep you clean (an oxymoronic statement to begin with), has made it's way into mainstream thought and has corrupted our society and destroyed many, many lives. Then there is the despicable standard that says that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions when drunk....something widely accepted by AA and against what you yourself said. Alcoholics (non-brainwashed) are completely responsible for their actions no matter what, because they CHOOSE to drink. Those that are in the AA program, strongly believe that they are not responsible for drunk actions because they did not choose to drink - and they in fact are not truly responsible for their actions because they have been brainwashed by AA to believe that they are not in control - and therefore do not have any self-control because they believe such a thing does not exist; they do not recognize the existence of willpower against substance abuse within themselves. essentially, they are being misled.....and this has consequences for society as a whole because alcoholics are not held responsible for their actions (offered "treatment" in the form of even more AA instead) which only perpetuates their own helplessness. Using or not using drugs is a choice only if you believe it's a choice. as long as you believe that you are powerless, you will be powerless and you will have to resort to praying to your higher power (9/10 the higher power is effectively the groupmind/collective consciousness of the AA group).


no, posting on fornits does not stop meetings. I understand that. but hopefully, someone who does go to AA will read this and think for themselves for the first time, and realize that they are being misled. In this context, this is not a nothing website because Fornits receives thousands of hits a day, most of which are by individuals were either in treatment once, are in it now, parents looking for treatment for their kids, and attorneys researching leads for cases.....such as myself.

you my freind, are just a brainwashed programmie so i really dont hold you're trolling against you. You have been misled yourself, you are brainwashed, and you dont know any better. You are not responsible for my actions.

I on the other hand, am fully aware of my actions and have been since the day i decided that no higher power, no group consciousness, no drug could ever control me as long as i did not allow it/them to.

Despite the fact that i smoke weed weekly, i can honestly say that i am %100 sober. Sobriety is not a chemical state, it's a state of mind. You are most definitely not sober, even if you have never done a drug in your life. You are intoxicated with extremist ideology. NO ONE, i repeat NO ONE who is an avid AA member is sober, regardless of how long it's been since their last drink. WHY? because they are not in control, they have surrendered their right to power over themselves to a higher power, and therefore are unable to make choices or think for themselves.

Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

[Anonymous]

So why are you wasting your time on this "nothing" website?  What does that say about YOU? :rofl:

Programs and AA are just a way to trade one addiction for another.   There is not much difference.  I've seem 'em feeding their nicotine and caffeine addictions, telling themselves they are powerless over alcohol while sitting in a meeting NOT DRINKING  :rofl:

The both want to keep you disempowered.  I have seen first hand what happens when a person with a drug or alcohol habit learns to value their own life and accept their personal power instead of turning it over to a program or so-called highter power.  Usually they become more responsible and more likely to give up substances.  Not everyone does but that is their choice and they are responsible for those choices and the consequences thereof.  There is no "higher" power or "lower power", there is only the personal power of personal acceptance and responsibility.

So toddle along now to your AA meeting. :dose:

[Anonymous]

Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

saying such a thing just propels you further into idiocracy. Just because alot of people believe something does not make it true. You have just proven that you barely graduated high school and probably never attended college, otherwise you'd be able to pick apart my logic easily without resorting to Argumentum ad populum....i left plenty of holes and fallacies in there on purpose to see if you would go for them, and you didnt, instead resorting to your carnal social instincts....your brainwashing...without a single independent thought popping into your head. have you even ever head of "Argumentum ad populum"? of course not....if you did, you wouldnt use it.

heres a primer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


To the other above poster: you are mostly correct, except for that "there is no higher power" part. It doesnt matter if you believe in god or angels or whatever, the "higher power" as you've probably been told in countless AA meetings...has nothing to do with a spiritual deity unless you choose for it to be that (in which case the deity is simply a figurehead, a puppet on strings for whatever the AA group believes in). the higher power is the group itself.

here is some stuff to think about for all the flatlanders:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction

[Anonymous]

I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

YAY! LETS ALL DANCE AROUND THROWING BOOKS IN BONFIRES! YAY! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD'S EXACT WORDS (THE BIBLE) AND THE BIG BOOK (THE OTHER BIBLE) ARE THE WORK OF SATAN!? DONT YOU KNOW ALL THESE EDUCATED THINKERS ARE SATANISTS? THEY SHOULD ALL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE JUST LIKE THEIR BOOKS WITH ALL THE OTHER JEWS AND NIGGERS! YAY! PRAISE JESUS! HAIL MARY!  GYEDERDONE!


p.s, would someone pass me a bud light? i'm thirsty for some piss. and while you're at it, can you adjust my bedsheet? the eye holes are misaligned.....

[Anonymous]

Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

welcum back. you must be the sarah palin lover we all love to ream. enjoying your stay? why do you bother coming around here anyway? maybe you should donate some money...you're obviously getting quite a bit of satisfaction spreading your ignorant bullshit all over here yourself.

[Anonymous]

I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

YAY! LETS ALL DANCE AROUND THROWING BOOKS IN BONFIRES! YAY! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD'S EXACT WORDS (THE BIBLE) AND THE BIG BOOK (THE OTHER BIBLE) ARE THE WORK OF SATAN!? DONT YOU KNOW ALL THESE EDUCATED THINKERS ARE SATANISTS? THEY SHOULD ALL BE BURNED AT THE STAKE JUST LIKE THEIR BOOKS WITH ALL THE OTHER JEWS AND NIGGERS! YAY! PRAISE JESUS! HAIL MARY!  GYEDERDONE!


p.s, would someone pass me a bud light? i'm thirsty for some piss. and while you're at it, can you adjust my bedsheet? the eye holes are misaligned.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law.

Because telling a repetitive internet idiot to shut up is not analogous to burning Jews.

[Anonymous]

Your logic fails. Proof of this is in the original article in this posting x countless others = you are a lone nut. But hey, maybe you should consider donating money to fornits since they give you an outlet for this bullshit. I know nobody else would leave it up on their website, talk about a waste of bandwith.

saying such a thing just propels you further into idiocracy. Just because alot of people believe something does not make it true. You have just proven that you barely graduated high school and probably never attended college, otherwise you'd be able to pick apart my logic easily without resorting to Argumentum ad populum....i left plenty of holes and fallacies in there on purpose to see if you would go for them, and you didnt, instead resorting to your carnal social instincts....your brainwashing...without a single independent thought popping into your head. have you even ever head of "Argumentum ad populum"? of course not....if you did, you wouldnt use it.

heres a primer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


To the other above poster: you are mostly correct, except for that "there is no higher power" part. It doesnt matter if you believe in god or angels or whatever, the "higher power" as you've probably been told in countless AA meetings...has nothing to do with a spiritual deity unless you choose for it to be that (in which case the deity is simply a figurehead, a puppet on strings for whatever the AA group believes in). the higher power is the group itself.

here is some stuff to think about for all the flatlanders:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconsciousness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_behaviour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction

Those are some impressive links, but they change the fact you are an extremist. I see this post and read it  and take it at face value. This woman had a big problem with drug addiction, and she says that the treatment saved her life. I'm happy for her that she found what worked. You read this story and you make fun of people for admitting if they didn't quit drugs they'd be dead or in jail. Guess what? This  ends up being reality for a large number of people, despite your ridicule. AA is a huge organization with thousands of meetings going on all over the world 24 hours a day. Obviously they are doing something right.

 But no, because you had a bad experience at AA or weren't willing to do the work, you've declared it irrelevant to everyone. Instead of accepting that AA works other people, lots of people, you make up some grand delusion about mass brainwashing and post a bunch of links. You are just like the 'programies' you claim to fight, they are unable to see both sides of an argument and think everyone who says programs are bad is, guess what, brainwashed. All of you extremists are exactly alike, even in the way you posts your manifestos all over the internet as if anybody cares. But your extremist arrogance convinces you that you are 'saving lives' and all that, just like the rest. AA works for a hell of a lot more people than it doesn't work for, the free market has spoken., Get over it.

[Anonymous]

I never said AA doesnt stop people from drinking or doing drugs.

i said that they never get truly sober, because AA/NA never gets them truly sober, they stop doing drugs by tricking themselves and devolving psychologically. you are ignoring the meat of my post and just tearing at the skin, and yet again, you use argumentum ad populum (free market has spoken... :roflmao: ). according to you, the means justify the ends; you are the extremist here. To me, no means justify the ends, and i feel to get to that end, the only way is through personal willpower, not through sacrifice of independent thinking to a higher power.


and sorry to burst your bubble, but AA/NA actually doesnt work for more people than it does, and it's recidivism/relapse rates, and the number of individuals who add marks to their rap sheets while in the program, are higher than in any other treatment methodology. Furthermore....how many people are actually helped by AA, and how many people are tricked into thinking they were helped by AA? afteall...as another poster pointed out, they go to meetings and sit there NOT DRINKING. no higher power gets you to stop drinking. you stop yourself from drinking, but sometimes it takes tricking someone into thinking a higher power helped them stop, when it was really themselves.

just by going by the phrase "...you refused to do the work" i can tell you're just a programmie. You're right, i didnt do the work. Instead, i decided to become TRULY honest with myself and quit on my own. did you hear that? i recovered from a SERIOUS physical and mental addiction to both heavy opiates and stimulants, without the need for a false higher power or group meetings. Everyone i know that did likewise....is clean as a whistle and have not looked back. relapse is not in their vocabulary. my friends that joined NA....the're all still stuck thinking they are addicts and relapsing regularly. so there you go...the free market has spoken.  :sue:  .

also, AA sure as hell (as admitted by anyone who read the book) doesnt help anyone forced into the program. then why, tell me, do programs force people into AA? why does the legal system consider AA a viable method of treatment in leu of jail for some offenses? How many people are at AA that actually want to be there, and how many people are there because they are forced to go by their parents/probation officer/judge/residential treatment center?

You need to learn how to look between the lines, and not accept everything you are told at face value.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1 ... Page1.html
http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htm

furthermore, not one single respectable medical society supports, endorses, reccomends, or even recognizes alchoholics/narcotics anonymous. It is not, by the medical field, considered viable treatment. go wrap your mind around that, Mr truth is found in argumentum ad populum (free market).


also, you might want to consider the fact that you are the extremist here, and i'm the realist. You have undying loyalty for a cult program and your only defense towards it is that i am lazy and crazy and argumentum ad populum will prove it works (it actually proves it doesnt....read the links), I have a very logical set of reasons why AA does not work, or if it does, works through dishonest means. If you actually talk to some non-AA-brainwashees for once in your life (i know, it's hard, "they dont understand you"), you will find that you are actually the minority and extremist. No one with a head on their shoulders considers AA to be an honest and effective way to get sober.

you should also consider facts that public AA meeting attendance AND retention is lower in places like NYC and LA than it is in places like Knoxville TN or Tallahassee FL. educated people know better than to allow someone to convince them to lie to themselves.

[Anonymous]

I have yet to see any AA attendee get sober and stay sober while attending meetings.


Going to AA meetings regularly is considered relapsing in my book. Just trading one addiction for another. The idea that addiction is an incurable lifelong disease is horseshit. I know countless individuals just like the above guest who recovered from heavy addictions purely with their own willpower, without the need for AA, and never looked back. If you need AA to make you think you've solved your problems, you're a brainless spineless weakling and deserve to be naturally selected out of the gene pool via your addiction be it heroin or coffee and cigarettes.

[Anonymous]

I have yet to see any AA attendee get sober and stay sober while attending meetings.


Going to AA meetings regularly is considered relapsing in my book. Just trading one addiction for another. The idea that addiction is an incurable lifelong disease is horseshit. I know countless individuals just like the above guest who recovered from heavy addictions purely with their own willpower, without the need for AA, and never looked back. If you need AA to make you think you've solved your problems, you're a brainless spineless weakling and deserve to be naturally selected out of the gene pool via your addiction be it heroin or coffee and cigarettes.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I know I'm way behind on this argument, but may I interject this theory...

I believe addiction is simply a symptom of a combination of pre- existing disorders and self-harming decision making... yet you can go your whole life without even trying drugs and still be an addict. We've all heard of the "addictive personality" well why haven't they come up with a disorder to correctly categorize this behavior pattern? Furthermore why is there no psychological or medical treatment for such a disorder?

Instead the accepted theory is that addiction to just about anything under the sun is a disease?... I'm sorry but that simply makes no logical sense. The only reason this assumption came to be is because sympathetic doctors wanted addiction to be considered a medically treatable affliction, that does not mean that it meets any of the requirements to be categorized as a disease.

Yet people are led to believe that something as serious as a disease can be managed by weekly group meetings? I don't understand how this misconception has become so widely accepted, and furthermore pushed into mainstream by our judicial system, its almost like people actually prefer to be ignorant.

This woman who the press so lovingly coins a "crack head" was definitely on her way down a slippery slope, and her arrest did throw a wrench in that progress but does that prove that the methods of addiction treatment is successful? Where is she today and has she really abstained from drugs? or has she relapsed and is now deadinsaneorinjail? My guesstimate is that she is probably smoking a doob right now... and that she did relapse as most do and only after did she start to re-teach herself moderation and responsible usage.

I really think there is a way to successfully TREAT addiction problems but from experience I've come to believe that the way of AA/NA has just got it all wrong... unfortunately no one has really come up with a competing theory/ practice because of the state of our countries no tolerance polices fueled by the "war on drugs". I'm really hoping we as a society are willing to shed the shadow of our previous generations misconceptions and start enacting new and more effective policies. Unfortunately there are many many people who bullheadedly choose to live in the dark and make life as miserable as possible for everyone around them...

so thanks a lot sarah palin.

[Anonymous]

Yet people are led to believe that something as serious as a disease can be managed by weekly group meetings? I don't understand how this misconception has become so widely accepted, and furthermore pushed into mainstream by our judicial system, its almost like people actually prefer to be ignorant.
n.

they choose to be ignorant, they choose AA over willpower and moderation because it gives them a sense of power, it shoulders their responsibility on the higher power, the group, and the unseen force of their "addiction disease". AA makes life easy and keeps addicts empowered to do anything they want in the name of addiction.... because it's the addiction's fault, not theirs. It's not necessarily because of ignorance, it's because of laziness and lack of motivation to hold oneself accountable, and honest to oneself.

if you were to chose between these two things, what would you choose?
A. The fact that i drink a bottle of jack everyday is not my fault. i am not a bad person. I am not a weak person. i am a diseased person, and as long as I fulfill these twelve steps, my disease will be under control - not under my control, but under god's control. I am not responsible for anything i do drunk.

or

B. the fact that i drink a bottle of jack everyday IS my fault. I am a bad person, i have done horrible things as a result. they are all MY fault, not the alcohol's. I am weak because i can't force myself to stop easily. I am not diseased, I simply lack self-control. I am responsible for everything i do while drunk.

most people will pick A, because it's the easier choice. It keeps them from facing their own problems head-on. It limits their liability both socially and legally, and preserves their feeling of self-worth and social standing through sympathy. It also helps with legal defense...which is why it's accepted legally. Sometime within the last century some smart lawyer figured out that through the AA belief system, one's liability is limited if one performs an illegal act while drunk and while an alcoholic. This defense probably didnt work for a while...until a single judge or jury (probably an alcoholic himself/themselves, possibly also in AA) felt sympathetic and went for the defense. that set a precedent, and now half the municipalities in the US accept some form of the "AA" defense for things such a DUI first/second time offenders, drunk and disorderly, lewd public acts, child neglect, etc.