What brand of cigarette do you smoke?

[Anonymous]

Why won't you say how much money you got?

Various reasons which will be revealed in time.  What's it to you?

Well you just said to me several times I could find out this information by reading the thread, which you linked and reading the judgment. I did both, and couldn't find it. Now you're saying this information is NOT revealed anywhere, AND you can't tell anyone? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The judgement says that we paid our attorneys 30k dollars for a retainer.  That's all we get back.  The attorneys get teh rest as it is, (surprise) an award for attorney's fees (wow.  i fucking wonder what that could be)  Your questions as to how much we have collected out of that judgment are and what our intents are, however, not public for the time being.  Why so interested?

Because what other poster on this forum has collected almost $200k from a program they went to? I'm curious how much bring-home money you actually got out of the deal?

[Anonymous]

yet somehow I am getting in your business.

Is there any other way to see this post:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27212&start=15#p328872

You came to your own conclusions beforehand, prompting me to write this post:

I think you are addicted to it, and will make non-logical statements based in denial. Still waiting...

I still think that. there is no logical argument as to why smoking is a good idea. The benefits are marginal at best, the cost is your health and maybe eventually even your life. Simple economics, the value of the benefits you listed, compared to the rarity of your only (depending on religion) life, the two are non-comparable. I'm sorry you feel a victim of my "judgment" from that sentence, but that's the way I feel. You keep trying to portray me as trying to harass you, change you, judge you, but that isn't what is happening. You don't have to view every argument through the program lens. I'm pretty sure you called me an" asshole" a few posts back, and said you'd blow smoke in my face if we were talking in person, yet you suggest that I am the judgmental one?  Come on, get real.

[psy]

I'm not sure how I'm "judging you"

The whole accusations of addiction and denial bit sort of gave it away.

From your own source

Although the number of smokers is decreasing, smoking still accounts for roughly 1 in 7 deaths in the United States (1 in 3 between the ages of 35 and 70). And tobacco — particularly when smoked — is highly addictive.

If you smoke cigarettes regularly, you are addicted to them. That is a scientific fact. You already admitted if you quit cold turkey, you would suffer through withdrawal symptoms. That means (guess what?), you guessed it, you are addicted to cigarettes.

I already discussed the differences between the definitions of addiction.  It's an ambiguous term that even the medical establishment avoids.

When someone says they look forward to getting terminal lung cancer,

And I said this where?  I never said look forward to.  You're distorting my words and seeing what you want.  I said there are upsides to even the worst things.  Only somebody who sees the world in black and white denies that.  There *are* opportunities that arise from terminal illnesses that would otherwise never be possible.  I'm not saying I want to get cancer...  all I'm saying is if it happens, I'll take the good with the bad and look on the bright side of things, like I try to do with many things in life.

I'm also not very convinced that smoking increases probability to the point where it is a guarantee.  There is such a thing as acceptable risk.  What is the increased probability of cancer for a half-pack a day smoker compared to a non-smoker?  Do the research.

so they can finally fulfill their desires which they are too afraid to do now, as an argument to promote smoking, yeah. That's 100% denial right there.

And where is the science saying that denial is a symptom of addiction?   The only folk who believe that crap are stepcraft practitioners.

You just listed off trivial reasons as to why it's okay to take a product that is addictive and deadly. If you weren't addicted to cigarettes, you would never be making those arguments...

But femanon doesn't smoke, and she made similar arguments.  Maybe she's a "dry" smoker and needs some "spiritual" healing from the flying spaghetti monster.

That's like a drunk saying drinking is good because the food they serve is good in jail, for when they get arrested for DUI. Doesn't make a lot of sense right? But that's what you sound like right now.

To you, because of your biases, prejudice, and contempt prior to investigation.

[psy]

I still think that. there is no logical argument as to why smoking is a good idea.

And you're free to have that opinion, which is why you don't smoke.  I disagree, which is why I do.  The details, again, are irrelevant.  It's a personal choice and no matter how much you disagree, you have no right to tell me what to put in my own body.  I *own* my self.  I own my body.  It's mine, not yours, and not the governments (even on your behalf).  At the beginning of this thread, you argued that tobacco shoudl be illegal.  Well.  Were that the case, I would still smoke on principle and I would do it publicly and encourage others to disobey as well.  In France, smoking bans handed down by the EU were treated this way.  In Ireland, it was the same thing.  Government cannot take away liberty...  that's an illusion.  People allow government to take away their liberties... that's the reality.  A law cannot be enforced if enough people openly disobey.  When people are complicit, they're as bad as if they're the oppresors themselves... and moral busybodies can be FAR worse than robber barons.

"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his
cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our
own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."---C. S. Lewis

The benefits are marginal at best, the cost is your health and maybe eventually even your life. Simple economics, the value of the benefits you listed

I could have listed more, and quality of life is not measured with simple economics.

compared to the rarity of your only (depending on religion) life, the two are non-comparable. I'm sorry you feel a victim of my "judgment" from that sentence, but that's the way I feel. You keep trying to portray me as trying to harass you, change you, judge you, but that isn't what is happening. You don't have to view every argument through the program lens. I'm pretty sure you called me an" asshole" a few posts back, and said you'd blow smoke in my face if we were talking in person, yet you suggest that I am the judgmental one?  Come on, get real.

Well.  You call it like you see it and call me an addict in denial and I'll call it like I see it and call you an asshole.  Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

[Anonymous]

It's funny. You claim that everyone else is judgemental, but you really need to take a look at yourself. I never said I was part of AA in any way, yet now you seem bent on making me out as some kind of "stepcraft practioner" because I think smoking (which is proven that it kills you) is stupid. OK, if that makes you feel better then think whatever you need to.

It's appears as if you have some need to portray yourself as a victim. Well guess what, you aren't a victim of me. I am not a part of any organization that tried to "brainwash you" (like when you said you'd rather be burned at the stake), I am just someone who thinks smoking is stupid. The arguments to support it are stupid, and the only people who believe them are those who are addicted and in denial. Oh no "addicted" and "denial" are on the no-no word list, which triggers psy's AA-centered paranoia.  

But whatever you got to believe, right? No matter what you want to believe you aren't a victim of anybody but your own unwillingness to make a logical choice. Is life important to you? Then you should quit smoking right now. If it's not, and you think getting terminal cancer "has its benefits", then keep on smoking. It won't effect my life, and when you lie dying in a hospital bed I will have long forgotten about this conversation. But maybe then you will remember it, and wish you had heeded the obvious advice (even if it's tainted with [common] naughty words that AA also uses) to quit smoking. Besides, don't you want to live long enough to spend all that cash you got from Benchmark? When do you leave on your extended vacation in the bahamas?  :deal:

[Anonymous]

And you're free to have that opinion, which is why you don't smoke.  I disagree, which is why I do.  The details, again, are irrelevant.  It's a personal choice and no matter how much you disagree, you have no right to tell me what to put in my own body.  I *own* my self.  I own my body.  It's mine, not yours, and not the governments (even on your behalf).  At the beginning of this thread, you argued that tobacco shoudl be illegal.  Well.  Were that the case, I would still smoke on principle and I would do it publicly and encourage others to disobey as well.  In France, smoking bans handed down by the EU were treated this way.  In Ireland, it was the same thing.  Government cannot take away liberty...  that's an illusion.  People allow government to take away their liberties... that's the reality.  A law cannot be enforced if enough people openly disobey.  When people are complicit, they're as bad as if they're the oppresors themselves... and moral busybodies can be FAR worse than robber barons.

"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his
cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our
own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."---C. S. Lewis

Thanks for stating the obvious. Yes you can smoke, and nobody is trying to stop you. I think it's stupid, that's what I posted on this thread. If you feel the need to declare your freedom from my imaginary reach into your life, more power to you.

I could have listed more, and quality of life is not measured with simple economics.

Please, list more "benefits" of smoking cigarettes. It was... education... to hear the "benefit" of terminal cancer has on one's skydiving agenda.

Well.  You call it like you see it and call me an addict in denial and I'll call it like I see it and call you an asshole.  Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

Well you see the thing is, I don't care if you think I'm an asshole. Please, judge away. It doesn't matter to me. The only relevancy this discussion has to either of our lives, REALLY, is that if you continue to smoke, it can and most likely will kill you. Besides that, none of this really matters. I hope you don't think by smoking you are proving a point against people like me, who are willing to tell you how stupid giving up your health for smoking is. If that reminds you of AA and makes you angry then please stop reading this thread, because the last thing I want to do is implant even more devious denial-induced thoughts into your cigarette addicted mind.  "I'll show that step craft practicing asshole, I'll smoke a WHOLE pack today!", really it's not necessary. I truly hope you do quit, because any life is precious.. especially your own. EVEN if you think I'm an ASSHOLE, LIFE is important. SAVE YOURS TODAY. STOP SMOKING.

[psy]

Besides, don't you want to live long enough to spend all that cash you got from Benchmark? When do you leave on your extended vacation in the bahamas?  :deal:

I wrote above:

The judgement says that we paid our attorneys 30k dollars for a retainer. That's all we get back. The attorneys get the rest as it is, (surprise) an award for attorney's fees (wow. i fucking wonder what that could be) Your questions as to how much we have collected out of that judgment are and what our intents are, however, not public for the time being.

Anyway...  I'm done.  I've proved my point.  You seem to think anybody who denies a problem has a problem and anybody who smokes is sick and in denial.  Whatever.

[Anonymous]

So you personally get $30,000 out of the $187,000 judgement, is that right?

[Anonymous]

Your questions as to how much we have collected out of that judgment are and what our intents are, however, not public for the time being.

This is what is confusing. It says you got 30k back, but then says how much you collected is not being made public. I don't get it, did you get more than just the 30k back or something?

[psy]

Your questions as to how much we have collected out of that judgment are and what our intents are, however, not public for the time being.

This is what is confusing. It says you got 30k back, but then says how much you collected is not being made public. I don't get it, did you get more than just the 30k back or something?

Look. I'm sorry, but I just can't talk about this particular subject in more depth at the moment. I will elaborate in time and things will be made clear.

[Anonymous]

You seem to think anybody who denies a problem has a problem and anybody who smokes is sick and in denial.  Whatever.

Addicted, and in denial. Sick? Well... yes, if they keep smoking.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

If I may be welcomed to mediate here, I think the two sides of this argument are based on unrelated points.

Guest or multiple guests, Want to know why people choose to smoke despite overwhelming evidence that smoking cigarettes can lead to illness and death. This is not necessarily a logical question, because the fact is people don't smoke because the benefits outweigh the risks, simply put, they enjoy taking that risk. The point that smoking causes an addiction is really quite relative, because realistically if a person wants to stop smoking, they can. These people choose to smoke and it is their right to make that choice. The fact that that choice doesn't make sense to you is valid, but because the argument is to smoke or not to smoke it becomes an issue of choice, not reasoning.

I don't think that Psy is in denial about how smoking is hazardous, however he reserves the right to do as he pleases as long as he does so without hurting anyone else. His point is on his freedom of choice and that people who cling to the anti-smoking campaign exert a pushy judgmental attitude about other peoples personal choices. Its really an underlying issue, and we could be substituting any other substance or risque act as the subject matter here but it all boils down to the fact people tend to get pissed off when people tell them to stop doing something that is their personal choice to do so.

For instance, if i wanted to go get "Shitting Dick Nipples" tattooed to my face I'm sure you would have many reasons as to why that isnt a good idea, but it is simply not your business to tell me what I should and shouldn't do. Maybe my lifestyle is different from yours and while you would never get "Shitting Dick Nipples" Tattooed to your face, (for obvious reasons) The fact that I would be willing to take that risk is my choice and mine alone. Just the same, if you are a male I'm sure you probably look at porn, If I stepped in and told you how horrible the porn industry is and how immoral and gross it is to be looking at that don't you think I would be crossing the line by judging you and your personal choices?

[Anonymous]

Here's a great discussion, over 500 posts about smoking or not smoking... rights, laws passed etc...

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wish/ ... QLC8RM6H6Q

[Froderik]

You don't have to view every argument through the program lens.

Not to point the finger at Psy per se, but I see this approach to discussion as detrimental; it is better to be objective.

[Froderik]

its just a habit of lifestyle, most grow out of it and those that don't pay the ultimate price. In the big scheme of things, the world just has its way of weeding itself out, people die, even young and because of stupid life decisions but that's just the way population circulates itself. If we all made healthy safe decisions for our lives there would just be too many damn people, too many old people on social security and medi-cal so you healthy tax payers can just thank your lucky stars people are dying off instead of needing your tax dollars for 30 more years.

Wow, that is one of the most morbid, callous things I've ever read... and this is fornits! So you think it's a good thing that millions of people die needless deaths from one of the most addictive and deadly substances avaialble, because there would be too many old people on social security and medical? This argument is.. well.. it.. how else can I put it other than it makes *no sense whatsoever*.

How about if one of your family members dies from lung cancer, you can put "it's just a habit of lifestyle, the world was just recirculating the population" on their tombstone?

BTW-most don't grow out of it, because it's very addictive and difficult to quit. Your earlier argument was so ridiculous I didn't respond, but how about pointing out the obvious fact tobacco related health illness is the biggest expense on the taxpayer health system? That kind of cancels that argument of yours, which was basically imcomprehensible, it just seems like you want to take the opposite stance (even though it's wrong) for the sake of it. Well, that's your right.. but please try to make arguments that make some sense.

I agree, that was harsh!

Oh boo hoo. the universe is a cold hearted bitch. People die, and life goes on that is reality. Why is stating the apparent facts harsh? Do you have a hard time accepting that people die? did that hit a nerve? I wouldn't try to offend you on purpose I just have a "big picture" way of looking at things, particularly society, the world and existence. I'm not entirely a fan of deluding reality either... it just is what it is.

There are some things we can change, but the constant in life is that people will always find a way to fuck shit up.

Oh boo schmoo, yes I know. You're preaching to the choir, you don't have to tell me about death, I'm from fucking Baltimore.  :poison:  :rofl:

Yes, who cares, just let them die, you say. Oh no, that statement isn't harsh at all! Your outlook seems defeatist to me, not to mention kind of cold and fucked up....existentialist, you could say....?

No nerves to strike, and I'm not here to "get offended" (sheesh) or to judge you (hell, I've been there too) just an observation is all...

If people wanna smoke, fine. I have no prob with it, but I'll tell them I think it's stupid if I care about them. Then they can go and fuckin' well smoke til they drop if they want, it's on them!