John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org

[Anonymous]

The "predetermined end" was supposed to be 18 in a worst case scenario, when a kid could shirk the yoke.  Programs got greedy and encouraged parents to seek extended guardianship of their kids past 18 to keep them confined.

There is no predetermined beginning and end in a program.  Just like a cult, you are trapped with no control over your life and the decisions affecting you.

[Whooter]

1

The "predetermined end" was supposed to be 18 in a worst case scenario, when a kid could shirk the yoke.  Programs got greedy and encouraged parents to seek extended guardianship of their kids past 18 to keep them confined.

There is no predetermined beginning and end in a program.  Just like a cult, you are trapped with no control over your life and the decisions affecting you.

I am glad our place was not like that.  It goes to show that the parents really need to do their homework before placing their kid.

[Whooter]

AuntieEm wrote:

You are so right about one thing: the family is "left out of it." Yes, these cults do keep the entire rest of the family far, far away from the child. They are exceptionally anti-family.

That is terrible.  I read a few horror stories here on fornits with places like straight where they were anti-family.  I feel bad for families who had to go thru that.  We experienced  just the opposite.  The goal was to bring the family closer together which they did and it was in shorter time then they originally thought it would take.

I hope they put all those places out of business and expose their business model and make it illegal.

[Anonymous]

1

The "predetermined end" was supposed to be 18 in a worst case scenario, when a kid could shirk the yoke.  Programs got greedy and encouraged parents to seek extended guardianship of their kids past 18 to keep them confined.

There is no predetermined beginning and end in a program.  Just like a cult, you are trapped with no control over your life and the decisions affecting you.

I am glad our place was not like that.  It goes to show that the parents really need to do their homework before placing their kid.

The subject of this thread didn't.

[Anonymous]

I hope they put all those places out of business and expose their business model and make it illegal.

Perhaps you would like to start with this one:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28474&start=0

[Whooter]

x

I hope they put all those places out of business and expose their business model and make it illegal.

Perhaps you would like to start with this one:

http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 74&start=0

I am not going to work to put places out of business.  I wouldnt be very good at it.  But the place you chose, Sagewalk, has predetermined end points and I havent read where they encourage families to be apart.  This was a poor example of a cult, I just dont see it.  Are there any programs left which try to drive a wedge in-between family members and extend stays from a promised 3 months to 3 years?  I havent heard of a place that is presently up and running.

[Whooter]

x

I hope they put all those places out of business and expose their business model and make it illegal.

Perhaps you would like to start with this one:

http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 74&start=0

I am not going to work to put places out of business.  I wouldnt be very good at it.  But the place you chose, Sagewalk, has predetermined end points and I havent read where they encourage families to be apart.  This was a poor example of a cult, I just dont see it.  Are there any programs left which try to drive a wedge in-between family members and extend stays from a promised 3 months to 3 years?  I havent heard of a place that is presently up and running.

That is actually a valid point.  The programs of today dont try to drive a wedge between the kid and his/her family.  They may not be effective but I dont think they can be called a cult. They just dont have any of the lasting attributes which define a cult.  Those places are long gone.

[Whooter]

x

I hope they put all those places out of business and expose their business model and make it illegal.

Perhaps you would like to start with this one:

http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 74&start=0

I am not going to work to put places out of business.  I wouldnt be very good at it.  But the place you chose, Sagewalk, has predetermined end points and I havent read where they encourage families to be apart.  This was a poor example of a cult, I just dont see it.  Are there any programs left which try to drive a wedge in-between family members and extend stays from a promised 3 months to 3 years?  I havent heard of a place that is presently up and running.

That is actually a valid point.  The programs of today dont try to drive a wedge between the kid and his/her family.  They may not be effective but I dont think they can be called a cult. They just dont have any of the lasting attributes which define a cult.  Those places are long gone.

Well, SageWalk just had a kid that was killed.  That is worse then being in a cult!!!

[Whooter]

Well, SageWalk just had a kid that was killed.  That is worse then being in a cult!!!

Well that is a different subject.  The places could be filled with axe murderers and still not be a cult.  The programs that I have read about that are operating today dont try to stretch out the stay from 3 months to 3 years like that lady was saying.  The programs try to bring families together as a goal instead of driving them apart.  People are confusing todays programs with those of the past.  That lady might have had her neice in a program years ago who knows?

[Ursus]

Well, SageWalk just had a kid that was killed.  That is worse then being in a cult!!!

Well that is a different subject.  The places could be filled with axe murderers and still not be a cult.  The programs that I have read about that are operating today dont try to stretch out the stay from 3 months to 3 years like that lady was saying.  The programs try to bring families together as a goal instead of driving them apart.  People are confusing todays programs with those of the past.  That lady might have had her neice in a program years ago who knows?

"That lady" was talking about Boulder Creek Academy, the incident in question happened within the past few years (niece got out about 6 months ago, if I'm not mistaken), and yes, they are still in operation, obviously.

Recent enough cult for ya, Whooter?

[Whooter]

Well, SageWalk just had a kid that was killed.  That is worse then being in a cult!!!

Well that is a different subject.  The places could be filled with axe murderers and still not be a cult.  The programs that I have read about that are operating today dont try to stretch out the stay from 3 months to 3 years like that lady was saying.  The programs try to bring families together as a goal instead of driving them apart.  People are confusing todays programs with those of the past.  That lady might have had her neice in a program years ago who knows?

"That lady" was talking about Boulder Creek Academy, the incident in question happened within the past few years (niece got out about 6 months ago, if I'm not mistaken), and yes, they are still in operation, obviously.

Recent enough cult for ya, Whooter?

We should try to identify these places and flag them.  I dont think it is right that they tell parents 3 months and then it turns into 3 years.  some of the info did seem cultish to me.  All the more reason to try to seperate them out.  My experience was anything but cultish so there are large variations from program to program which tells me that the cults are on the way out and that people have a choice.  The parents need to get better informed somehow before making a decision.

[Whooter]

Well, SageWalk just had a kid that was killed.  That is worse then being in a cult!!!

Well that is a different subject.  The places could be filled with axe murderers and still not be a cult.  The programs that I have read about that are operating today dont try to stretch out the stay from 3 months to 3 years like that lady was saying.  The programs try to bring families together as a goal instead of driving them apart.  People are confusing todays programs with those of the past.  That lady might have had her neice in a program years ago who knows?

"That lady" was talking about Boulder Creek Academy, the incident in question happened within the past few years (niece got out about 6 months ago, if I'm not mistaken), and yes, they are still in operation, obviously.

Recent enough cult for ya, Whooter?

We should try to identify these places and flag them.  I dont think it is right that they tell parents 3 months and then it turns into 3 years.  some of the info did seem cultish to me.  All the more reason to try to seperate them out.  My experience was anything but cultish so there are large variations from program to program which tells me that the cults are on the way out and that people have a choice.  The parents need to get better informed somehow before making a decision.

You need to be a little careful.  people here will take one experience and try to sell it as the norm for an entire industry.  Dont get too bogged down with a single event.  I have seen stories of someone who attended CEDU being reprinted and applied to programs which are not even operating in the same decade.  This sends a clear message that most programs are safe, but there are a few rotten apples that need to be avoided.

[Ursus]

You need to be a little careful. people here will take one experience and try to sell it as the norm for an entire industry. Dont get too bogged down with a single event. I have seen stories of someone who attended CEDU being reprinted and applied to programs which are not even operating in the same decade. This sends a clear message that most programs are safe, but there are a few rotten apples that need to be avoided.

Reprogramming a kid's self concept, especially when the process entails a "break them down, build 'em back up to desired specs" modality ... is never safe.

Put that process into the context of a dearth of experienced therapeutic personnel doing the breaking down, not to mention the "Lord of the Flies" milieu (peer culture), all driven by a righteous agenda of "save the kids at any cost" (the ends justify the means), and you have a diabolical stew of thought coercion and thought reform.

This is not just "a few rotten apples." This is the underlying premise of the whole industry.

Whatever happened to, "First, do no harm?"

[Anonymous]

That is actually a valid point.  The programs of today dont try to drive a wedge between the kid and his/her family.  

Wrong.  As of today I know of one kid not allowed to speak to a parent at all.  You've said not to criticize the entire industry due to a few "rotten apples" (people who kill kids through negligence or abuse are worse than rotten apples), and then you make a broad statement about the whole industry?  "The programs of today" include all in operation, including your "rotten apples".  Not very logical.

[Whooter]

That is actually a valid point.  The programs of today dont try to drive a wedge between the kid and his/her family.  

Wrong.  As of today I know of one kid not allowed to speak to a parent at all.  You've said not to criticize the entire industry due to a few "rotten apples" (people who kill kids through negligence or abuse are worse than rotten apples), and then you make a broad statement about the whole industry?  "The programs of today" include all in operation, including your "rotten apples".  Not very logical.

So as a minimum what we know is that not all programs are alike.  There are programs which work with kids and families to bring them closer together,my daughter being an example and thousands of others.  
I know a child who was abused by their parents but I dont dislike "all" parents because of it Nor do I feel "all" kids should be taken away from their families because of this one event.