John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org

[Troll Control]

What does Dave Marcus have to do with John Reuben's son killing himself after attending ASR?  I believe he was there at the same time as Marcus.  That makes two kids during Marcus' stay at ASR that ended up killing themselves.  I wonder how many more of that ASR class are dead?

[Whooter]

What does Dave Marcus have to do with John Reuben's son killing himself after attending ASR?  I believe he was there at the same time as Marcus.  That makes two kids during Marcus' stay at ASR that ended up killing themselves.  I wonder how many more of that ASR class are dead?

I think Dave Marcus might have had something to do with it (you are pretty smart).  Maybe all the kids died after leaving ASR.  I think if they all died we could safely assume it was the programs fault,  Wouldnt have to wait for a long term study, peer reviewed, clinical and independently conducted over a period of 10 years to satisfy our requirements.
I think this Dave Marcus thing is the tie in we have been looking for.

[Troll Control]

I'm not looking for a 'tie in' of any sort.  The Marcus book has been discussed in detail for years here and everyone agrees it's a shill piece bought and paid for by Aspen Education which now hires Marcus to do lectures and facilitate groups of some sort.  

What's clear is that Marcus is paid by Aspen and that all of the kids he followed failed, with one ending up dead.  Marcus I guess is the 'tie in' to Aspen's abject failure rate, 100% in the case of the kids Marcus watched.

[Whooter]

I'm not looking for a 'tie in' of any sort.  The Marcusbook has been discussed in detail for years here and everyone agrees it's a shill piece bought and paid for by Aspen Education which now hires Marcus to do lectures and facilitate groups of some sort.  

What's clear is that Marcus is paid by Aspen and that all of the kids he followed failed, with one ending up dead.  Marcus I guess is the 'tie in' to Aspen's abject failure rate, 100% in the case of the kids Marcus watched.

Exactly, that is why it is important for people to read the Book!!  To get a first hand account of what it is like inside these evil places.  If we can get people to just read it then that would be getting the word out.

Then they can google his name and find out how he is tied in with Aspen... its all great stuff!!

[Troll Control]

I wonder how Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

[Whooter]

I wonder how Dave Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

These are very good points.  I think this is why the book has been so successful.  Everyone likes to read about scandal and the next program to be exposed.  Thebook was heart churning and I couldnt put it down.  I dont know how any of the kids survived?  I guess that is why they call them survivors.

[Anonymous]

At what point does this asshole's flogging of his butt buddy's book become commercial spam/flooding?

[Whooter]

I wonder how Dave Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

These are very good points.  I think this is why the book has been so successful.  Everyone likes to read about scandal and the next program to be exposed.  Thebook was heart churning and I couldnt put it down.  I dont know how any of the kids survived?  I guess that is why they call them survivors.

Any book to be successful has to have at least one death in it.  So I would say that the death aspect of it is what makes it a good book.  I was going nuts trying to figure out which one of them died.  I couldnt put it down ... was it the "Southern girl"'  or "the self-destructive son of teachers" or "the black kid from a tough New York neighborhood" or "the high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother".  I wont tell you which one but it definitely fooled me.

You can catch the book here:
Dave Marcus

[Troll Control]

I wonder how Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

I agree wholeheartedly.  This industry survives on anecdotes of "success" but they really don't deliver any quantifiable results.  They practice pseudo-therapy and publish quasi-scientific "research" which consists of surveys of cherry-picked samples to claim "success."  In reality, they offer no proof, or even any quantifiable evidence, that programs do any good for any person.  Great post.

[Whooter]

I wonder how Dave Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

These are very good points.  I think this is why the book has been so successful.  Everyone likes to read about scandal and the next program to be exposed.  Thebook was heart churning and I couldnt put it down.  I dont know how any of the kids survived?  I guess that is why they call them survivors.

Any book to be successful has to have at least one death in it.  So I would say that the death aspect of it is what makes it a good book.  I was going nuts trying to figure out which one of them died.  I couldnt put it down ... was it the "Southern girl"'  or "the self-destructive son of teachers" or "the black kid from a tough New York neighborhood" or "the high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother".  I wont tell you which one but it definitely fooled me.

You can catch the book here:
Dave Marcus

I have to admit that the book was a page turner.  I gave it to a friend and they couldnt put it down either.  I thought it was the "Girl from Florida".  My friend thought it was the "Black kid from New York".

[AuntieEm2]

You couldn't wait to find out which kid dies? That's sick.Truly, deeply, sick.

[Troll Control]

I wonder how Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

I agree wholeheartedly.  This industry survives on anecdotes of "success" but they really don't deliver any quantifiable results.  They practice pseudo-therapy and publish quasi-scientific "research" which consists of surveys of cherry-picked samples to claim "success."  In reality, they offer no proof, or even any quantifiable evidence, that programs do any good for any person.  Great post.

Well, I certainly see your point.  Why is it that after 30 or more years of this industry that there has never been a clinical trial?  Obviously, if the industry players thought it would help their claims, it would have been done long ago.  Since they know it will undermine their business, they don't allow it.

[Anonymous]

Funny thing, I read Dave Marcus's book and noticed that the student who died was not part of the four featured in his book.  There was a student from that group who did die but not one of the four.  It amazes me how you all talk thoughtfully about a book which most of you have never read or even held in your hands.  And it is general knowledge that ASR does not even use the program mentioned in that book.   And no, I do not work for ASR though I am in the field.

[Troll Control]

Funny thing, I read Dave Marcus's book and noticed that the student who died was not part of the four featured in his book.  There was a student from that group who did die but not one of the four.  It amazes me how you all talk thoughtfully about a book which most of you have never read or even held in your hands.  And it is general knowledge that ASR does not even use the program mentioned in that book.   And no, I do not work for ASR though I am in the field.

One of the book's subjects did indeed die.  After the book was written, but dead nonetheless.  And you're saying another kid died also?  So 2 kids from "peer group 2" died then?  How many in the peer group?  10?  So, 20% of the kids at ASR at the time ended up dead?  SCARY.

So, if ASR doesn't use the program in the book, the author was making it all up?  Lying?

[Whooter]

I wonder how Marcus feels now after learning that all four of "his kids" at ASR failed with one ending up dead?  Even though it's a small sample, it tells us that ASR has a 100% failure rate and a 25% death rate.  I think a bigger. less biased sample would make these numbers go even higher (Marcus' subjects were hand-picked by Aspen based on the probablility odf success).  Funny how they picked their sample to prove effectiveness and it proves the exact opposite.  Too bad nobody is allowed to do a clinical trial on ASR.  If it were allowed, there would be no more denying Aspen's utter failure to help any kids.

I agree wholeheartedly.  This industry survives on anecdotes of "success" but they really don't deliver any quantifiable results.  They practice pseudo-therapy and publish quasi-scientific "research" which consists of surveys of cherry-picked samples to claim "success."  In reality, they offer no proof, or even any quantifiable evidence, that programs do any good for any person.  Great post.

Well, I certainly see your point.  Why is it that after 30 or more years of this industry that there has never been a clinical trial?  Obviously, if the industry players thought it would help their claims, it would have been done long ago.  Since they know it will undermine their business, they don't allow it.

If there were a need it would have been done.  But the industry expanded by an order of magnitude over the past decades.  Why would anyone want to spend money on clinical trials?
Would you call DSS to come over to your house to inspect how you are raising your kids?  Would you want them to perform a clinical trial to see if you are doing a successful job?  Not punishing too much or too little?  I dont think so.  There are over 500 programs today... with only a 100 graduating each year thats 50,000 kids a year coming out of programs.
How many do you think dont do well?  The success rate is dam near six sigma 99.99995%.

If the business is doing well and thousands of kids are getting the help they need every year why muck it all up?
Think about it from a business perspective?  Most people wouldnt toss money after a clinical trial to prove what they already know works well.