the dangers of equating AA and programs

[Anne Bonney]

there are some striking similarities that make quite a few of us extremely uncomfortable.

Few is the keyword here everybody. There is like five survivors posting on fornits, most of whom were in programs years or even decades ago. If anything it shows that programs are safe, evident by the relatively dismal percentage of people who google "program abused me" and find this website. What's five out of 100,000 percentage wise?....

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself.

[Anne Bonney]

While AA and programs are not exactly alike,

wow, that's QUITE an understatment. I am sorry. I find this minimization of torment and the shocking ignorance /stupidity behind it offensive.

Maybe "all the AAers" don't want to talk about whether or not they are cult members for the same reason you don't want to talk about whether or not you are a druggie: Because the suggestion is rude, presumptuous and just idiotic.

And notice the troll is bumping this thread? yeah, he's doing that for a reason.

Again....whatever you gotta tell yourself.  It ain't just a couple of people and it ain't just a few, benign similarities.

[Anonymous]

While AA and programs are not exactly alike,

wow, that's QUITE an understatment. I am sorry. I find this minimization of torment and the shocking ignorance /stupidity behind it offensive.

Maybe "all the AAers" don't want to talk about whether or not they are cult members for the same reason you don't want to talk about whether or not you are a druggie: Because the suggestion is rude, presumptuous and just idiotic.

I can help you feel better about yourself

[Anonymous]

While AA and programs are not exactly alike,

wow, that's QUITE an understatment. I am sorry. I find this minimization of torment and the shocking ignorance /stupidity behind it offensive.

Maybe "all the AAers" don't want to talk about whether or not they are cult members for the same reason you don't want to talk about whether or not you are a druggie: Because the suggestion is rude, presumptuous and just idiotic.

I can help you feel better about yourself

lol.

If a Program Parent who believes all anti-straight protesters are drug addicts is brainwashed, what are you for believing everyone who believes AA’s a benign, helpful group is a brainwashed AA member? An idiot? According to your rationale, every known cultic scholar is a brainwashed AA member. But, OK. The conspiracy goes pretty deep, right?


Wouldn't I actually have to be an alcoholic and feel benefited by AA to be part of its cult? Does it matter that I am not and I don’t? Or do you feel that I am lying about that as you “know”  my personal history? Why are you comfortable behaving in a fashion that were a PP to imitate you’d feel proved their brainwashing or stupidity?

Never mind. It’s my bad for feeling offended by people who imply programs are consensual, 1 hour a week, group meetings where groups are advised not to instruct or yell at members, but are ultimately are free to do whatever they want as there is no authority dominating them. If only your beleif was  correct. Then my arthritis wouldn't be so bad after being slaved so hard . Oh, le internet. le sigh.

[Ursus]

Some early history on the Moral Re-Armament people:

Oxford Group: a program for alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous

In Akron, Ohio, Jim Newton an Oxford Group member knew that one of Firestone's sons, Russell, was a serious alcoholic. He took him first to a drying-out clinic and then on to an Oxford Group conference in Denver. The young man gave his life to God, and thereafter enjoyed extended periods of sobriety. The family doctor called it a ‘medical miracle’. Harvey Firestone Senior was so grateful that, in January 1933, he invited Buchman and a team of sixty to conduct a ten-day campaign in Akron. They left behind them a strong functioning group which met each week in the house of T. Henry Williams, amongst whom were an Akron surgeon, Bob Smith, and his wife Anne. Bob was a secret drinker.[101]

Rowland Hazard, claimed that it was Carl Jung who caused him to seek a spiritual solution to his alcoholism, which led to Rowland joining the Oxford group. He was introduced by Shep Cornell to Cornell's friend Ebby Thacher, Ebby had a serious drinking problem. Hazard introduced Ebby to Carl Jung's theory and then to the Oxford Group. For a time Ebby took up residence at Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Rescue Mission.[102] Reverend Sam Shoemaker ran the Calvary Rescue Mission that catered mainly to saving down-and-outs and drunks. Sam Shoemaker taught the concept of God being that of one's understanding to the new inductees. [103]

Ebby Thacher, in keeping with the Oxford Teachings, needed to keep his own conversion experience real by carrying the Oxford message of salvation to others. Ebby had heard of his old drinking buddy Bill Wilson was again drinking heavily. Thacher and Cornell visited Wilson at his home and introduced him to the Oxford Group's religious conversion cure. Wilson an agnostic, was "aghast" when Thacher told him he had "got religion".[104]

A few days later, in a drunken state, Wilson went to the Calvary Rescue Mission in search of Ebby Thacher. It was there that he attended his first Oxford Group meeting and would later describe the experience: "Penitents started marching forward to the rail. Unaccountably impelled, I started too.... Soon, I knelt among the sweating, stinking penitents... Afterward, Ebby... told me with relief that I had done all right and had given my life to God."[105]The Call to the Altar did little to curb Wilson's drinking. A couple of days later, he re-admitted himself to Charles B. Towns Hospital. Wilson had been admitted to Towns hospital three times earlier between 1933 and 1934. This would be his fourth and last stay. [106]

Wilson did not obtain his spiritual awakening by his attendance at the Oxford Group. He had his "hot flash" conversion at Town's Hospital. The hospital was set up and run by Charles B. Towns and his associate Dr. Alexander Lambert, who together had concocted up a drug cocktail for the treatment of alcoholism that bordered on quackery medicine known as the The Belladonna Cure. The formula cure consisted of the two deliriants Atropa belladonna and Hyoscyamus niger, which are were known to cause hallucinations. Wilson had his "hot flash" spiritual awakening, while being treated with these drugs. He claimed to have seen a white light and when he told his attending physician, Dr. William Silkworth about his experience, he was advised not to discount it. When Wilson left the hospital he never drank again. [107].

After his release from the Hospital, Wilson attended Oxford Group meetings and went on a mission to save other alcoholics. His prospects came through Towns Hospital and the Calvary Mission. Though he was not able to keep one alcoholic sober, he found that by engaging in the activity of trying to convert others he was able to keep himself sober. It was this realization, that he needed another alcoholic to work with, that brought him into contact with Dr. Bob Smith while on a business trip in Akron Ohio. Earlier Wilson had been advised by Dr. Silkworth to change his approach and tell the alcoholics they suffered from a disease, one that could kill them, and afterward apply the Oxford Practices. The idea that alcoholism was a disease not a moral failing was different from the Oxford concept that drinking was a sin. This is what he brought to Bob Smith on their first meeting. Smith was the first alcoholic Wilson helped to sobriety. Dr. Smith and Bill W.as he was later called went on to found Alcoholics Anonymous.

Wilson later acknowledged: "The early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Group and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else."

In 1939 James Houck joined the Oxford Group and became sober on Dec. 12, one day after Wilson did.[citation needed] AA was founded on June 10, 1935, the first day of Dr. Bob's sobriety. Houck was the last surviving person to have attended Oxford Group meetings with Wilson, who died in 1971. In September 2004, at the age of 98, Houck was still active in the group, now renamed Moral Re-armament, and it was his mission to restore the Oxford Group's spiritual methods through the Back to Basics program, a twelve step program similar to A.A. Houck believed the old Oxford spiritual methods were stronger and more effective than the ones currently practiced in A.A. Houck was trying to introduce the program into the prison systems.[108]

Houcks assessment of Wilson's time in the Oxford group: He was never interested in the things we were interested in; he only wanted to talk about alcoholism; he was not interested in giving up smoking; he was a ladies man and would brag of his sexual exploits with other members, and in Houck's opinion he remained an agnostic. [109]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group