RIP - Michael Joshua Reuben

[Ursus]

Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative

Our People

Our goal is to provide a total solution to troubled teens in crisis and their families, with a methodology that incorporates both financial and emotional support throughout an 18-24 month process of evaluation, intervention and education.

The professionals and parents who make up the Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative Board of Directors and Advisory Board reflect the varied disciplines needed to facilitate our mission, and assist us in their specific areas of expertise.


Board of Directors:

John Reuben, Founder & President

• Parent of 2 troubled teens who have been in therapeutic programs
• Executive in Software Sales and Marketing for over 25 years, including the founding of a significant software enterprise

Alexander Steffan, JD, MBA; Secretary & Treasurer

• Vice President and Senior Counsel at Haemonetics

Marilyn Engelman, PhD

• Certified Educational Planner, Founder of Educational Directions
• Specializes in comprehensive educational assessments, college and secondary placement, and therapeutic placement

Corey Hicks, BA

• Chief Executive Officer of Longevity Music, LLC
• Pastor and Founder of Philips International Outreach
• Former addict and alcoholic who has been clean and sober for over 14 years

Theresa Wing Hines

• Parent of a troubled teen who is currently in a therapeutic program
• President and Owner of One Pearl, a jewelry and textile design and import company

Marie Sigman, MS

• Educational Psychologist specializing in advocacy for students with learning challenges and in transition management of young adults from high school, including college placement
• Guidance Counselor and Teacher in Sudbury Massachusetts School System for more than 30 years

Advisory Board:

Tamara A. Ancona, MA, LPC, Member IECA

• Specializes in educational options and therapeutic alternatives for struggling teens and young adults
• Founder of TAG, a Transition Aftercare Program which helps students returning from a treatment setting reintegrate with their families and communities
• Member of the American Counseling Association (ACA), Learning Disabilities Association of Georgia (LDAG) and the Licensed Professional Counselors Association - Georgia Chapter (LPCA)

Leslie S. Goldberg, MEd, CEP, Member IECA

• Founder and President of Leslie S. Goldberg & Associates, LLC – Educational Consultants
  The Goldberg Center for Educational Planning
• Provider of therapeutic and educational placement advice for over twenty years
• Certified Guidance Counselor; periodic expert witness

Adam R. Goldberg, MEd, Member IECA

• Chief Executive Officer of Leslie S. Goldberg & Associates, LLC – Educational Consultants
  The Goldberg Center for Educational Planning
• Specialist in intervention planning for teens at risk
• Board Member of Learning Disabilities Worldwide

Sharon Levy, MD, MPH

• Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
• Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research

Grant Leibersberger, MEd, MBA

• Financial Advisor who specializes in helping families finance therapeutic schools and programs
• Former Clinician and Director of an Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Program

Scott P. Sells, PhD

• Founder of the Savannah Family Institute (SFI) - http://www.difficult.net
• Author of two books: Parenting Your Out-Of-Control Teenager and Treating The Tough Adolescent

Lon Woodbury, MA, CEP, Member IECA

• Publisher of the Parent Empowerment Handbook, The Woodbury Report, and http://www.strugglingteens.com
• Prior to becoming an educational consultant, taught in the public school system, and worked with the U.S. Senate and the Executive Office of the President on public policy

Administrative:

Patricia R. Abreu, Executive Director


Copyright © 2007 Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative

[Anonymous]

oohh:

Lon Woodbury, MA, CEP, Member IECA

• Publisher of the Parent Empowerment Handbook, The Woodbury Report, and http://www.strugglingteens.com
• Prior to becoming an educational consultant, taught in the public school system, and worked with the U.S. Senate and the Executive Office of the President on public policy

[TheWho]

Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.

How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.

What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs.  Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance.  They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances.  Addiction is a progressive disease.

[Anonymous]

Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.

How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.

What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs.  Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance.  They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances.  Addiction is a progressive disease.

Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:

Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse

The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34

Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems, according to the national surveys conducted by Don Cahalan and his associates. Men often go through problem drinking periods, depending on their stage in the life cycle and the people they associate with, only to emerge from these when their life circumstances change. Incidentally, the large majority of these untreated former problem drinkers do not choose to abstain but continue drinking while diminishing or eliminating their problems. The largest group of problem drinkers is young men, but young drinkers show the highest rate of natural remission as they age.35

Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.

Nor are children of alcoholics destined to progress to alcoholism when they drink. A large, long-term study of Tecumseh, Michigan, residents conducted by epidemiologists at the University of Michigan found that children of heavy-drinking parents most frequently choose to drink moderately themselves. Although alcoholics have more alcoholic offspring than average, the researchers noted, "alcoholic parental drinking only weakly invites imitation."38 It seems that people are quite capable of learning from observing a parent's alcoholism to avoid such problems themselves. In doing so, the researchers found, children are helped when the heavy drinker is the parent of the opposite sex. In addition, there was less imitation in this study of a heavy-drinking parent when the children as adults recalled the parent as having drinking problems.39 Finally, several studies of children of alcoholics have shown that, even after they themselves develop a drinking problem, they do better in treatment aimed at moderating drinking rather than at abstinence than do other problem drinkers.40

Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.41 Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not. In the words of British physician Milton Gross, who has focused on the biological aspects of alcohol dependence:

    The foundation is set for the progression of the alcohol dependence syndrome by virtue of its biologically intensifying itself. One would think that, once caught up in the process, the individual could not be extricated. However, and for reasons poorly understood, the reality is otherwise. Many, perhaps most, do free themselves.42

A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."43 Based on his research in Australia, psychiatrist Les Drew has described alcoholism as a "self-limiting" disease, one that creates pressures for its own cure even in the absence of outside interventions."44 In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."45

Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.

[Anonymous]

Not to get into another debate about the disease model or AA, but as I discussed on another thread, the AA concept of disease is VERY different than a medical one.  The "disease" concept, as practiced by 99.99% of programs, is the AA one, and not the medical one.

this is more in line with my view on things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction

I don't wish to derail the thread, though, so if you want to discuss this, I would be happy to in a thread such as this one.

It might not be all that inappropriate, given that Michael Reuben died of a heroin overdose, if I am not mistaken.

Since his father sent him to a treatment program/teen gulag (looks like an Aspen one, given the associations), it would appear that said treatment was not based on a medical model.

In this case, the outcome was tragic, and final.

Board of Directors:

John Reuben, Founder & President

    * Parent of 2 troubled teens who have been in therapeutic programs
    * Executive in Software Sales and Marketing for over 25 years, including the founding of a significant software enterprise

Does anyone know which TTI program this kid was enrolled in?

[Anonymous]

Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:

People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture.  Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.

[Anonymous]

Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:

People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture.  Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.

I can quote others if you'd like, such as Jeffery Schaler, Ph.d.  From the back of his book "Addiction is a Choice":

From the book cover:

"Politicians and the media tell us that people who take
drugs, including alcohol or nicotine, cannot help
themselves.  They are supposedly victims of the disease of
'addiction', and they need 'treatment'.  The same goes for
sex addicts, shopping addicts, food addicts, gambling
addicts, or even addicts to abusive relationships.

     This theory, which grew out of the Temperance movement
and was developed and disseminated by the religious cult
known as Alcoholics Anonymous, has not been confirmed by
any factual research.  Numerous scientific studies show
that 'addicts' are in control of their behavior.

     Contrary to the shrill, mindless propaganda of the
'war on drugs', very few of the people who use alcohol,
marijuana, heroin, or cocaine will ever become 'addicted',
and of those who do become heavy drug users, most will
mature out of it in time, without treatment.  Research
indicates that 'treatment' is completely ineffective, an
absolute waste of time and money.

     Instead of looking at drug addiction as a disease, Dr.
Schaler proposes that we view it as willful commitment or
dedication, akin to joining a religion or pursuing a
romantic involvement.  While heavy consumption of drugs is
often foolish and self-destructive, it is a matter of
personal choice."
 


"Herein, Dr. Schaler drives a stake into the heart of the
'disease' concept of addictions.  Millions of people have
stopped smoking, abusing mind-altering drugs, and drinking
addictively on their own, without the intervention of
counselors or doctors or programs.  Dr. Schaler explains
persuasively why and how this happens, despite all the
genetic and hormonal predispositions."  

     --JOSEPH GERSTEIN, M.D., F.A.C.P., Harvard Medical School;
       Past President of SMART Recovery


"This is indeed a rare book.  Schaler has produced a
unique, masterly work which explains addiction from a
revelatory perspective.  The reader can learn how the
controversial area of addiction can be looked at and
understood in a new light."

     --MORRIS CHAFETZ, M.D., Founding Director,
       National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism;
       President, Health Education Foundation, Wash., D.C.


"Dr. Schaler has a hard-hitting, no-nonsense style which
for me made Addiction Is a Choice a clear and fascinating
read.  The wealth of information and fresh insights reflect
the writer's career as scholar-teacher-therapist, and
especially his many years of research and practical work in
the addiction field.  The book dispels many myths about
addiction and should provide liberating insights to the
afflicted.  It deserves to have a major impact on the way
we think and act in our dealings with addictions."

     --HERBERT FINGARETTE, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of
       Philosophy, University of California, Santa Barbara;  
       Author of "Heavy Drinking:  The Myth of Alcoholism as a
       Disease."


"Addiction Is a Choice" is a powerful antidote against the
twin poisons of anti-drug propaganda and drug prohibition."

     --THOMAS SZASZ, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus,
       State University of New York Health Science Center,
       Syracuse;  Author of "Ceremonial Chemistry" and
       "Our Right to Drugs"


From the book jacket:

     'Addiction' is a fine old English word meaning
commitment, dedication, devotion, inclination, bent, or
attachment.
 
     "Particular addictions may be good or bad.  Some folk
are addicted to music, others to books, others to walks in
the country.  Some are addicted to a religious doctrine or
community, be it the Roman Catholic, the Mormon, or the Zen
Buddhist.  Others are addicted to a political philosophy,
like liberalism, socialism, or anarchism, or to a 'cause',
like animal rights or free trade.  

     "Some people are addicted to another person:  perhaps
their spouse, perhaps their latest flame.  Others are
addicted to a habit, like getting up early every morning.  
Michelangelo was addicted to painting and sculpting,
Einstein was addicted to physics, Proust was addicted to
writing, Gandhi was addicted to independence for India.  
Many others, of course, have been equally addicted to these
pursuits, but have lacked exceptional talent.
 
     "Sometimes addictions fade gradually.  The ardent
lover becomes the jaded husband, or the heavy drinker of
alcohol gradually moderates.  Other times, one addiction is
suddenly replaced by another:  the ardent lover of x
becomes the ardent lover of y, or the heavy drinker becomes
instead a born-again Christian.  Malcolm X relates how
converts to the Nation of Islam quickly abandoned any of
their former drug-taking habits.
 
     "An addiction is not exactly the same as habit, though
one can be addicted to a habit.  John Stuart Mill refers to
'A man who causes grief to his family by addiction to bad
habits.'  Addiction is a fondness for, or orientation
toward, some thing or activity, because it has meaning,
because it is considered valuable or even sacred.  In some
cases, people may be addicted to something because they
find it enjoyable, and this, of course, also reflects their
values:  such a person believes that the right way to live
is to seek enjoyment.
 
     "Human life is always involved with addictions, and
would be wretched and worthless, perhaps even impossible,
without addictions.  Addico, ergo sum.  Yet human life can
be devastated or horribly blighted by ill-chosen
addictions.  A simple example would be that of an
adolescent drawn into an apparently warm and benevolent
religious group, which only gradually comes forth in its
true colors as a destructive cult of collective suicide.  
Another example might be a young person in the 1930s,
becoming a Communist or a National Socialist.  

     "Addictions are indispensable.  Addictions--and only
addictions--can open us up to all that makes life rich and
fulfilling.  Yet addictions can also have appalling
consequences.  The conclusion is clear:  choose your
addictions very carefully!  Nothing is more vital for a
young person than to select the right addictions.  
Addictions we approve of are called 'virtues'.  Addictions
we disapprove of are called 'vices'.
 
     "In recent years, the word 'addiction' has come to be
used with quite a different meaning.  It is now taken to
refer to any activity which individuals engage in,
deliberately and consciously, and are physically unable to
stop themselves pursuing.  Thus (it is claimed) the heroin
addict cannot refrain from injecting himself with heroin,
the alcohol addict or 'alcoholic' cannot refrain from
swallowing alcoholic beverages, Bill Clinton cannot refrain
from having sexual relations with his subordinates, the
overspending housewife cannot refrain from buying
'unnecessary' things in stores, and the compulsive gambler
cannot stop gambling.
 
     "In this newfangled sense of 'addiction', I maintain
that 'addiction' is a myth.  I deny that there is any such
thing as 'addiction', in the sense of a deliberate and
conscious course of action which the person literally cannot
stop doing.  According to my view of the world, the heroin
addict can stop injecting himself with heroin, the alcohol
addict can stop himself from swallowing whisky, and so
forth.  People are responsible for their deliberate and
conscious behavior. . . .  

Arnold S. Trebach and others have rave reviews for the book too:

". . . Jeff Schaler has managed in one short book . . . to piss off most of the addiction universe--and to turn on their head many of the most cherished concepts that addiction experts have believed and promulgated for eons. This is a remarkable accomplishment."
--Arnold S. Trebach, Ph.D., J.D., Professor Emeritus, Department of Justice, Law and Society, School of Public Affairs, American University; Founder of the Drug Policy Foundation

"I think he has set up a straw man. Addiction researchers and therapists do not use such absolute terms. . . . The issue is whether our behaviour is determined by our chemical memories and the stimuli we meet; whether the experience we have of making choices is an illusion. . . . He credits the 'disease concept' proponents with little intelligence! . . . As part of his attack on 'the sanctity of the Therapeutic State and the economic interests of the growing treatment industry', Dr Schaler exposes 'The Project MATCH cover-up' . . . I share Dr Schaler's concern that commercial clinics can abuse the disease concept, persuading employers or families to coerce the 'sick person' into treatment which she does not wish and perhaps do not even need. Like him, I shudder at the way 'denial' is used as a defining symptom of illness by some clinics. If I deny that I have diabetes, does that mean I am likely to have diabetes? . . . Dr Schaler is right to warn of the danger that people might use the disease concept to absolve themselves from responsibility. . . . We need to be reminded of harmful consequences of too ready use of the disease concept - and Dr Schaler's book helps to keep a balance."
--Jonathan Chick, M.D.

"I think he should listen closely when AA members tell him that 'people who don't know better will be led astray' by his ideas with catastrophic results. . . . I advise you to read this book."
--Jack R. Anderson, M.D.

That's another book I advise you as your dark lord (tm) to read.

[Anonymous]

Well, I don't really care about the AA debate one way or the other. I think it's much to do about nothing, in other words. a waste of time. But, I have noticed this Peele name come up a lot on this forum, and I don't understand why people put so much faith in what one person has to say. Sometimes this forum turns into a battle of links, like if you find someone to back up your views it somehow proves you right.

[Anonymous]

Nah, just making sure people have all the information.  You don't normally here criticisms of AA.   People just take it almost as tradition that its a good thing or "the way".  They really haven't been exposed to anything else.  I believe that all opinions have some use.

Peele has a great site that explains things in pretty simple terms, so he's referred to a lot when discussing this type of stuff.  As are AO and More Revealed.  They've done a good bit of research and its all well sourced.  And it is pretty telling to have a good many of the AA defenders flat refuse to read anything critical of AA at all.  Again, I just can't imagine going through life that way.

[Anonymous]

Stanton peele, Ph.D has something to say on that:

People here refer to this guy like they are quoting scripture.  Looks like even the Anti-AA people have a Guru.

Peele runs a very expensive residential program. His "tools" are copywrited, if he can get it into treatment hospitals he'll be a millionare many times over!Keep quoting him, people. Spread his doctrine and teach the people.

THE LIFE PROCESS PROGRAM ©!
http://www.stgregoryctr.com/
"Residential care is an important part of recovery" Is "it right for you or your loved ones"?
Prepare to be indoctrinated that you have a "dependancy" and a "disregard for consequences" and that you are unable to "recognize negetive consequences." You will be taught "life skills" and "behavior modification"


Use Stanton's  7 tools.
Values
Motivation
Rewards
Resources
Support
Maturity

Cause, Drugies don't have values

[Anonymous]

Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.

i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.


Here is what A.A. says bout alchoholism
"while there is no formal "A.A. definition" of alcholoism most of us agree that for us it could be described as a physcical obsession coupled with a mental obsession. We mean that we had a distinct physical desire to consume alchohol beyond our capacity to control it, and in defiance of all rules of common sense. We nnot only had an abnomral craving for alchohol, but we frequently yei;ed to it at the worst possible times."

Reading over A.A. literature, which strikes me as very reasonable and cautious, then reading over this forum, I see  semantical haggling and one sided, out of context quotes with the intent of creating a boogie man. I suspect some vocal anti-A.A.ers have their own agendas, from making survivors look "dumb or "unreliable" to derailing threads, or are non-survivors who just people who don't like A.A. and like spreading the gospel, so to speak, or as they put it "educating people"...

 Some people here think addicion is nothing but a choice.

A.A. and the AMA and, let's call it, "modern science" thinks addiction is an illness. It's psychological, yes, but also pysiological as in physical, like cancer.  Modern science has found that, yes, as drug addicts use more and more drugs their addiction gets "worse." It "Progresses," so to speak.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7583
"We now know in great detail the brain mechanisms through which drugs acutely modify mood, memory, perception, and emotional states. Using drugs repeatedly over time changes brain structure and function in fundamental and long-lasting ways that can persist long after the individual stops using them. Addiction comes about through an array of neuro-adaptive changes and the lying down and strengthening of new memory connections in various circuits in the brain."

That doesn't mean its a progressive disease with the same metabolic processes as "cancer," or that if you have marajuana, you will "progress" to heroin, that's folk-lore thats grown around the science, but it is "progressive."

I hope we can stop the semi-"obsessive" AA focus some day. Its a red herring.

[Anonymous]

Michael was a good student, maintaining a 3.5 grade point average at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School until he got into drugs. Reuben's troubles with drugs began in the middle of his senior year with drinking, then marijuana and ultimately progressing to intravenous heroin, his father said. He left school before graduation and received his GED, said his father. His drug addiction progressed to intravenous heroin.

How many times are they going to repeat the phrase "progressed to intravenous heroin"? Bad writing, the editor should of caught that.

What they are trying to say is the child was using maybe alcohol, pot….then “progressed” to more potent drugs.  Children/ adults rarely start out shooting up heroin as their first substance.  They usually build up to it over time moving up the chain from lesser potent substances.  Addiction is a progressive disease.

YES, but you can't "progress" from alchohol to another drug. It doesn't make sense that one drug would create another craving for another with completley different chemical make-up, right? You also cannot be addicted, chemically, to pot.

There has been study after study on this.

[psy]

Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.

i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.

First of all.  I don't have any sort of problem, though it's typical for a stepper to imply anybody criticizing their organization to have a "problem", be "in denial" or my personal favorite, a "dry drunk" (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one).  I haven't had a drink since new years champagne with my parents.  I could certainly drink if I wanted to.  I just don't like it very much.  Alcohol is quite available in this household and drinking is not frowned upon.  I grew up in Europe where moderation is taught early and well.  I don't smoke pot either (though I have in the past and certainly don't frown on the practice... i view it similarly to alcohol).  Secondly, the source cited by that guest is Stanton Peele, not Agent Orange.

He writes in the above link about the misconception of progression:

Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse

The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34

Note that that quote more or less sums up AA teaching.  AA teaches:

We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 30.

Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 33.

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

It helped me a lot to become convinced that alcoholism was a disease, not a moral issue; that I had been drinking as a result of a compulsion, even though I had not been aware of the compulsion at the time; and that sobriety was not a matter of will power.
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 448.

And so on and so forth.

Peele continues:

Of course, when you talk to alcoholics, you discover that they were early problem drinkers before they progressed to alcoholism. But the fact is, the large majority of problem drinkers outgrow their drinking problems, according to the national surveys conducted by Don Cahalan and his associates. Men often go through problem drinking periods, depending on their stage in the life cycle and the people they associate with, only to emerge from these when their life circumstances change. Incidentally, the large majority of these untreated former problem drinkers do not choose to abstain but continue drinking while diminishing or eliminating their problems. The largest group of problem drinkers is young men, but young drinkers show the highest rate of natural remission as they age.35

Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.

Nor are children of alcoholics destined to progress to alcoholism when they drink. A large, long-term study of Tecumseh, Michigan, residents conducted by epidemiologists at the University of Michigan found that children of heavy-drinking parents most frequently choose to drink moderately themselves. Although alcoholics have more alcoholic offspring than average, the researchers noted, "alcoholic parental drinking only weakly invites imitation."38 It seems that people are quite capable of learning from observing a parent's alcoholism to avoid such problems themselves. In doing so, the researchers found, children are helped when the heavy drinker is the parent of the opposite sex. In addition, there was less imitation in this study of a heavy-drinking parent when the children as adults recalled the parent as having drinking problems.39 Finally, several studies of children of alcoholics have shown that, even after they themselves develop a drinking problem, they do better in treatment aimed at moderating drinking rather than at abstinence than do other problem drinkers.40

Although by far the largest percentage of those who outgrow a drinking or drug problem without treatment are younger, natural recovery in alcoholism and addiction is not limited to the young or to those who fall short of developing severe alcoholism.41 Those who have progressed to definite alcohol dependence also regularly escape from alcoholism on their own; indeed, natural remission for alcoholics may be more typical than not. In the words of British physician Milton Gross, who has focused on the biological aspects of alcohol dependence:

    The foundation is set for the progression of the alcohol dependence syndrome by virtue of its biologically intensifying itself. One would think that, once caught up in the process, the individual could not be extricated. However, and for reasons poorly understood, the reality is otherwise. Many, perhaps most, do free themselves.42

A number of studies have now documented that such self-cure among alcoholics is common. These untreated but recovered alcoholics constitute, according to researcher Barry Tuchfeld, a "silent majority."43 Based on his research in Australia, psychiatrist Les Drew has described alcoholism as a "self-limiting" disease, one that creates pressures for its own cure even in the absence of outside interventions."44 In the words of Harold Mulford, "Contrary to the traditional clinical view of the alcoholism disease process, progress in the alcoholic process is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Eventually, the balance of natural forces shifts to decelerate progress in the alcoholic process and to accelerate the rehabilitation process."45

Peele's sources are cited in the original linked above.

I hope we can stop the semi-"obsessive" AA focus some day. Its a red herring.

You have a certain point there.  I don't think the debate should end, but I do think there is an appropriate place for it, this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26586

[psy]

What program were you in, guest?  I'm guessing it was a WWASP program that dind't emphaze stepper dogma like most programs out there (Straight based, CEDU based, etc...)

[Anonymous]

Source: http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Alcoholism is only a progressive disease in the religion of the 12 steppers.

i honestly don't know where you people get your information from, (well, "orange")and why some of you seem to think all your problems can be blamed on a.a.

First of all.  I don't have any sort of problem.  I haven't had a drink since new years champagne with my parents.  I could certainly drink if I wanted to.  I just don't like it very much.  Alcohol is quite available in this household and drinking is not frowned upon.  I grew up in Europe where moderation is taught early and well.  I don't smoke pot either (though I have in the past and certainly don't frown on the practice... i view it similarly to alcohol).  Secondly, the source cited by that guest is Stanton Peele, not Agent Orange.

I'm not saying "your problems" in that you have alcoholism. I am saying  "your problems" are zero tolerance laws, the drug war, "sober house," , and the "progressive disease" issue, the last is an issue you will need to take up with medical science, not A.A.

He writes in the above link about the misconception of progression:

Alcoholic Progression — A Drinking Problem Can Only Get Worse

The nineteenth-century view of alcoholic progression — that occasional drinkers become regular drinkers become alcoholics — is alive and well in the modern alcoholism movement. Now the idea is that anyone who ever has any problems with their drinking must either seek treatment or progress to inevitable, life-threatening alcoholism. "The ultimate consequences for a drinking alcoholic," Dr. G. Douglas Talbott says, "are these three: he or she will end up in jail, in a hospital, or in a graveyard."34

Note that that quote more or less sums up AA teaching.  AA teaches:

We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, page 30.

I don't get the feeling that BW means that alcoholism get worse like cancer gets worse, I think he means that alcoholics who continue their pattern of alcoholic drinking will get worse.

 I think that’s kinda on the money, and backed up by science..

Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.

Yes, but if you look at the article someone posted, that’s kinda true.

Brain structure changes with alcoholic levels of drinking, and it stays changed long after drinking. In a sense, someone who once has once been an alcoholic will always have certain tendencies brought on by habituation and physiology, and therefore always will "be an alcoholic." He is expressing a scientific truth in laymen’s language.

 Those tendencies won't exist in perpetuity for 100% of all people, and certainly if you go 30 years post-alcohol leading a full, non alcohol dependant life they may not be an issue, and some people regenerate brain pathways faster than others, and certain people will be able to resist urges almost immediately after they stop being problem drinkers, but the truth ismost people will retain altered physical brain pathways,  instincts, understanding and tendencies for most of their lives.

I don’t understand why this is hard for you to believe. The same thing happens to young adults raised in programs. For the most part they are altered, mentally, long after they leave programs.

It helped me a lot to become convinced that alcoholism was a disease, not a moral issue; that I had been drinking as a result of a compulsion, even though I had not been aware of the compulsion at the time; and that sobriety was not a matter of will power.

jesus This is BAD thing to you? You WANT alcoholism to be a "moral issue"? You want a 16th century understanding of alcoholism= it’s the person's fault, the person is a loser without will power.

Sorry, I think that’s a shitty goal…