Troubled Parent Industry

[TTP]

You know...I have read and read..and read some more on these forums and have come to one conclusion

There needs to be a industry created for "Troubled Parents"   I think ALL parents should stay a week or so in the facility they have so carefully chosen for their son/daughther.  I am sure it would be an enlightening experience for ALL of them.  That should be a pre-requisite for any parent contemplating "placement" outside the home!  HEAR THAT ED CON'S

When did parents stop being parents?  When did farming out kids like chattel become acceptable if they are INCONVENIENT?  When we got too busy to handle our core family needs or when we put our own selfish wants and desires ABOVE those that we chose to bring into this world?

A psychiatrist once told me once once that the "issues of the children are merely the unresolved issues of the parents!"  At the time, I felt stunned, but the more I thought about it, the more dead on that one sentence told me.

Don't anyone jump on me for coming in here out of the blue and suggest such an audacious industry - PARENTS LEARNING TO BE PARENTS and NOT their kid's friend. :deal:

[TheWho]

Parents would probably do pretty well.  They are use to understanding and following rules no matter how silly and most parents live a very structured life…. Up at 6:00, shower, put on silly shirt and tie or uniform, drive to work, attend scheduled meetings, be politically correct around certain people etc.

I think the parents may have difficulty in expressing their feelings and shortcomings in front of a group of people they don’t know.  But after that hurdle most parents may find it refreshing having their meals made for them, study about new things in school and work on issues that will make them a better person.

As far as parents stop being parents.  This started to occur in the 1960’s and 70’s when both parents started entering the workforce leaving an empty house for Johnny and Sally to come home to (latchkey generation) and the expansion of the daycare system (child institutions or gulags as many here call them).  Children were receiving structure at school but none at home.  The void between school and parents being home became larger and larger.  When these time periods started to exceed 3 hours a day these children started having higher levels of behavioral issues and experiencing higher rates of depression and lower levels of self-esteem than other students.  Kids were heating up their own dinners and family meal time was becoming obsolete.  The kids began to enjoy this down time and some would fall into rejecting the structure they were receiving at school and heading down an individual path of doing what ever they pleased.  By the time the parents were able to get a handle on what was going on the child rejected the parents authority and they had a mess on their hands.

There are options of one parent dropping out of the work force but this may be impossible since most have built their lifestyle on two incomes and could not incur the debt or step down.  They mental health and public school industry has been slow to offer local solutions and insurance companies have rejected all attempts to expand their 30 day treatment coverage.  So the next step goes from 30 day treatment all the way to 16 months – 3 years with virtually no medium ground.  Most residential treatments are not close to home.  So we can see that the parents have few options to choose from.  It is fascinating to watch this effect progress.  Nationalizing medicine may someday provide options for families seeking local solution which are greater than 30 days but not long term residential treatment.

NeilW

[Antigen]

Jump on you? Not at all. The term "Troubled Parent Industry" is already in play. This industry always has been all about the parents. If you look at the kids who land up in it, they're not really any different from the ones who don't. Some have serious issues, most don't, just like the general population. Unlike the general population, most (if not all) kids who come through the industry come out of it with a whole set of new and/or exacerbated issues to deal with, not the least of them being trust and abandonment issues.  Those who don't usually just figure things out. It's part of growing up.

The kids have no say so whatever. Most of the time they don't even know they're going anywhere till a couple of thugs show up in the wee hours to drag them out of bed. They don't write the checks, either. The parents do.

Look at the marketing. It's all about the parents. Doesn't matter what hangups most bother them, from drugs (the big favorite in the `70's - early `80's) to non Christian beliefs to sexual deviance (i.e. deviance from whatever the parents are comfortable with) to ... well, you name it. There's a program to treat it. Even though the methods employed are pretty nearly identical on a primary level, the window dressing is geared to whatever might impress the parents. Some promise to whip the fear of God into the kid, others use lingo and devices ripped off from native American lore, others are steeped in Stepcraft affect while still others pretend it's the fresh air and good clean outdoor living that does the trick.

It's all stone soup. They all employ the same basic method:

Robert Jay Lifton was one of the early psychologists to study brainwashing and mind control. He called the method used thought reform, and offered the following eight methods that are used to change people's minds.

Milieu control

All communication with outside world is limited, either being strictly filtered or completely cut off. Whether it is a monastery or a behind-closed-doors cult, isolation from the ideas, examples and distractions of the outside world turns the individuals attention to the only remaining form of stimulation, which is the ideology that is being inculcated in them.

This even works at the intrapersonal level, and individuals are discouraged from thinking incorrect thoughts, which may be termed evil, selfish, immoral and so on.

Mystical manipulation

A part of the teaching is that the group has a higher purpose than others outside the group. This may be altruistic, such as saving the world or helping people in need. It may also be selfish, for example that group members will be saved when others outside the group will perish.

All things are then attributed and linked to this higher purpose. Coincidences (which actually may be deliberately engineered) are portrayed as symbolic events. Attention is given to the problems of out-group people and attributed to their not being in the group. Revelations are attributed to spiritual causes.

This association of events is used as evidence that the group truly is special and exclusive.

Confession

Individuals are encouraged to confess past 'sins' (as defined by the group). This creates a tension between the person's actions and their stated belief that the action is bad, particularly if the statement is made publicly. The consistency principle thus leads the person to fully adopt the belief that the sin is bad and to distance themselves from repeating it.

Discussion of inner fears and anxieties, as well as confessing sins is exposing vulnerabilities and requires the person to place trust in the group and hence bond with them. When we bond with others, they become our friends, and we will tend to adopt their beliefs more easily.

This effect may be exaggerated with intense sessions where deep thoughts and feelings are regularly surfaced. This also has the effect of exhausting people, making them more open to suggestion.
Self-sanctification through purity

Individuals are encouraged to constantly push towards an ultimate and unattainable perfection. This may be rewarded with promotion within the group to higher levels, for example by giving them a new status name (acolyte, traveller, master, etc.) or by giving them new authority within the group.

The unattainability of the ultimate perfection is used to induce guilt and show the person to be sinful and hence sustain the requirement for confession and obedience to those higher than them in the groups order of perfection.

Not being perfect may be seen as deserving of punishment, which may be meted out by the higher members of the group or even by the person themselves, who are taught that such atonement and self-flagellation is a valuable method of reaching higher levels of perfection.

Aura of sacred science

The beliefs and regulations of the group are framed as perfect, absolute and non-negotiable. The dogma of the group is presented as scientifically correct or otherwise unquestionable.

Rules and processes are therefore to be followed without question, and any transgression is a sin and hence requires atonement or other forms of punishment, as does consideration of any alternative viewpoints.

Loaded language

New words and language are created to explain the new and profound meanings that have been discovered. Existing words are also hijacked and given new and different meaning.

This is particularly effective due to the way we think a lot though language. The consequence of this is that the person who controls the meaning of words also controls how people think. In this way, black-and-white thinking is embedded in the language, such that wrong-doers are framed as terrible and evil, whilst those who do right (as defined by the group) are perfect and marvellous.

The meaning of words are kept hidden both from the outside world, giving a sense of exclusivity. The meaning of special words may also be revealed in careful illuminatory rituals, where people who are being elevated within the order are given the power of understanding this new language.

Doctrine over person

The importance of the group is elevated over the importance of the individual in all ways. Along with this comes the importance of the the group's ideas and rules over personal beliefs and values.

Past experiences, beliefs and values can all thus be cast as being invalid if they conflict with group rules. In fact this conflict can be used as a reason for confession of sins. Likewise, the beliefs, values and words of those outside the group are equally invalid.

Dispensed existence

There is a very sharp line between the group and the outside world. Insiders are to be saved and elevated, whilst outsiders are doomed to failure and loss (which may be eternal).

Who is an outsider or insider is chosen by the group. Thus, any person within the group may be damned at any time. There are no rights of membership except, perhaps, for the leader.

People who leave the group are singled out as particularly evil, weak, lost or otherwise to be despised or pitied. Rather than being ignored or hidden, they are used as examples of how anyone who leaves will be looked down upon and publicly denigrated.

People thus have a constant fear of being cast out, and consequently work hard to be accepted and not be ejected from the group. Outsiders who try to persuade the person to leave are doubly feared.

Dispensation also goes into all aspects of living within the group. Any and all aspects of existence within the group is subject to scrutiny and control. There is no privacy and, ultimately, no free will.

That's the whole program, no matter how you dress it up.

[Antigen]

Guest/who, here's an interesting thought that occurs to me while reading your post. It's clear to many around here, based on your language as well as your pretzel logic, that you are among the most thoroughly indoctrinated people around here. I know, some are convinced that you're doing it all for the money. And I have little doubt that there's some money into the mix. But that doesn't explain it all very satisfactorily to me. There are other ways to make money and most people will gravitate to a profession or vocation that they enjoy or find worthwhile on some level.

You start out in the above post attributing the cause of societal breakdown and troubled youth to the progressive institutionalization of child rearing and dissolution of families. I happen to agree with that. But then you propose as a solution further institutionalization of child rearing through socialized medicine? It doesn't make any sense, who!

Here's my often stated answer to the frequently asked question "Well, what do you propose as an alternative?" Raise your own damned kids! If you want your kid to grow up to be a secure, competent, successful adult then keep them around. Don't segregate them into herds of children tended by temporary keepers. Don't work two jobs and hire a nanny or sign them up for a bunch of after-school and summer programs. If you're short of money, start a small business and employ them in it.

[TTP]

You start out in the above post attributing the cause of societal breakdown and troubled youth to the progressive institutionalization of child rearing and dissolution of families. I happen to agree with that. But then you propose as a solution further institutionalization of child rearing through socialized medicine? It doesn't make any sense, who! [quote) Who (not that who) suggested child rearing through socialized medicine?  Not me!!! [color)

Here's my often stated answer to the frequently asked question "Well, what do you propose as an alternative?" Raise your own damned kids! If you want your kid to grow up to be a secure, competent, successful adult then keep them around. Don't segregate them into herds of children tended by temporary keepers. Don't work two jobs and hire a nanny or sign them up for a bunch of after-school and summer programs. If you're short of money, start a small business and employ them in it.

 I am 100% with you on that....RAISE your KID...novel approach for those "would be excuses" for parents parading around!  BTW - I AM a parent

Tried to reply using quotes, and colours, but messed it all up.  I will get my bearings!

[TTP]

not "the infamous WHO"  

I just have a kid who is heading straight for the train and I am doing everything I can to prevent the impending collisions.

[Anonymous]

I just have a kid who is heading straight for the train and I am doing everything I can to prevent the impending collisions.

Get him to read Fornits. Out loud if need be. Nightmares are cheap here. He won't start being nice because you want him to, but odds are he will start rethinking actions with a nice, fat dose of applied fear and paranoia.

[TTP]

Good Advice

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Good Advice

Thanks

he'll grow out of it. Human beings have an innate desire to be happy and "successful" (socially dominant). What seems so horrifying: taking drugs, having sex, skipping school, is simply the process of child becoming an adult. The desire to do these things and carrying out these desires is what SHOULD occur. The pathologizing of normal behavior is a sociolgical tragedy.

[TTP]

Are we GOOD parents?  Do we set a good example?  Just little thought here and there


Really dig down deep before you answer that question.

[TheWho]

Guest/who, here's an interesting thought that occurs to me while reading your post. It's clear to many around here, based on your language as well as your pretzel logic, that you are among the most thoroughly indoctrinated people around here. I know, some are convinced that you're doing it all for the money. And I have little doubt that there's some money into the mix. But that doesn't explain it all very satisfactorily to me. There are other ways to make money and most people will gravitate to a profession or vocation that they enjoy or find worthwhile on some level.

Unless I was a full time Educational consultant I couldn’t imagine making enough money refering in this industry to sustain a living.  

You start out in the above post attributing the cause of societal breakdown and troubled youth to the progressive institutionalization of child rearing and dissolution of families. I happen to agree with that. But then you propose as a solution further institutionalization of child rearing through socialized medicine? It doesn't make any sense, who!

Let me go back and reread my post... Well I guess I did say that.  My first solution was to have one parent drop out of the work force but many parents just cant do this easily enough without selling the house, selling a car and moving into a condo or step down neighborhood. But I just don’t see many doing this.. should they?  I think so, but without counselling or advice I don’t think many parents would think of this (maybe because they subconsciously don’t want to give up the lifestyle, I don’t know, but I don’t think this is a big reason, most parents would do anything for their kids).  When we depend on others (non family members......for daycare, public school, neighbours) then it is natural to seek a solution with others also and not to look inward when in a crisis.    This would have been the natural next step 75 years ago, but it just isn’t today.
I think what I am trying to say is that I am not proposing that further institutionalization is the best solution, but rather it is the best logical next step in our society and the way it is structured for parents to raise kids.  I would argue it is just out of convenience.

Here's my often stated answer to the frequently asked question "Well, what do you propose as an alternative?" Raise your own damned kids! If you want your kid to grow up to be a secure, competent, successful adult then keep them around. Don't segregate them into herds of children tended by temporary keepers. Don't work two jobs and hire a nanny or sign them up for a bunch of after-school and summer programs. If you're short of money, start a small business and employ them in it.

That decision needs to be made before people have kids.  People need to structure their lives around one income and live within the budget.  Its natural today to form a life style made up of two incomes and decide to have kids and see daycare as an acceptable way to keep you both employed with the thought that you can provide your children with much more things or stuff, better life!.

Whats better..... dropping off your kid at soccer practice in a 12 year old dodge van, faded socks, wide eyed, a little apprehensive  or dropping your kid off in a dark blue late model Beemer with white socks right out of the package who fits right in with the other kids.
 
The kid in the van probably cant wait to get home and tell his family about the game and see his dad after work and the kid in the beemer wants to go to a friends house instead of going home because his parents are out again.  But who knows this?  Besides being taught through modelling from you own parents how does a person know the best way to structure a family environment?  How do we get the word out?

Can a nuclear family just transform itself that quickly and go back to the values of the pre 60’s without any training or counselling?

Remembering back to my circumstances my first knee jerk reaction was to take my daughter to Maine for 6 months where we had a place in a town with a winter population of 18 people where I could just get her away from all the negative stimuli that was affecting her and allow us time with just her and I.  But even though I thought the problem could be resolved by bringing my daughter closer the thought of having an industry which specializes in helping kids out of situations like these I felt the 6 months in Maine might be short-changing her, I am not an experienced therapist.

So I think the parental instincts are there but the solutions available (and the ones being marketed) are all outside of the family.

[TTP]

Neil W or NeilW...either way.  You effectively cancel each other out and I will not respond in any way to your posts from either or you - not out of disrespect. I just don't have the kind of time needed to respond to your posts.

[Anonymous]

Then don't. Get your kid to read his posts instead.

And just remember, TTP's kid- this guy wants to OWN you, and I don't mean "ownage".

[TTP]

Please explain this to me.  You have a kid..that is a commitment - for LIFE.  The law may deem them legal but you will always be morally responsible for them.  We have to be able to do better than THIS???

[TTP]

He DOES read fornits from time to time