WHAT DOES ROBERT BROWNING LICHFIELD LOOK LIKE?

[Anonymous]

Carey,
 
In reply to this email I must say that you sound very defensive.  I will answer your questions to the best of my ability without sounding neither defensive or judgmental.  I am curious though...if you didn't know where your boys were how did you get access to the BBS?  Not the general site but the BBS?
The schools have a school board, I agree.  They are suppose to check everyone out but apparently some fall through the cracks; such as the coaches arrested for porno, the teachers accused of sexual relations with teens, and teachers and counselors who have drug or alcohol problems?  You see no one is perfect- not you, me or our children or the people we entrust them to.  Also, in case you haven't heard there has been problems getting certified teachers in our school systems.
As a parent I do not have a choice in who our schools hire, as in the hiring process.  It is after the person has been exposed to our children that we may find out about their personality, work ethics etc.  
My daughter entered the school because she was involved with internet chat rooms, lying about who she was etc.  She was defiant, depressed related to her father's death, would not cooperate with counselors, hung with kids who drank and probably used drugs and she was in a private school!  Before she got to the point that your children did (according to the news article) I did the best thing I could before I possibly would have found her dead.  She is a temporary student at Dundee and has been in the program for 16 months.  It is the best thing I could have done for our family.
I am sorry that you feel that you cannot see both sides of the program.  No program is perfect.  You apparently tried with your boys, "their mother, exasperated by their drinking and cavalier attitude toward curfews and other parental safeguards" sent them to their father and the behavior continued. This is in your news article also.  It would seem that both of you made attempts to help them and someone entrusted the program based on their history.  This was an attempt to help them become accountable for their actions.  Drinking at age 15-16 is illegal, as well as being unhealthy and dangerous.  
You have your right to an opinion just as I and many others. Your article came across as a tool to help you when you go to court or whatever.  It was very negative and was not accurate.  It appeared as if you were exposing your dirty laundry for all to see, was this fair to your boys?  News sells for negative things and the article was very one sided....your view.  Hopefully in the future another article will be written that will show a better happier side of not only the program but of local La. teens who have been through the program and survived the changes and live on in their integrity.
I am proud to be a "program parent" to be able to sleep at night to know where my children are, who they are with and that they can be accountable for their actions.  They have direction in their lives as I do and together we are happier and are goal oriented.  There are consequences for our actions and consistency, and I am happy that the system has worked for my family.  There are no guarantees in life, as my ex-husband found out, death can get anyone and then there are only regrets.




I read your letter on the bbs.  The one in reference to the news story about Dundee.  

       Well I ask, how can you have an opinion about boys that you don't know?  

       Have you done any research independent of the information provided to you by WWASP or Dundee?  Have you asked any questions about the people who work at Dundee?  Well I have.  I asked both directors, Amberly and Joe, about the people who work there.  I explained to them that I needed to feel comfortable with the people who would be working with my kids.  After all, these are teens with problems.  So I wanted to know how the employees were trained.  I asked what kind of credentials the employees had.  I asked for their first and last names so that I could do background checks on them.   As a parent, should not I be allowed to have access to this information.  I would think if everything were on the up and up, they would be more than willing to furnish that information to parents.    But you know what Joe's response was?  He said, I don't have time to provide me with that information.  

       Now as for Amberly, she did not provide me with the answers to my questions because she was fired.  Do you know why she was fired?  Well, she was fired because of an assault and rape that took place  at Dundee in August.  The US Embassy knows about the assault and rape.  But I bet, Dundee has not informed parents about it,  have they?  No they haven't.  

First, I am not writing to you to try and justify my actions.  I am just trying to ask you  to take a step back and look at the situation from your own persepective and not that of WWASP.  You have a right to question me and you have a right to question WWASP.  You have the ability to form your own opinion separate and apart from me or WWASP.

You cant' say the program has worked for your daughter, she is still there.  It won't be until she comes home and  once again has to make decisions for herself in which she will then be held  accountable for.    Right now decisions are being made for her.  I see that the program is working for you because you aren't having to deal with her.

       Your daughter suffers from depression.  Did you not read the Enrollment Agreement?  They state on page one that Dundee Ranch is not recommended for students who are depressed.  Did you not read what you signed?   The girl at Tranquility Bay that commited suicide was depressed.  WWASP claims that she was depressed befor she got there. Is that not the same for your daughter.   Your daughters father died and instead of seeking professional help you send her to Dundee?  With no trained therapist how can the "program" at Dundee help her?

       In this letter your daughter has behavior that needs to be modified.  Make up your mind, does she or doesn't she?  Do you know?  Well, if you email WWASP they will tell you what she needs.    Is that the way it should be?

       Schools in the United States, good schools, will disclose to parents information concerning employees.  If a teacher rapes a student they do not try to hide it.   That is public information.   That is the difference.  But keep in mind the risk of good schools having incidents like that occur are less likely than WWASP schools because teachers are fingerprinted and a criminal check is done before they are hired.   That greatly reduces the risk of a child being abused physically or mentally.   I prefer that my children be protected to the fullest extent.  Why risk a child to save a child?

       I pray for you and your daughter.  I think you are confused and truely think you are doing what is best for your child.  I don't think you are deliberatley trying to hurt your child or that you want anyone else to hurt your child.  I just think you see what they want you to see.

[BuzzKill]

Narvin - you really shouldn't try and respond before you've woken up - or while high - or whatever is wrong with you tonight.

Pull yourself together and com on back and answer the ligitimet questions asked of you.

And one more:
Are you trying to claim what was reported about the girls with the brooms never happened?

[Anonymous]

I made my assessment as did other parents in this area (Southeast Louisiana) who have children in the program with similar problems.  I have completed all of the seminars and am aware of the manipulation and ways that people can jump to conclusions before they have the facts.  
From what I read in the article the information was not based on one specialty program but lumped all of them together.  WWASP and the others philosophy are not the same.  Other programs do not involve the parents, have you attended the seminars?  I am not sure that you have or you would have considered the long term effect of what you did.
I am well aware of the problems that have occurred at several of the schools...are they perfect? no...do they claim to be perfect ? no. Are they discrete and attempt to handle the problems internally, without hundreds of parents  putting in their two cents, I think so.
I was very angry with the newspaper article, then I read it again and realized it was self-serving.  I have contacted the writer and we are communicating for a future article.
Let me ask you...do you do a complete background check on your sons school teachers? Their friends? or for that matter the people you work for?  Most likely not...you go on the trust of others.  
I am not trying to be confrontational or judgmental but very concerned about what will happen to your children coming back into the same situation and probably among the same friends??? You stated you couldn't control them and neither could their father.  He tried to help them but that was interrupted. Is this a pattern for you?
I think I can understand why you were not given the credentials of the staff, could they risk you putting those employees names and backgrounds in the news and courts?  There is a privacy act in the US and I bet some sort of one in Costa Rica.  
My child has been in the WWASP system for 16 months.  She WAS NOT into drugs, sex or juvenile delinquency yet....but was headed there.  I allowed my child at age 13 to enter the program and I don't regret it one minute.  I did my research, I visited prior to admission and I have a very good relationship with both schools.  My daughter is at Dundee as part of the upper level Leadership program.  This will allow her to transition into high school.  It is a wonderful gift.  
There are probably more success stories than there are poor disgruntled ones.  The decision to help your child before their short lives could end is a gift that can live on forever.  
I truly hope you have made the best decision for your children and that you and your ex-husband can work this out because your children are in need of both of you.  You have many challenges ahead of you and I wish you well.
There are numerous families in Southeast Louisiana area who have /had children at the different schools including Dundee, TB and CASA (all out of the country).  There are several families that belong to a support group that is available in this area.  It is good to have the support group, BBS and FR to help us through this experience.  
Good luck with your journey.


    I read your letter on the bbs.  The one in reference to the news story about Dundee.  

       Well I ask, how can you have an opinion about boys that you don't know?  

       Have you done any research independent of the information provided to you by WWASP or Dundee?  Have you asked any questions about the people who work at Dundee?  Well I have.  I asked both directors, Amberly and Joe, about the people who work there.  I explained to them that I needed to feel comfortable with the people who would be working with my kids.  After all, these are teens with problems.  So I wanted to know how the employees were trained.  I asked what kind of credentials the employees had.  I asked for their first and last names so that I could do background checks on them.   As a parent, should not I be allowed to have access to this information.  I would think if everything were on the up and up, they would be more than willing to furnish that information to parents.    But you know what Joe's response was?  He said, I don't have time to provide me with that information.  

       Now as for Amberly, she did not provide me with the answers to my questions because she was fired.  Do you know why she was fired?  Well, she was fired because of an assault and rape that took place  at Dundee in August.  The US Embassy knows about the assault and rape.  But I bet, Dundee has not informed parents about it,  have they?  No they haven't.

[cherish wisdom]

I don't drink at all - don't smoke or use any drugs. BUT AT 16 - I did all of those things and so did most of my friends and at least 40% of the other teens in the 1970's. The same is true today (if not worse) I straightend out after a year of this - ON MY OWN - without therapists, drugs, residential treatment.  
At some point parents need to realize that alcohol is part of our culture - it's everywhere. If you drink it - your kids will probably try it too.  

There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention.
--Helen Keller, American lecturer

[Anonymous]

First,  the school that boys attend here in the states have a school board.  These individuals are elected by the people.  These school board memebers  do criminal records checks, background checks, check the work history of the people who are hired and then they are hired if and only if they have the credentials necessary for teaching children.  Second, the schools here hires counselors, who are trained with the proper credentials.

You don't thinks parents have a right to "put in there two cents"  where their kids are concerned?   Well I do!

I also want to questions the reason that you have sent your child to Dundee.   You said she was doing fine.  You stated , "She WAS NOT into drugs, sex or juvenile delinquency yet....but was headed there."   Dundee is set up as a "behavior modification".  So were you trying to modify behavior that she was not already displaying?  That does not make any sense.   You sent her for leadership?

My boys will be helped by true professionals.  Dundee and/or WWASP have nothing to offer in regard to true professional, caring help.  Dundee spends all their resources on convering things up.

Should you as a parent check out the employees at WWASP.  Yes you should.  You know why  you should?  Well, because they do not want to be accountable for their employees.  They state that in their enrollment agreement.  They teach accountability, so they say, but not by example.  They even told you about that before you signed on the dotted line.

[Anonymous]

I predict that the bitch who shipped her kid to Dundee because the kid logged into a couple of chat rooms, was grieving her dead father, was a normally grumpy teen, and had friends who were normal I-wanna-have-fun grumpy teens---I predict the bitch spends a very, very *lonely* old age where her daughter doesn't talk to her at all.

And she deserves to.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Narvin - good to hear from you.  As for all the hate coming from this board, it's to be expected.  Only one or two had a child at Dundee and it wasn't about Dundee for one, but about a parent not telling the other about what he was dong.  I'm not sure I wouldn't feel the same if my ex-husband secretly shipped my kids off somewhere without my knowledge. It's so easy to get caught up in the negative when there's fear involved. As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what she says and what her son told her.  Sad.  

The others don't understand the full family involvement, the support groups, the seminars to help us find out what is truly important in our lives and live it, not just talk about it. And most important, how we rebuild our relationship with our child and ourself, one lesson and one day at a time.

I personally have no first hand knowledge of Dundee other than the kids that graduated from there, but I do know that parents and professionals are on campus every single day.  They attend group, attend teen seminars next to their child, eat the same food and are welcome even without prior notice.  Letters are not monitored (We wish they had been in the beginning!) It changed my life and the life of someone very special to me.  He's been home for several years and my gratitude will always be with the staff who unselfishly gave so much to him. This young man is a hero for doing something so powerful that he never thought he could.

The only way to stop the need for schools like this is to address the underlying causes of the breakdown, in both the parents and the child, in other words, the whole family.   WWASPS does this on a daily basis.  Better watch out, you're doing such a great job, someday there won't be a need for "troubled teen" schools anymore! In the meantime, I'm grateful WWASPS schools are there. :wink:

[Anonymous]

Program Parent,You said with you have no first hand knowledge of dundee, Then you said parents and professionals were on campus every day. Which is it? My daughter also talks of pills and shots given to her, I would also like to know what they were. Narvin, alot of the kids talk about a young boy age 13 screaming in O.P they said he screamed like a girl, You must remember the screaming, Boys and girls remember him.

[BuzzKill]

//As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what she says and what her son told her. Sad. //

I do indeed believe my son. He isn't a liar with regard to things of this nature. He had no motivation to lie at all when he began telling me what was going on at Dundee. He had been out of the place for months when he started talking.
And, his testimony is supported by similar (even identical) accounts from many other boys; and not just from Dundee, but from all the wwasp programs.
I think the Quantity & Consistency of the accounts proves their credibility.

You, on the other hand - my program friend - You chose to think the kids are all liars; and the program owners and staff the truthful ones.
This, despite the fact They have a great deal of motivation to lie to you. This, despite the fact, you can never get a straight answer from them when asking direct questions; and the explanations they do give are so full of holes you could drive a mac truck threw them. This, despite the fact, they have admitted to press and in court to things anyone would define as abusive. I mean Anyone. Unless they are Programmed. You have been robbed of your ability to think for yourself. You think what your told to think by your program. Sad. Very sad indeed.

[BuzzKill]

Joe reportedly wrote:

"The Costa Rican people are actually renown for their caring nature, "

I can believe this. I do believe this. THIS is why I think Narvin imported the Jamaicans. I have heard that when the Costa Ricans were guarding OP, they would allow the kids to relax a little and talk quietly among themselves; And would warn them when a Jamaican or a Mormon was coming so they could reassume the position. I have often heard it was the Jamaicans the kids where afraid of. Funny Joe didn't mention any of this.

Also from Joe:
" If you have received some negative information about the Academy, or would simply like to talk about some concerns that you are having regarding your child"
*note: he went on to suggest a call or letter.

Odd. When I asked Joe about my concerns, he told me he would look into it and get back to me. Soon thereafter, he resigned. He Never did get back to me.Odd. Wonder why?

This just slays me - Ken Kay explains:
"By the way OP stands for "observation placement"......not punishment.

Sincerely,

Ken Kay
President "

OP may not "stand" for punishment - but hell's bells - what else can you call it? It is extremely punishing. It mirrors the treatment inflicted upon POWs and prisoners at Devils Island! The stress position that Must be maintained - or very painful restraint (torture) will result. The Silence that Must be maintained, or very painful restraint (torture) will result. The hunger. The lack of restroom breaks. The forced and extream exercise. But this is observation place - not punishment! And you poor program junkies suck it up. Sad. So very sad.

Heres why:
"You'll be going to Discovery very soon and will be able to converse with your daughter about the awesome adventure of Discovery (it is not everyone?s cup of tea, but if open minded, a sip of the tea and make a difference). Sign up for Focus (you'll have a chance there) and give it a try, it can't hurt"

Can't hurt?
Oh, but it can.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-11-13 07:18 ]

[Carey]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Narvin - good to hear from you. As for all the hate coming from this board, it's to be expected. Only one or two had a child at Dundee and it wasn't about Dundee for one, but about a parent not telling the other about what he was dong. I'm not sure I wouldn't feel the same if my ex-husband secretly shipped my kids off somewhere without my knowledge.

Anon, that is not entirely the case.  Yes my ex was wrong for not including me on a decision that greatly impacted all of us in my family but Dundee did nothing to correct the situation.  Instead they did everything they could to try and keep my kids in the program.  You see I wrote and called and even took my case to court because my kids were placed there without my consent.  Dundee and it's directors did everything they could to try and keep my kids there even after knowing about my objections.

If Dundee truely believed that the program is good for the whole family and that the program requires the involvement of the whole family in order for it to be successful then the whole family must be in on the decision of placement. Narvin no matter what the truth is in regard to the alligations made against you, you should have realized that in my families case it was not the right choice. Maybe I did not talk to you personally but it was your school and in my opinion you are responsible for your employees, Amberly and Joe.  They both knew. I can't believe that you were not made aware of my situation.

FYI, they are doing very good.  Both are working, both have taken their GED and both have learned to put thier experience in perspective.  

I will say this, Dundee was not as bad as the nightmares that I had invisioned.  But, I still would not have ever chosen a place like Dundee.  I value communication and I found that Dundee worked too hard to control what I valued.

 
I don't hate you Narvin.  I may have said so in the past when emotions were high, but not now.  I just don't appreciate that while most program people promote "a parents right to choose what is in the best interest of their child"  your school tried to take that right away from me.

[Deborah]

Might the CR employees be the ones Narvin referred to when he said this:

"I did observe staff having a student walk around the pool instead of sitting in OP but when asked the staff said the child choose to do that rather than sit doing nothing. I held a meeting immediately with Joe and Amberly and told them the staff were "doing their own thing and to fix it to conform with policy or get a new staff."

They weren't 'tough enough'? Walking around the pool might not have the same desired effect as kneeling/lying on concrete for days/weeks on end.
Or having ones arm twisting to the breaking point.

He assures no abuse is ocurring and states that he's there 2 weeks out of the month, yet didn't know about the water situation for a month. In his mind, he may not consider the methods abusive. But when asked direct questions about them he doesn't respond.

What a fine way to abdicate responsibility for the abuse- claim that you've never 'seen' any, and when there is an undeniable incident (injury that can't be hidden); claim it is the fault of the staff.... and will be fixed, or was fixed.

This circular argument never ends because when there is actually a person to confront they deny their methods, even ones they have previously admitted to publicly. Rather than respond to direct question, they punt, and start posting/ flooding the forum with letters from program parents.

I've been following this and I'd like to know why the parent was told her son had a reaction to a tomato, what meds the kids are being given without parental consent, and all the other direct questions that have been avoided.

Didn't I read that there is a surviellence camera in OP? Wouldn't you like to see past footage? Perhaps they should provide live coverage of OP at ther website so parents/public can tune in anytime 24/7 to see who is in OP and how long they stay and how they are treated while there.
Then they could brag to the world... Our program is successful and here's one way we do it. Real transparency.

[cherish wisdom]

I'm really tired of these program people indicating that the kids are manipulating. If you want to really prove your case - install constant video survailance so you can prove to all of us that YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH.  When dozens of former PATIENTS complain of the same maltreatment - it's hard to believe you over them. A picture speaks louder than words. Or, are you afraid of installing them. It could back up your claims and it could prevent child abuse and the he said she said problem where the HE is a staff member and the SHE is a "manipulative" student.   Most pediatric units have installed them to protect both patient and staff. I suggest that you do the same.  The California Youth Authority has them and we recently saw for ourselves staff beating and kicking juveniles in the head while another staff member tried to get them out of cameras way.  

I also suggest that you allow the kids to have un-monitored communication with parents. I know for a fact that you send parents letters warning them from day one that their kids may LIE about the program. You essentially manipulate the parents from day one.  They also become re-programed along with their children.  

I believe that human beings arrive on this Earth wanting to know absolutely everything, and the best thing we can do as parents is to get out of the way -- just be there to let them know what opportunities are there
-- Dorothy Werner, media liaison for the National Homeschool Association

[Anonymous]

Anon,

You sound so foolish. Brainwashed almost.

Whole and healthy families is a crock of Program crap.How can you justify healthyand whole, with abusive sexual predators on staff? When Program administrators know of such behavior and CHOOSE to not address the concerns?

How does one explain the sick sick sick concept of the exit plan promoted by the program and other program parents at the support groups? Healthy? Abandonment is what I call it.

"Our kids will thank us some day." I dont think so. They will never forgive us for not believing when the letters home had family code words begging for help..May God forgive me for trusting the program and its lying staff.

[Anonymous]

As for BuzzKill, Karen, she honestly believes what her son told her.  Sad.  

Programmed Parent, do you even realize how sick you sound?

Why should a parent believe a bunch of money-hungry, sadistic strangers over THEIR OWN CHILD???

This is so sick...