StrugglingTeens changes their tune

[TheWho]

Lets be clear.  I have no concern about being criticized by the group or anyone who posts here. I am not nearly that insecure.

Great, you wouldn’t believe how many people gravitate to the group position just to be part of the majority.  You didn’t seem like the type to run for shelter.

And I have no interest in your comments about my having an open mind.  I really do not have an open mind about this at all anymore then you do.

That’s too bad, MIS, I consider myself open minded to the point that I believe there are good programs as well as bad ones.  To consider yourself close minded I think is a shame, but to eachs own, I guess.

…except that if you would point me to a facility that treats conditions that I can understand with methods that are describable in clear terms and that makes available information about their success rate (that is other then testimonials from a few satisfied parents) I would be happy to consider the efficacy of that facility. Until then I am pretty comfortable with my firmly held belief that the industry that you espouse does not stand for anything and has a floating set of principles that is based on very little of value.

Well, I am sorry to hear that

So lets get back to specifics because now that we have established that neither the industry you defend or you can provide a set of basic standards I must ask the next logical question.

It is, for the most part, an unregulated industry so you will not see any basic set of standards.  I think that was the problem you were having with your 10 items of compliance.  Many schools meet many of the items on your list but I don’t think any one school meets all of them.  I think your list is reasonable and most schools would agree with you also, I would imagine…. They were not far off the norm.

 

What are its guiding principles?  What are the common denominators? Is there an industry organization that publishes anything that will give me what I am asking for?

I am not an expert on the industry any more than you are, but the common denominators might be to meet the needs of as many at-risk teens as they can and to bring families back into balance again.  What I typically suggest is to see a local therapist with your child and they can assess which (if any) school would be a good next step.  Each school/program is different and each have their own strengths.

The reality who is that you have frustrated people on this site because they often speak in absolutes and you respond with a little of this and a little of that and come across sounding reasonable.

I agree with you, I just don’t believe in absolutes… I don’t think that all staff people are evil or abusive… that all schools are abusive or that every child does poorly.  I am more realistic because I have enough experience in industry (and life) to know this is not how it is.  There are good people and bad people in all walks of life, many of these schools help a tremendous amount of at-risk teenagers and turn their lives around and bring their families into balance again.
I have not been damaged by the industry so I can have a more open minded approach to each school.

 

I am not interested in how you sound.

That is good, so it seems you are a little more open minded than you think you are. 

 

You advocate for an industry that useslanguage artfully to cover up the absence of a scientific or studied basis for its claims and often hurts kids and families as a result.  I am interested in specifics.

I cannot agree with you here.  I don’t advocate for the entire industry.. I recognize that some of these schools need to be regulated.  Fornits focuses primarily on the children who have been hurt by the industry and I understand this and believe something should be done about it.. what I don’t agree with is trying to close down the good with the bad because that would be harming a great number of children.  The last thing we want to do is harm more children.  There needs to be a rational voice to be used as a benchmark in determining which schools are helpful and which are not.

And in regard to your request that I identify myself I would be glad to provide all the details you want including my name and connection to these issues if you will do the same.

Ha,Ha,Ha, many people think the same thing.  By getting yourself a log-in name you are not revealing who you are and do not have to give your name and address/phone number.  I go by “TheWho” … you could chose a name and log-in account and still be totally anonymous.  I would never ask anyone for personal information.



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[Anonymous]

NO go who.
YOu are saying nothing of value.
What facilities  that do what are good?
What schools that dow aht are bad?
HOw can you tell one form another?
I haveno doubt that sincere people go to work at some of tehse facilities.  I am sure that oncludes facilities that you think are not good by whatever standard you use.
As long as you say nothing specific this is a game you are playing in which the absolutes from the people that you frustrate compete with the cotton candy that you offer.

[TheWho]

NO go who.
YOu are saying nothing of value.
What facilities  that do what are good?

There are some programs which are careful on who they accept into their program and try to make a clear understanding of what their program does and how they intend to help a particular child.  They have therapists who see the child weekly and are independent from the schools (paid separately) and they report back to the Childs therapist at home (if they have one).  They work hard to bring the families together by having the families visit the school and work with their child… Parents can visit the schools and walk the campus, speak with other children at random, have lunch with them.

What schools that dow aht are bad?

If you read a little bit more here you will learn about schools like straight which acted more like a cult and was only interested in building their population and keeping families apart, not building self esteem and not encouraging the kids to grow and become independent…..

HOw can you tell one form another?

By listening to the graduates and parents who have sent their children to various schools.. by reading here on fornits.

I haveno doubt that sincere people go to work at some of tehse facilities.  I am sure that oncludes facilities that you think are not good by whatever standard you use.

Well good for you, you have separated yourself from many here and I believe you think more independently than you give yourself credit for.   I believe 99% of all people wake up in the morning and want to do a good job.. very few people set out to intentionally screw up or hurt people.

As long as you say nothing specific this is a game you are playing in which the absolutes from the people that you frustrate compete with the cotton candy that you offer.

Well if this is a game for me than it is a very time consuming one with no apparent winner thus far.  I see it more as educating parents.  Most of what you read here are specific examples of kids who had a bad experience with the industry and from their vantage point they visualize that what they experienced applies to everyone else and that every school is the same and every child has a bad time of it.

I know this not to be true.. many kids should not be sent to RTC’s or TBS’s because they are being set up for failure… the key is to get the right child matched with the right school…. Take a more proactive position and try to help the kids instead of throwing anger around and trying to tear places down… the abusive places will expose themselves in time (with the help of graduates and parents).  But we cant take our eyes off the ones that are helping our young kids and doing right by them.  Both sides need to be represented here and I try to fill those shoes.. although not very effectively some times…Ha,Ha,Ha, I must humbly admit.



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[Anonymous]

we are making some progress who.  You have told me that straight was bad - I know something about straight- and that a school that has outside therapists and involves the family is good.  I agree with you that having unaffiliated therapists and involving the family is a good thing.  Then I am sure you also agree with me that the facility should be located as close to the child's home as possible so as to facilitate the parent's involvement.  Do you?  It is unrealistic to think the parents can be involved in a serious way if they live on the other side of the country.  Isn't it?
I also believe that you can count on one hand the number of facilities that utilize unaffiliated therapists.  I did not know there were any.That is not true of the overwhelming majority of the facilities you tout.  What are other characteristics of the good facilities?
I am happy to make the unaffiliated therapist # 1 on the list of standards I will help you come up with.

[TheWho]

we are making some progress who.  You have told me that straight was bad - I know something about straight- and that a school that has outside therapists and involves the family is good.  I agree with you that having unaffiliated therapists and involving the family is a good thing.  Then I am sure you also agree with me that the facility should be located as close to the child's home as possible so as to facilitate the parent's involvement.  Do you?  It is unrealistic to think the parents can be involved in a serious way if they live on the other side of the country.  Isn't it?

The closer the better, I agree, although I don’t know how this could be controlled.  I was fortunate because my daughter attended a school within our own state, but there were many parents from the west coast and even over seas.  But they did show up for the family sessions and were involved.  It is very difficult, but contrary to the popular belief here on fornits the parents are dedicated to bringing the familys back together.
You will read many posts that parents just want to send their kids away so they can take a vacation which shows how out much misinformation is distributed here.

I also believe that you can count on one hand the number of facilities that utilize unaffiliated therapists.  I did not know there were any.That is not true of the overwhelming majority of the facilities you tout. 

What do you mean facilities I tout?  Which ones did you think I tout?

What are other characteristics of the good facilities?  I am happy to make the unaffiliated therapist # 1 on the list of standards I will help you come up with.
 

I think another would be unmonitored phone conversations with their parent(s).  Modes of discipline should be spelled out and made clear to the parents also.



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[Anonymous]

allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents

Can we agree that any decent facility will provide a diagnosis and then provide care which is within the standard of care or at least only evidence based treatment for individuals who have that diagnosis

Any more?

[TheWho]

allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents

Can we agree that any decent facility will provide a diagnosis and then provide care which is within the standard of care or at least only evidence based treatment for individuals who have that diagnosis

Any more?

I would reword it to say that each child should see a licensed therapist prior to entering a TBS and have the consent or recommendation by the therapist.  The therapist could decide if a particular model would be beneficial for the child.  The reason I state that is typically most of the routine therapies have failed to help the child at this point and the last resort is a TBS.  I feel the school should be as clinically based as possible, though.

I think another would be a fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc.



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[Anonymous]

I have no idea what you mean when you use the word model.  There are conditions and illnesses that adolescents sometimes have and there are evidence based and standard of care methods for treating them.  Give me an example of a "model."  That sounds like jargon. The clinical director of straight used the word model a lot.  It impressed parents and that was its only function.  Also, are you saying that it is not important to have the treatment at the facility supervised by someone from outside the facility.  Perhaps you can rewrite # 1 so that you feel comfortable with it.  Just try not to make it too general
Regarding a predetermined length of stay-  That sounds like a good idea- what would that be based on?  Would it be the recommended length of time for treatment of the specific condition or illness or something else.  What would the something else be?

[TheWho]

I have no idea what you mean when you use the word model.  There are conditions and illnesses that adolescents sometimes have and there are evidence based and standard of care methods for treating them.  Give me an example of a "model."  That sounds like jargon. The clinical director of straight used the word model a lot.  It impressed parents and that was its only function.

The term is widely used throughout many industries.  The model would be the definition of the general program steps and procedures.  It may include items like length of stay, disciplinary procedures, structure of each day, academic structure  etc.

 

Also, are you saying that it is not important to have the treatment at the facility supervised by someone from outside the facility.  Perhaps you can rewrite # 1 so that you feel comfortable with it.  Just try not to make it too general

It is fine the way it is.  I like the idea of having someone independent from the school perform the individual therapy.

Regarding a predetermined length of stay-  That sounds like a good idea- what would that be based on?  Would it be the recommended length of time for treatment of the specific condition or illness or something else.  What would the something else be?

No the length of stay for everyone.  Each school or program would have a fixed length of stay.  The parents and child would be informed as to how long they can expect to be there.  Some kids take longer than others so there would have to be some latitude there.
So :
#3 A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.



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[Anonymous]

I get it who.  when you use the word model you simply mean the program and rules used by the facility you are talking about.  Ok- I just want to keep it simple.
Are we in agreement that all treatment should be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standrad of care for whatever specific condition or illness is being treated. Can we add that as # 3- All treatment should be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care for whatever specific condition or illness is being treated.  #4- all programs should have clearly spelled out lengths of treatment

How is that?

[TheWho]

#3 each child should see a licensed therapist prior to entering a TBS and have the consent or recommendation by the therapist. 

This will allow the therapist to review the schools procedures and model to determine if it is a good fit.  Many times all the standard procedures have been tried and have failed.  A TBS can offer something that is outide the norm.


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[Anonymous]

so you don't agree that treatment should be evidence based and consistent with standards of care but you think that is ok as long as a referring therapist approves the treatment?  Would you agree that unless there is a referral form an outside and  unaffiliated therapist the treatment must be evidence based and consistent with the standard of care?
How about #4 - unless the treatment is specificallapproved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with nay applicable standard of care.  That is reasonable isn't it?
One more thing who:
wouldn't a therapist that approved a treatment plan that was not evidence based and not consistent with the standards of care be guilty of what people call malpractice? 
And don't you think that facilities should explicitly tell parents that their treatment is outside the norm and is not evidence based?  Aren't parents entitled to that?
And don't you think that if facilities use treatment that is not evidence based it is that much more important that they publish their results and have outsiders evaluate them?

[wdtony]

allright who. We really are moving along. I appreciate it.
We have two principles we can agree on
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents

Can we agree that any decent facility will provide a diagnosis and then provide care which is within the standard of care or at least only evidence based treatment for individuals who have that diagnosis

Any more?

I would reword it to say that each child should see a licensed therapist prior to entering a TBS and have the consent or recommendation by the therapist.  The therapist could decide if a particular model would be beneficial for the child.  The reason I state that is typically most of the routine therapies have failed to help the child at this point and the last resort is a TBS.  I feel the school should be as clinically based as possible, though.

I think another would be a fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc.



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Please mention any program or school that you believe is "good". Also, indicate why you believe this and supply detailed information about why it is good.

Are there any programs or schools that you support that allow the parent(s) and teen to communicate with each other at any time they wish in private and in person from day one? Also will these programs or schools allow the teen to leave with their parents for any reason deemed appropriate by the parent(s) without staff being present from day one?

From the research I have conducted, I cannot find "good" programs or schools specifically intended for the treatment of adolescents. Do you have any proof of these "good" programs or schools whom you defend?

You may have listed this information on some other post, so you will forgive me if these requests are redundant.

These questions are not rhetorical, I am truly interested in your responses.

If some parents wish to opt-out and send their adolescents to an expensive parenting service, I don't have a problem with that. There will always be irresponsible parents looking for the easy way out. The problem I have is that wherever these adolescents are dropped off, they seem to lose all respect and dignity as young people. They lose their rights and are abused. In these cases, the blame falls onto the program or school if the parent has been deceived. In these cases, the parent is only guilty of ignorance. In other words, if a parent wants to send their adolescent to a program or school that treats the youth with respect and offers freedom from any abuses, I am willing to offer my interest. Strict government regulation would be a good first step to insure this type of dignified parenting service is fair and ethical.

When you get old and cannot take care of yourself, remember that your child might have the decision to take care of you at home or send you away to a nursing home, a nursing home where the advertised care is abundant and the truth is pain and isolation. If you could see the nursing homes I have seen, you would understand. This is not an issue of "troubled teens", this is an issue of a social epidemic.

[Oz girl]

Ive come to this discussion kind of late and as usual it has been derailed. But in response to Zen's original post, ST had always in theory been opposed to boot camps. (in spite of letting them advertise)
 When Michelle Sutton died he did an editorial stating that what she went to was not "wilderness therapy" but a boot camp and that this was why some other kids of the era like Kirsten Chase also suffered similar fates. i dont know how he defined it as such as it did not according to Mrs Sutton have any paramilitary aspect. The trouble is that since those days so may kids have died in the industry so it has become harder for him to try and explain the difference. Here is the article Zen if you are interested
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews02.html

[TheWho]

so you don't agree that treatment should be evidence based and consistent with standards of care but you think that is ok as long as a referring therapist approves the treatment?  Would you agree that unless there is a referral form an outside and  unaffiliated therapist the treatment must be evidence based and consistent with the standard of care?

The point I was trying to make is many times all the standard treatments have been tried and failed.  The last resort is to try something new, something “outside of the box”.  So I believe the parents should get the opinions of professionals before deciding on which TBS to send their child to.  The TBS’s should not engage in shock therapy, prescribe medications or use restraints etc. without the consent of the parents… this should be know up front.  So we should give the schools some latitude to try different approaches to various problems.

How about #4 - unless the treatment is specificallapproved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with nay applicable standard of care.  That is reasonable isn't it?

Yes, that may cover it.  This way the school has some latitude to try new  approaches.

One more thing who:
wouldn't a therapist that approved a treatment plan that was not evidence based and not consistent with the standards of care be guilty of what people call malpractice? 

Unfortunately they are always exposed to malpractice, it is the world we live in.  If a doctor suggests that a patient should join a team sport in high school as a way to alleviate depression or raise self esteem and that child gets seriously hurt then the doctor is exposed to a law suit unless he can show long term clinical studies to back up his proposed treatment.

And don't you think that facilities should explicitly tell parents that their treatment is outside the norm and is not evidence based?  Aren't parents entitled to that?

No I don’t think it should be phrased that way.  They should talk a little bit about what they do and explain how successful or unsuccessful they have been with past students/families.

And don't you think that if facilities use treatment that is not evidence based it is that much more important that they publish their results and have outsiders evaluate them?

Sure, that would be great I am always one to push for more data.  But if they are not required to then there would have to be a reason to do it.  They could always collect the data and only make it known to prospective parents.



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