General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
Wow, obama is going to win
TheWho:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website? That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit." While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable...... For what possible good reason? That does not make a whole lot of sense. A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for.... I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable. Again... It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me..
--- End quote ---
I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend. I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes. Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.
--- Quote --- Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
--- End quote ---
I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success. I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories. The post one or two before this is a good example. The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story. But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.
--- Quote --- lol. You're setting me up with that one there. I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion). I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.
I don't do "this is good" I do "this is bad". It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing. It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences). If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way. I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)
--- End quote ---
I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness. The last thing we want is more government interference. Gitmo is a good example. Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated? Do they follow their own polices? Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves? :karma:
psy:
How about testimony at the GAO hearings. A sworn statement corroborating the above good enough for you? (not the same source either):
http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008 ... awford.pdf
There are video clips on youtube as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A
A news article here (of which there are many more):
http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=817660
SPFT (a bunch of guys from Denmark who also manage the Fornits wiki) are not native English speakers. They recently referred to suicides in program as "necktie parties":
http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 36#p323091
Whether they refer to students as "detainees" or not is irrelevant. The details in the statement from Brendan Burns are corroborated by those of Jon Martin Crawford. The GAO also investigated his claims independently.
TheWho:
--- Quote from: "Guest" ---Yes. The school does not refer to its detainees as detainees it uses the euphanism "student." SPFT uses the english term that appropriately descibes the captives situation, not the Orwellian newspeak that you, and FFS, as a cult and dealer in human bodies respectively prefer.
SPFT links to "articles" and sworned testimony before congree
Here is testimony of the same before congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A
http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm
http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson
http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-sza ... 04.08.html
As an edcon who is seeminly unaware of this, you are not doing a great job of keeping educated about the private prisons you "research" and refer to. What is your name and where is your site? I mean, reputable professionals don't keep their identity hidden to prevent inquiry into their "sucess" level. Do you?
--- End quote ---
I have been here way too long . This is addicting.
Look who ever you are. If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others. Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?
psy:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend. I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes. Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.
--- End quote ---
I don't mean to be accusatory, but you didn't talk to Marcy before you referred her there, now did you? Yes, fornits is safe identity-wise (at least peopel's identities are safe unless they decide to share that voluntarily, which is stupid). There are no exceptions to this rule. Barring a court order, anonymity is absolute. On the other hand, it is an unmoderated forum (with the exception of "Facilities Questions and Answers" so it can be very harsh at times. There are a lot of bitter posters here (and with reason).
--- Quote ---
--- Quote --- Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
--- End quote ---
I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success. I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories. The post one or two before this is a good example. The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story. But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.
--- End quote ---
Well. You seemed to be unaware of the congressional testimony of Jon Martin Crawford. It's not a small thing when the GAO cites a program (they DO investigate allegations independently as they don't want to end up with egg on their faces). Did you watch the GAO hearings? The first one? The second one?
--- Quote ---I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness. The last thing we want is more government interference. Gitmo is a good example. Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated? Do they follow their own polices? Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves? :karma:
--- End quote ---
Of course they don't care, unless it's politically useful to care. I'm more in favor of public education than government control. I feel that regulation on this industry is likely to be so badly botched by the government that it will give parents little more than a false sense of security. Straight was endorsed by the government. It was licensed and it didn't do that program any good. Peninsula Village is licensed, and i've heard a lot of horror stories out of there. I'm in the minority here, though. Most feel regulation is the solution. I'm terrified of it, frankly, for the reasons I mentioned and more.
psy:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---I have been here way too long . This is addicting.
--- End quote ---
Yes. You're powerless and fornits is a progressive disease *swings pocketwatch watch slowly* :seg:
--- Quote ---Look who ever you are. If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others. Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?
--- End quote ---
The youtube account he cited was the same that I did. It's a US government account (they use Youtube as well). As for the testimony I cited, it's on a USG website as well. That was sworn testimony before congress about FFS corroborating those other allegations (which were also investigated by the GAO). What more do you want?
Now I might not have much respect for the goverment getting stuff done, but the GAO did do a fantastic job on their investigation (if you've read their reports or watched the hearings). I attended the first hearing. What you don't see is whenever the camera is off Jan Moss (NATSAP), her lawyers are whispering in her ear (this was quite entertaining to watch).
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