Author Topic: The Source, the WWASP In-House Magazine  (Read 5271 times)

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Offline spots

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The Source, the WWASP In-House Magazine
« on: July 29, 2003, 06:25:00 PM »
Anon (is there only one WWASP defender here, posting frequently, hiding behind "Anon"?) posted some links in the Casa Journal thread.  Two are for The Source, the tiny, glossy magazine put out from St. George every other month.  [The third link is a PR piece disguised as a news story by a reporter for a small Seattle-area newspaper.  The Seattle Northwestern WWASP support group is notoriously aggressive in propoganda.]

I have a subscription for this magazine, although it is downloadable from the main WWASP site.  Let me share a little of what the WWASP parents absorb:

There is a new editor lately.  Her name is Glenda Gabriel, and, like almost all WWASP Utah staff, she has sent her kid through The Program.  The prettiness of the magazine improved with her hiring, but the subject matter is still propoganda.  

On the May cover, there is a picture of "The Spring Creek Lodge Academy Choir" at the Montana Capital building rotunda.  Actually, this is the Thompson Falls, MT High School Choir, 52 teens.  Spring Creek Lodge Academy asked to include some kids in the small local high school activities (would I be wrong to think the HS got $$$ for it?) In a side-bar Letter to the Editor of the little local paper, a State Senator gushes about the "Community Choir", "...we have a wonderful group of kids and *adults* in the Spring Creek Community Choir...".  The story carefully skirts around who actually "was" the choir, but the saccharine article goes right to the heart for sponges like Anon who eat this stuff up.

There are several "articles" with a child's name and date of enrollment at a WWASP school (occasionally with a recent graduate).  Read the whole magazine, and it becomes very clear that Ms. Gabriel writes all the text.  Her syntax and style comprise EVERY story, whether it is written by a graduating 18yo (nothing gets printed without "...and it saved my life"), or an 11yo little boy, living at Majestic Ranch since July 2002, who "writes" how he loves his mom, and "I think our relationship has grown a lot since I came here".  Do you know any 11yo boy who writes like this?  

There is an article by a 1998 Program graduate, who now works for WWASP setting up the facilities for the seminars.  He has worked for WWASP since his graduation...as a staffer, an enrollment coordinator, and a transport agent (YIKES!)  Again, typical WWASP corporate staff either went through the program or sent their kids there.

A sort-of sickening article describes the SCLA attempt at normalcy in providing some higher level students with a "prom".  Girls in fancy dresses and tennies dance with each other; a smaller number of boys, some in rented tuxes, hovers off in their own "side".  One visiting mother (son in for about a year) writes, "Anyhow, the room was all done in blue and white with tables set up lengthwise.  The boys and girls sat across from each other and had conversation while eating the finger food.  Sheet cake, vegetables with ranch dip, strawberries and grapes, cold cuts and cheese slices, deluxe mixed nuts, M&M's...Pepsi and bottled water rounded out the menu."  Not quite a night-on-the-town gourmet dinner prom.  

She continues, "...The girls and boys did dance apart.  However, they did arrange a way for the boys and girls to touch dance across from each other carefully, no talking, some even avoided eye contact.  I saw absolutely no inappropriate behavior.  The way they did the pairing was arbitrary, names in a bowl and picked at random so there was no picking partners."

The recent grad writes, at the end of her I-was-horrible-now-I'm-great tale, "Today we are all becoming the leaders of tomorrow.  It is my belief that what we take from this experience will determine where we will lead.  Never forget who you are, because the joy that comes with self-love is priceless.  Go out there and fulfill your dreams.  Make it happen."  Do you know anybody other than Tony Robbins or L. Ron Hubbard who actually believes this stuff?

I suggest you go back and read Deborah's post on the squashing of all her son's independent spirit.  Leading is definitely NOT something these WWASP kids will do.  I hope Deborah's son is able to shake this off eventually, and return to what he was "before".
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2003, 08:28:00 PM »
I'm here, happened on this site well over 2 months ago - and I do post ANON.  As do many others.  What's in a name? My purpose for being here is to let you know that it's not all one-sided.  The others posting ANON are not my concern either.  So what?

Quote
On 2003-07-29 15:25:00, spots wrote:

The third link is a PR piece disguised as a news story by a reporter for a small Seattle-area newspaper.  The Seattle Northwestern WWASP support group is notoriously aggressive in propoganda.]



Small newspaper, so what?  So is the Tico Times.  I guess you have to write for a large paper in order to be credible? Tim Weiner has already apologized for his articles in the NY Times.  No WWASP group is notoriously aggressive - if they were, they'd be all over this forum, in the hundreds.




There is a new editor lately.  Her name is Glenda Gabriel, and, like almost all WWASP Utah staff, she has sent her kid through The Program.  The prettiness of the magazine improved with her hiring, but the subject matter is still propoganda.  



Glenda is not NEW - she's been the Editor for over 5 years!!!


On the May cover, there is a picture of "The Spring Creek Lodge Academy Choir" at the Montana Capital building rotunda.  Actually, this is the Thompson Falls, MT High School Choir, 52 teens.  Spring Creek Lodge Academy asked to include some kids in the small local high school activities (would I be wrong to think the HS got $$$ for it?) In a side-bar Letter to the Editor of the little local paper, a State Senator gushes about the "Community Choir", "...we have a wonderful group of kids and *adults* in the Spring Creek Community Choir...".  The story carefully skirts around who actually "was" the choir, but the saccharine article goes right to the heart for sponges like Anon who eat this stuff up.



The photo IS of the Spring Creek choir.  Think about it...what parent of a non-program student in Thompson Falls agree to have their child on a magazine for program families?  I wouldn't.  If you look closely, you will see the Director of SCL and some staff with the students.  I do recognize several of them as students at SCL.    


There are several "articles" with a child's name and date of enrollment at a WWASP school (occasionally with a recent graduate).  Read the whole magazine, and it becomes very clear that Ms. Gabriel writes all the text.  Her syntax and style comprise EVERY story, whether it is written by a graduating 18yo (nothing gets printed without "...and it saved my life"), or an 11yo little boy, living at Majestic Ranch since July 2002, who "writes" how he loves his mom, and "I think our relationship has grown a lot since I came here".  Do you know any 11yo boy who writes like this?  



As a matter of fact I do. Glenda edits, not writes,though she has on occasion written her own articles - she would have to be super human to write that much that month after month - really!
 

There is an article by a 1998 Program graduate, who now works for WWASP setting up the facilities for the seminars.  He has worked for WWASP since his graduation...as a staffer, an enrollment coordinator, and a transport agent (YIKES!)  Again, typical WWASP corporate staff either went through the program or sent their kids there.



That should really say something about the program if some of the parents want to work for the company and so do their kids who graduated. If it was so horrible, why would they do what they do?  They could get employment elsewhere for a lot more money.    


A sort-of sickening article describes the SCLA attempt at normalcy in providing some higher level students with a "prom".  Girls in fancy dresses and tennies dance with each other; a smaller number of boys, some in rented tuxes, hovers off in their own "side".  One visiting mother (son in for about a year) writes, "Anyhow, the room was all done in blue and white with tables set up lengthwise.  The boys and girls sat across from each other and had conversation while eating the finger food.  Sheet cake, vegetables with ranch dip, strawberries and grapes, cold cuts and cheese slices, deluxe mixed nuts, M&M's...Pepsi and bottled water rounded out the menu."  Not quite a night-on-the-town gourmet dinner prom.  

She continues, "...The girls and boys did dance apart.  However, they did arrange a way for the boys and girls to touch dance across from each other carefully, no talking, some even avoided eye contact.  I saw absolutely no inappropriate behavior.  The way they did the pairing was arbitrary, names in a bowl and picked at random so there was no picking partners."



Hey, whatever, Spots.  You obviously missed the point.
 

The recent grad writes, at the end of her I-was-horrible-now-I'm-great tale, "Today we are all becoming the leaders of tomorrow.  It is my belief that what we take from this experience will determine where we will lead.  Never forget who you are, because the joy that comes with self-love is priceless.  Go out there and fulfill your dreams.  Make it happen."  Do you know anybody other than Tony Robbins or L. Ron Hubbard who actually believes this stuff?



You can attend the parent seminars and get this same knowledge, if you choose.  You don't have to be IN a WWASP program to go. It's not a secret society, you know. What's stopped you from going?  I happen to like Tony Robbins and Dr. Phil, but no one is saying you have to.    
 

I suggest you go back and read Deborah's post on the squashing of all her son's independent spirit.  Leading is definitely NOT something these WWASP kids will do.  I hope Deborah's son is able to shake this off eventually, and return to what he was "before".

"

Yes, these kids do get leadership skills, lots of skills.  Maybe the only drawback is they are more mature and more focused than some of the kids their age.  On Deborah: When these kids first go in, their independent spirit was not working at home, most at a dangerous level. You said quashed, I tend to look at it as re-direction.  That's what I paid for. I don't know the story of why he was there or why he didn't stay long enough to experience the leadership components.  They exist.


Here's the link to the whole magazine, since you picked out just a few articles to dissect.

http://www.wwasp.com/source03/May-03L.pdf
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2003, 10:40:00 PM »
Tim Weiner apologized to whom about his articles?
It hasn't appeared anywhere in print.

So somehow, I doubt it!
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2003, 11:26:00 PM »
On Deborah: When these kids first go in, their independent spirit was not working at home, most at a dangerous level. You said quashed, I tend to look at it as re-direction. That's what I paid for. I don't know the story of why he was there or why he didn't stay long enough to experience the leadership components. They exist.

Re-direction my eye.
No you don't know anything about me, my son, or the facility where he spent 20 months of his 22 month "sentence". Nor does it sound like you bothered to read my post. He possessed leadership skills before "treatment". He demonstrated those skills in wilderness, when for a moment he had room to breath and be himself, largely thanks to the one sane counselor there. He is not as confident after his ordeal, here in the real world. I don't think you needed to bring me or my son into this discussion. It was not necessary to make your point.

But, since you did. Re-direction is not what my son experienced. Re-direction does not include physical or mental abuse- seperation from family, or being made to believe you are a bad person, or eating the same thing day after day, or eating less calories than your teen body requires for extended periods of time while doing manual labor, and on and on ad nauseum.

Re-direction is consistently refocusing a child's attention on what you would rather they do, without ridicule, shame, humiliation, or punishment. Not constantly pointing out their flaws and punishing them.

No maam, what he (and others) experienced is behavior modification of the worst kind. Punishment but no rewards- except for the relief of finally figuring out what they wanted to hear in order to get off restriction.

Two entirely different approaches. Let's not confuse the issue.

Deborah



[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-07-29 20:28 ]
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Offline MORSEGLASS

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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2003, 11:31:00 PM »
where did tim say he was sorry???? i didnt see it anywhere!!!  somebody programed is a fiber !!  prove it!! anon!!  go post on the pro abuse forum! :wstupid:
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Offline MORSEGLASS

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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2003, 11:37:00 PM »
SORRY deborha, i guess i posted at the same time the im with stupid went to anon!!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2003, 11:52:00 PM »
I'm confused about Glenda Gabriel.  Is this the same person as Glenda Cook and Glenda Ikuta?

Thanks!

 :???:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2003, 12:08:00 AM »
Sounds like it.
Deborah

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html

October 1998
WWASP ANNOUNCES DEVELOPMENTS
Karr Farnsworth, President of World Wide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), announced several new developments with the Association. Members include Casa by the Sea, Cross Creek Manor, Morava Academy, Paradise Cove, Spring Creek Lodge and Tranquility Bay, schools that have been known to us under the Teen Help umbrella. Glenda Ikuta, who has been editor of the Paradise Cove newsletter whutz Up in Paradise Cove, is Editor of The Source, the newsletter for WWASP with its first issue being printed this September. All programs will be expanding Reflections, a program for students to reflect on how they live their lives, through additional Motivational Tapes, Emotional Growth Videos, and Educational Tapes/Videos. More TASKS interactions will be created beyond Level 3. Casa by the Sea is providing the ?Internalization phase of the program for students from the offshore facilities.? Paradise Cove, in Somoa has completed the re-modeling of their two-story Media Center. Three staff has been hired to facilitate the World Wide Support group meetings for parents with teens in any of the programs. There will be two meetings a year in each area which includes Southern California, the California Bay Area, Seattle, Arlington in the central US, Houston, D.C. area, Atlanta and Miami.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline scottT

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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2003, 12:38:00 AM »
Dear Anon,  

  You suggest that everyone should go to a WWASP parent seminar, because,  after all,"...its not a secret society."

   I understand that WWASP will soon be running two new seminars I'm sure you'll particularly enjoy--they're being conducted in the original German and Korean!!!

   Right, lets ALL go to a WWASP seminar!  The fact that parents (like me,  once upon a time) could be convinced of the validity of the program based on their experience at the WWASP sponsored seminar is actually pretty laughable.

   No parent can make an informed evaluation of the program based on the (relatively) subtle form of brain-washing that occurs in the parents' seminars -- you stay in a nice hotel, get a good nights sleep, you eat where where you want, and Sunday is a "fun day" where you get a party  and other fun stuff as a "reward" for going through "sharing" and emotionally disconcerting  experiences of the preceding sessions.

   Puh-leeze.  The parents seminars are little more than  2 or 3 day infomercials to keep the parents enthused about writing those $3,000 checks each month (Better keep your kid in there for the full 18 months, folks! Remember,  its OUR WAY -- or the CEMETERY!)

   I believe that the parents' seminars should be more like the actual programs.  For those of you who have been to a WWASP seminar,  please consider how your evaluation of  the program techniques would be affected if you were to, say, listen to the lectures while lying on your stomach for three days straight.  Or, if you don't get back to your seat by the time the music stops,  you will have to go back to level zero,  and extend your child's stay for at least an extra month or two (and $3,000 per month is a small price to pay for learning the value of keeping your agreements)  

God forbid, that your family never had a history of child molestation/sexual abuse/or (fill-in the-tragedy-of-your-choice)?? Obviously, You are refusing to be honest with us! (Actual Quote from our facilitator to gentleman who sheepishly confessed that his life was actually pretty uneventful: "Sir,  I believe you are a mile wide and an inch deep!)

What?  You still don't espouse the values of the program???  You want some mental manipulation?  Our facilitator told a person who was a victim of a hit-and-run accident that the damage was entirely her fault, and that she brought it on herself because of her "bad karma"  The upshot, of course,  is that as long as you confess to being a hopeless wretch who would be in the cemetery without the program,  you are praised for your strength and honesty.  Express something that doesn't fit in with the program's  world view (or "weltanschaungun" as some prefer to call it),  and you're vilified as a liar in front of a hundred people.  (I only went to one seminar,  but I saw both examples with my own eyes and heard with my own ears).

In the context of a parent seminar at a fine hotel,  one might perhaps experience the foregoing as an opportunity for emotional growth -- or at worst,  a mildly annoying way to spend a weekend.  Consider how your life would change if you had the "benefit" of the program experience (trying to sleep with lights shining in your face, with same boring food, week after week, without the warmth of human companionship, without even the privilege of wearing ordinary shoes,    day after day, months on end,  with no hope of relief until the time you can learn to lie well enough to fake your way out.  

    Come on parents,  wouldn't you be just dying to get in on these seminars? Or perhaps "dying"  is  an unfortunate choice of words...


[ This Message was edited by: scottT on 2003-07-29 21:41 ]

[ This Message was edited by: scottT on 2003-07-29 22:37 ]
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am an angry, wrathful man,  put here to step on the toes of those who dance around the truth (ex WWASPers may acknowledge the sarcasm)

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2003, 02:12:00 AM »
Scott T You wrote "Our facilitator told a person who was a victim of a hit-and-run accident that the damage was entirely her fault, and that she brought it on herself because of her "bad karma"

Your entire post was amusing.  I'm not the same ANON that posted, but I have been through the seminars.  What you obviously didn't get was that you can either believe a facilitator or not. If a facilitator actually said that, which I doubt, it was a test to see if you would actually believe it. I heard that statement, the bad karma thing from someone who had attended a VERY DIFFERENT type of seminar called PSI way back in the 70's) You can stand up for yourself and what YOU believe.  Did you just sit there and say, How dare he/she say that?  Or did you do something about it? I don't believe everything I'm told (or read for that matter)and won't hesitate to take a stand for who I am and what I believe. Funny thing is, we all have this gift...in or out of seminar.
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Offline lynn

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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2003, 11:16:00 AM »
Yesterday we received the July issue of The Source.  It was my intention to copy and paste an article contained in it on this forum, but I was unable to get my computer to perform that function.
The article purports to be the words of a May graduate of Dundee Ranch/Carolina Springs Academy-- the 2 Narvin Litchfield properties.  I was struck by the accompanying photo of the child, head on her mom's shoulder, face devoid of expression. She is standing with her smiling parents and a younger brother. She is not smiling. She appears to be completely without affect or animation.
I will quote from the article.  Anyone interested in reading it in its entirety can go to http://www.wwasps.com, select The Source, July.  It appears on page 15 under the title "Experience...the Best Teacher."

"I have met some awesome people who I know are going to stand for my greatness and who will stand for who I am. I was able to have the experience of going to another Program for three months.  I went to Costa Rico and had many different experiences that I would not have had at CSA.
"When I left for Costa Rico, it was the day before my birthday.  I wanted to spend it with people I knew, and with my family.  However, I had a great experience on my birthday.  I was able to spend it with people I did not know.  I think that it was unique and know I may never experience anything like that again."
She goes on to discuss being on "probation" twice at Dundee-- and how that made her a "stronger" person.
I will limit myself to simply commenting that given what the world now knows about what went on at that time and that place--Dundee after Amberlee Knight left-- the fact that this child survived at all is testimony to her "strength".
But to read her words and see her face is to get punch-in-the-gut sense of what it must have cost her.
This is one article that I really believe was written by a kid.  I have no trouble imagining her speaking those words--head down, voice a dull monotone-- all the life and animation completely sucked out of her...
I was reminded of the words of British journalist Decca Aikenhead, at the close of her "Last Resort" article on Tranquility Bay: "...she looked like the saddest girl in the world."
I can't even speculate as to WWASPS' motive for printing an article of this nature. Is it supposed to SUPPORT the Program??  Maybe Anon could enlighten me.  I feel like I've stumbled into Bizarro World, where everything is reversed.  Also, maybe someone could be more successful in copying the entire (1-page) thing and posting it here?  

[ This Message was edited by: lynn on 2003-07-31 18:05 ]

[ This Message was edited by: lynn on 2003-07-31 18:51 ]
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2003, 11:28:00 AM »
Well, out of curiousity, I had to do some research. I will also share that I attended an 8-day workshop once. I discovered later that the facilitator had taken est/lifespring and incorporated this into the workshop. I won't go into the full details of the experience, but I will say that I think they have good intentions, and I agree with many of their contentions on how humans become distorted based on their life conditioning, but are way off base in the techniques used to facilitate personal growth.

The facilitator required everyone to tell their life story, an hour, which was video taped. After my story, he vicously attacked me for being a "victim". It just so happened that I know some of his past. It took some time after the experience to sort it out, but my conclusion was that my "victim" story was similar to his and had rekindled some old resentments toward a mother who could not protect him from a violent step-father. I got the brunt of that resentment he held toward his mother. Who was the "therapist" here. I felt like I was. I hadn't expected to listen to him vent (unawarely) about his own atrocities.

I went there expecting the facilitator to have done enough work cleaning up his own past to be able to help me with mine. Not vicously attack me because I couldn't tell a story of atrocities, joyfully and humerously. I think that is an admirable goal, but not to be expected of a new participant. And I don't believe that further abusive treatment and humiliation are effective ways to assist. Ultimately, he wasn't responsible for what I felt, and I was able to put things in perspective, but a weaker person may not have.

I could write a few pages on the experience. The bottom line is that I learned alot, but it had little to do with the facilitator's ability. It was more about me learning to trust my own thinking, which is not always rational or accurate. But I have found other, more effective ways of ferreting out wrong beliefs and patterns (habitual actions and reactions).

I do not feel this technique which employed at many programs is beneficial at all for teens, and from what I read, never was intended for "developing egos".

Now to the research. Get this:
EST (now The Forum)/ Lifespring
"I am responsible for the results in my life."

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/mind.htm
Alexander Everett- Mind Dynamics
Mind Dynamics, founded by Alexander Everett, was the major forerunnner of the Large Group Awareness Trainings. Although it was only in existence for a few years, it has certainly sparked an entire industry of similar trainings.
Alexander Everett was from England and arrived in America in 1962 and went to Missouri. "Deciding that the Unity ministry was not his calling, he (Alexander Everett) left Missouri in 1963 and went to Fort Worth, Texas, where he had been invited to help establish a PRIVATE BOARDING SCHOOL.  :eek:  He remained in Texas for seven years. In Texas, he not only helped set up the Fort Worth Country Day School but more importantly, completed the work that led to the founding in 1968 of Mind Dynamics, the experiential human potential training organization that was to become the forerunner of est, Lifespring, Actualizations, and several other human potential training organizations that flourished in the 1970s and continue to do so in the 80s.


When Leadership Dynamics and Mind Dynamics shut down, some of the instructors went out on their own.
·Four of them [Bob White, Randy Revell, Charlene Afremow, John Hanley] founded Lifespring in 1974.
·Another, Werner Erhard, founded est in 1971 which evolved into The Forum.
·Bob White left Lifespring, went to Japan, and started a training organization there called Life Dynamics.
·Randy Revell left Lifespring and founded the Context Trainings.
·Charlene Afremow joined Erhard's organization as a trainer. She later left in a dispute and is now back at Lifespring.
·Howard Nease founded Personal Dynamics.
·Jim Quinn founded Lifestream
·Thomas Willhite founded PSI World Seminars
·Stewart Emery worked for est and later founded Actualizations
·William Penn Patrick's training organization recovered and is known today as Leadership Dynamics.

A few other interesting links:
http://www.caic.org.au/psyther/lifespring/pathology.htm
Pathology as ?Personal Growth?: A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training

http://skepdic.com/landmark.html
The Skeptic?s Dictionary
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2003, 08:37:00 PM »
Quote

On 2003-07-30 23:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"



   Thank you for reading my post. I commend you for having understood my main point and crystalized it into an even better one: If WWASPS say or do outrageous things, perhaps they are merely conducting a "test".  

    I did not go the WWASP seminar "...with an agenda."  (to use Mr. Kay's famous phrase).  
I went to learn and listen.  If personal growth and enlightment was the result,  then great.  I did not go seeking to undermine the authority of the facilitator.  

    Having had the opportunity to observe and evaluate,  I noticed that the parent seminar exhibited --albeit in a mild form  -- many of the characterists of a mind control program (eg., authoritarian control with numerous trivial ground rules, limiting contact with family members by making them sit apart,  increasing suggestibility by inducing fatigue, from enforcing attendance from 8 AM til midnight,  limit and discourage expression of contrary viewpoints, extravagant rewards and praise for compliant behaviors, etc.)  

    For a concise summary of these techniques, Dr. Margaret Singer's work on coercive mind control tactics will sound very familiar (see link at http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html )

   Hey,  if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... odds are it is a duck.  
 
   But getting back to your response,  Life is an unrelenting series of choices -- or "tests" if you prefer.  However, I think what is most important is not how one stands up for what one believes in the sterile, laboratory conditions of a parent seminar-type  "test"; but rather, whether one is willing to stand up for what is right in the real world.

    So class,  here is today's test:  knowing that WWASP employs coercive brain-washing,  and  has been run out of four countries (not counting the pre-WWASP Provo Canyon institution in Utah),  are you willing to stand up  for what is right and pull your child?

   (And yes,  you will receive a grade on this test, if not in this world,  certainly in the next. )
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