Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness

[Anonymous]

So kids with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness then kids with BipolarI or more severe cases of bipolar.

How did you come to this conclusion? You say that "kids with Bipolar II may benefit from wilderness". How do you know this?

The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with your assertion. Since these are the same people making the diagnosis, I find it highly suspect that a non professional can advise parents on how to treat their bipolar child.

Let's read part of the article again.

"We tried this type of confrontation route and very strict discipline and found it simply doesn't work," said Levounis, director of the Addiction Institute of New York and chief of the Division of Addiction Psychiatry at St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals. "It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."

The report's findings that many programs have dangerous conditions and "tremendous side effects" are additional reasons for keeping children with co-occurring mental disorders away from such treatment approaches, he said.

Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.

The article makes no distinction between "severe bipolar" and "mild bipolar" as you claim. Mental illness is mental illness, right? I am still wondering how you came to such a conclusion, that wilderness programs are an effective treatment option for bipolar. You still have yet to answer this simple question.

[psy]

teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness.

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Please explain how a wilderness program is supposed to help with bipolar disorder, exactly. Please also explain what qualifies you to make such claims.

I have yet to see him answer this simple, but very relevant question.

[Anonymous]

Just when I think you can't be more of an asshole, you post again.  Just give it up, Who.  You've been bagged and tagged.  Everyone sees you for exactly who you are.

Now go slink back under the rock you crawled out from.  Better yet, call your daughter and beg her forgiveness, you pathetic excuse for a parent.

sorry to prove you wrong, but the facts are the facts.  I was not rubbing it in.  No need for personal attacks.


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Facts?  What facts?  And thank you in advance for the citations you'll undoubtedly provide for such, ahem....."facts".

I didn't think you were rubbing anything in, as you have nothing TO rub.  But whatever you gotta tell yourself dude.  The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you're trying to assuage your guilt.  Damn, it must be overwhelming at times.

[Anonymous]

I am still wondering how you came to such a conclusion, that wilderness programs are an effective treatment option for bipolar. You still have yet to answer this simple question.

Come on now...give the guy a break.  You're gonna confuse him with those pesky SOURCED facts.

[psy]

sorry to prove you wrong, but the facts are the facts.  I was not rubbing it in.  No need for personal attacks.


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Facts?  What facts?[/quote]

Well.  He stated he presented facts to support his opinions... so most parents (who wouldn't have time to read the whole thread) would simply accept what he said as true.  A few pages on, this exact same topic will be brought up again, you'll ask him to present facts, and he'll claim he already did "a few pages back" (but of course never link to any post).  Big lie propoganda.  Worked for Hitler (among others).  Can't argue with results.

[Anonymous]

If your son or daughter has bipolar I would suggest you speak to their paediatrician before considering placing them in a wilderness program (or doing anything on your own).  

What a medical doctor has to say about wilderness programs claiming to treat depression. Peer reviewed and sourced.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001518.htm

Adolescent depression
Benjamin W. Van Voorhees, MD, MPH, Assistant Professor of Medicine, Pediatrics and Psychiatry, The University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.

Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."

These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.

Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."

Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.

Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.

[TheWho]

They claimed that they don't take kids with "severe mental illnesses" anymore there in Utah, but Then they claim that it can really help in kids with Bi-polar disorder...

Okay lets look at it one more time.  Going back and looking at DP post she says that they don’t take kids with “severe mental disorders” but they can help kids with bi-polar which she goes on to describe as severe based on her experience.
If you read up on Bi-polar you will find that it can be severe or mild.  So the program can accept kids with bi-polar disorder and still meet the requirement of not accepting kids with severe mental disorders as long as the child has a mild form such as BipolarII or Cyclothymia.  So their claim that they can help kids with bi-polar is valid and meets both criteria.  So we could conclude that kids with a milder form of bi-polar would benefit better then say a kid with severe bi-polar, otherwise the wilderness would be excepting both mild and severe.

If you feel they would both benefit equally then that is open for debate.  But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.


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[Anonymous]

But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.

Of COURSE they "feel" that way.  It means more kids, which means more $$$$.  Neither they nor you will provide any shred of proof of such a claim.

[Anonymous]

The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with you TheWho. Which leads me back to my original question, what leads you to make a statement that counters their professional experience and advice? Why should parents trust you over the advice of doctors who specialize in adolescent psychiatry? I'm still waiting for a proper answer to this very simple inquiry.

You claim a milder form of bipolar would be treated effectively in a wilderness program. What qualifies you to make this claim?

This is what an adolescent psychiatrist has to say about the effectiveness of wilderness programs treating conduct disorder. Yet another professional, peer reviewed individual who disagrees with you TheWho. Please explain why I should trust you, over their professional advice.
 

Conduct disorder

Timothy A. Rogge, MD, private practice in Psychiatry, Kirkland, Washington. Also reviewed by David Zieve, MD, MHA, Medical Director, A.D.A.M., Inc.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000919.htm

Treatment  

Successful treatment requires close involvement of the child's family. Parents can learn techniques to help manage their child's problem behavior.

In cases of abuse, the child may need to be removed from the family and placed in a less chaotic environment. Treatment with medications or talk therapy may be used for depression and attention-deficit disorder, which commonly accompany conduct disorder.

Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.

If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs. They are not regulated in many states.

[Anonymous]

 So we could conclude that kids with a milder form of bi-polar would benefit better then say a kid with severe bi-polar, otherwise the wilderness would be excepting both mild and severe.

If you feel they would both benefit equally then that is open for debate.  But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.


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Only you have concluded that, TheWho, counter to the advice of the American Psychiatric Association, and many independent professionals and peer reviewed doctors.

"It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."

Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.

[/b]


On what basis do you claim these professionals are incorrect in their peer reviewed assessment?

[TheWho]

The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with you TheWho. Which leads me back to my original question, what leads you to make a statement that counters their professional experience and advice? Why should parents trust you over the advice of doctors who specialize in adolescent psychiatry? I'm still waiting for a proper answer to this very simple inquiry.

Parents should consult their pediatrician and never just trust anyone on the internet to make their final decision.

You claim a milder form of bipolar would be treated effectively in a wilderness program. What qualifies you to make this claim?

To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form.  If they could both be treated just as effectively then the programs would be excepting both forms, but this particular program is not... read the OP.  

This is what an adolescent psychiatrist has to say about the effectiveness of wilderness programs treating conduct disorder. Yet another professional, peer reviewed individual who disagrees with you TheWho. Please explain why I should trust you, over their professional advice.

Like I said, no one should trust information which is read on the internet.  It is a great place to discuss issues, but I would consult your child’s doctor first.  He is a professional and knows your child better than any of us do.



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[Anonymous]

To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form.  If they could both be treated just as effectively then the programs would be excepting both forms, but this particular program is not... read the OP.  

We hear you that you believe that to be true.  What we're asking is if you have any peer reviewed studies or any facts at all to support that assumption.  Especially in light of the studies that have been posted here today.  Do you or do you not?

[Anonymous]

To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form.

See, that was't that difficult was it?

So, the reason why you claim that wilderness programs can treat "milder" forms of bipolar, is because "it just makes sense" to you.

I'm sure parents will take this advice for what it is worth. Thank you again for making your reasoning more clear to the rest of us.

Countless peer reviewed studies and professional advice vs. "it just makes sense to TheWho". Really difficult one there.  

[TheWho]

See, that was't that difficult was it?

So, the reason why you claim that wilderness programs can treat "milder" forms of bipolar, is because "it just makes sense" to you.

You are close, it makes sense to me that milder forms can be treated more effectively than severe forms.

I'm sure parents will take this advice for what it is worth. Thank you again for making your reasoning more clear to the rest of us.

Your welcome.  Sometimes it takes a few repeated posts to clarify a persons intent or reasoning.  But it is worth the time in the end when an understanding is reached.

Countless peer reviewed studies and professional advice vs. "it just makes sense to TheWho". Really difficult one there

Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly and also speak with other parents who have had kids attend wilderness.  I would not rely on internet forums like this one alone.



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[Anonymous]

You are close, it makes sense to me that milder forms can be treated more effectively than severe forms.



Your welcome.  Sometimes it takes a few repeated posts to clarify a persons intent or reasoning.  But it is worth the time in the end when an understanding is reached.


Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly and also speak with other parents who have had kids attend wilderness.  I would not rely on internet forums like this one alone.



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And again, this thread is a perfect example of why nothing you say can be trusted and why people resent your presence here.  Not only do you flat out lie, distort and twist pretty much everything that is said, but you go about it in such a condescending tone.  No one is honestly 'thanking you', yet you feel compelled to throw in the little dig....'you're welcome'.   And "you're close".  And driving home YOUR point?   HA!  No, it drives home the point that you state your opinions as fact and when you get called on it, you move the goalposts, set up strawmen and in general backpeddle all the way home.

I maintain that it shows how absolutely desperate you are to justify what you did to your daughter.  When presented with clear and absolute facts you simply cannot or will not accept them because that would mean that you were really, really, really, really wrong in what you did to your family.  I don't pity you, as the other poster suggested.  I pity your daughter.  I pity anyone who is forced to deal with you on a daily basis.  I feel nothing but utter contempt for you and what you've done and what you continue to support in the face of so much evidence to the contrary.

You're an arrogant. smug little man who is crying out for attention.  Again, maybe if you just fell to your knees and apologized to your daughter you may begin to feel some relief.  Until then, I'm afraid you'll continue your vain attempts at convincing people (yourself really) that what you did was right and true.