psy

[Ursus]

Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.

You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here.  You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."

You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld!  Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!

The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.

Bullshit.  The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.

There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen?  I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire.  But you kept it up.  Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.

I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles.  I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation.  You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with.  One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.

FAIR??  Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Mike & Ursus
I don't know either of you nor do I know anything about Hyde. It sounds like you have plenty in common. It would be encouraging to see you collaborate on that. By Ursus's description above it sounds like you both locked horns and stalemated eachother. Again, I don't know either of you and I'm not sure what my point is, but the thought of (mentioned above) of Mike stalking Ursus (whether it's true or not) seems pointless.

Isn't Fornits first and foremost a place for former students to vent? Isn't that the definition of a forum?


For those of you who can't respect the concept of free speech, for those of you who can't stand the idea of former student's gathering and exchanging dialouge you really ought to consider moving to North Korea. Or maybe fire up your time machine and head for one of the many fantastic places where free speech was punishable by death.You might not like what's said here but it ain't your sandbox. Go back to your sandbox and keep on not sharing your toys.

[Anonymous]

Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.

You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here.  You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."

Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.

You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld!  Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!

What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.

The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.

Bullshit.  The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.

What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.

There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen?  I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire.  But you kept it up.  Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.

The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles.  I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation.  You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with.  One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.

As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.

FAIR??  Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.

Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.

[Ursus]

Let's get back to the point here, namely:

Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally.  We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark.  If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death.

McDonalds doesn't advertise McDepressionTreatment.

All of these places claim "cures" for all sorts of ills and misbehaviors, yet – at the very least – some of these ills are made worse.  I'm saying it that way in an attempt to be broadminded, although I personally do not think anyone is helped by these places.  I think it is mostly varying degrees of damage we are dealing with here.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.

Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.

It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.

My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.

I am curious.  Was the suicide advertised in the paper?  Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?

What are you cruious about?

[dishdutyfugitive]

double post

[TheWho]

Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.

Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.

It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.

My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.

I am curious.  Was the suicide advertised in the paper?  Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?

What are you curious about?

You should have continued reading.  He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.

[Anonymous]

huh?

Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.

look, for example,  i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated

That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.

But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though.  :wink: )

Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.

Your conclusion makes no logical sense from your supposition

Look bitch, my best friend went into program a happy outgoing girl was "ruined" by program, and promptly killed herself. I went from being "normal" to SERIOUSLY mentally ill. I had a personality split, "autism"- a constant trance like state that lasted almost two years, suicial obsession..and other issues i won't get into. STOP THE BULLSHIT. TORURE DESIGNED TO DESTROY THE BRAIN ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS IN DESTROYING THE BRAIN. Go away troll

And i doubt that beleif you have about Hyde.
Ursus, want to answer some questions? I don't really understand hyde anyway. It doesn't sound like a program, exactly.

Okay, Mike and Guest...  The issue of suicide has been discussed but spottily on the Hyde forum, but it has been brought up.  I think people are ashamed/embarrassed; it is a difficult subject to broach. It would appear as though one of the coping mechanisms for surviving the Hyde bullshit is to incorporate a certain amount of arrogance or braggadocio into one's persona.  I think we've seen this again and again, even with otherwise very personable sorts.  Perhaps this might help to make the incidence of suicide less?  I don't know...

To my knowledge, there was only one case of an actual death at Hyde, and this was during the 1987-88 school year.  The causal factor was attributed to an enlarged heart.  Incidentally, this was also the cause attributed to the kid who died after being in the Ring at Elan.

I think the "danger period" for suicide is actually in the ten or so years after you get out, when what you've been indoctrinated in for the past several years meets the "real world," and the juxtaposition of the two do not comport.  I think program puts you in the frame of mind to judge things as absolutes, much like AA does regarding one's drinking or falling off the wagon.  Joe Gauld used to say that if you can't make it at Hyde, then you can't make it anywhere.  The corollary being, of course, that if you fail at Hyde, you've failed at life.

As to actual bonafide cases, NC's death was rumored to have at the least a very great assist from suicidal intentions.  I don't think she was in great shape when she came to Hyde; circumstances prior to her enrollment would have suggested some serious and nurturing therapy, and that is certainly not what she got at Hyde.  You know that she had tried before she even got to Hyde, Mike?  SF also tried a few years post-Hyde; that was definitely tied into what happened to her there.  There are a couple of other kids who went through some serious rough spots, but those kids are either dead due to "other causes" or I've lost track of them.  I've lost track of most of them so the fact that I can even bring up some says something.  And then there is myself, of course.

It is at this point, Mike, that you usually do your typical about-face and try to skewer me for my words, and you might as well go right ahead; have at it, buddy.  I don't give a shit.  I think the mere fact that you are trying to poke holes in Benchmark's culpability in George's death just about says it all, as per where you are coming from.

I've read a few posts of other Hyde kids that intimated consideration of this route, but I don't actually know those people well enough to vouch for that.  Again, it is really hard to track cases, 'cuz people that don't do well there tend to disappear.  And I don't think this kind of stuff usually shows up immediately after you get out.  For a while, you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to "prove them wrong."  Then... reality, and fatality, sets in.

As to Guest's question about Hyde being a program or not, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.  My opinion is that it most definitely is.  It fucks with your mind and sucks out any capacity to critically assess the relative value of your life's experiences.  Perhaps not everyone that went to Hyde feels that way, but I found it to be a very crippling influence on my life.  There is no doubt in my mind that I would have lived my life differently, and more fully, had I not gone to Hyde.  And that is about the most pathetic understatement I can come up with today.

Take it from Vanda M, "recent" Hyde graduate, Landmark Forum devotee, and currently enthralled with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment:  "I've been involved in cults all my life, ha ha!" (spoken in a 2006 radio interview vis a vis Hyde, and her going back for her diploma nigh 30 years after her last attendance there).

No, no. I wouldn't say hyde isn't a program. I just don't know much about it.

The idea that no one has committed suicide unless the topic it has been mentioned on fornits is too nonsensical to give further consideration.

I put the number of program related deaths in the 10s of thousands. A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment". The proportion of death will increase in relation to  how abusive the program is, psychologically. The Cedus, Desistos, Elans, etc on top. I think the more intensively  peers are used to abuse peers and therefore the more "confusing", the more "culty" as opposed to merely "cruel" the worse the long tems effects are going to be.

[dishdutyfugitive]

1. Kept reading what? His question was the last sentence of his post.

2. He qouted my statement and put "lost 3 family members to suicide" in bold.

Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.

Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.

It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.

My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.

I am curious.  Was the suicide advertised in the paper?  Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?

What are you curious about?

You should have continued reading.  He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.

[Anonymous]

Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.

You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here.  You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."

Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.

You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld!  Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!

What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.

The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.

Bullshit.  The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.

What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.

There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen?  I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire.  But you kept it up.  Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.

The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles.  I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation.  You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with.  One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.

As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.

FAIR??  Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.

Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.

Jesus Christ! I see you're putting your Hyde character assination skills to good use. That's what group was like, i bet. Your nastiness to someone who is quite polite to you, despite your weird trolling, is evidence of how screwy YOU are. Whether by Hyde or some character defect.

Ursus post NC's full name. There's shame in death. Is the death related to hyde?

[Anonymous]

Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.

You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here.  You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."

Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.

You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld!  Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!

What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.

The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.

Bullshit.  The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.

What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.

There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen?  I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire.  But you kept it up.  Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.

The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles.  I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation.  You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with.  One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.

As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.

FAIR??  Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.

Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.

Jesus Christ! I see you're putting your Hyde character assination skills to good use. That's what group was like, i bet. Your nastiness to someone who is quite polite to you, despite your weird trolling, is evidence of how screwy YOU are. Whether by Hyde or some character defect.

Ursus post NC's full name. There's shame in death. Is the death related to hyde?

Oops. That's supposed to be "no"  shame in death

[TheWho]

1. Kept reading what? His question was the last sentence of his post.

2. He qouted my statement and put "lost 3 family members to suicide" in bold.

Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.

Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.

It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.

My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.

I am curious.  Was the suicide advertised in the paper?  Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?

What are you curious about?

You should have continued reading.  He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.

When your family members took their own lives was it placed in the papers?  Was the cause of death stated and was there a little something about their accomplishments in life?

[dishdutyfugitive]

I don't know you.


You think I'm going to share these personal details in a public forum?

Death and greif are a peronsal matter.

Wait, correction, unless you're a teenager who doesn't know any better or have the experience to know proper  protocol you can bugger off. If you are a teenager that doesn't know any better (I've been there) or a genuine person who happened to misphrase the question ask yourself the following:


Would you share that information if you were in my shoes?


1. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members suicide was placed in the papers?

2. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members cause of death (suicide) was made public information?


3. What interest do you have in whether or not the local paper had a little piece about my family members accomplishmens in  their life? Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.


I'm trying to be fair but you're really pushing it.

You want details ?

Pony up and put some skin in the game.


And if you are genuine, welcome aboard. PM me and we'll talk.

[stina]

Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally.  We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark.  If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death. ...

With each post it just becomes more and more obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. Are you fucking kidding me with this? Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.

[Ursus]

No, no. I wouldn't say hyde isn't a program. I just don't know much about it.

The idea that no one has committed suicide unless the topic it has been mentioned on fornits is too nonsensical to give further consideration.

I put the number of program related deaths in the 10s of thousands. A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment". The proportion of death will increase in relation to  how abusive the program is, psychologically. The Cedus, Desistos, Elans, etc on top. I think the more intensively  peers are used to abuse peers and therefore the more "confusing", the more "culty" as opposed to merely "cruel" the worse the long tems effects are going to be.

Interesting way to describe it.  I agree with you.  I think the more they are able to worm into your mind, the longer it takes to get them out.  Oft times it seems those are programs that masquerade as being "semi-normal with a twist" these days.  Not entirely of course, but that insidious warping is much harder to recognize and hence, remove and recover from.  

Of course, controlling the milieu, by having the kids in an environment engineered to produce conformity, if not complete submission, is how they get away with so much.  It doesn't always matter whether there are walls or not.

Some of it is also relative to the cultural awareness of the time.  If a nun were to smack a kid on the knuckles these days, the accompanying sermon would carry a great deal less weight than it used to, simply because the smack would be recognized as being blatantly abusive.  But back in the day, that was less recognized.

And I think it also depends on the kid.  We all have our own fragilities, in some areas more than others.

A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment".

Yeah, let's not forget about self-destructive lifestyles that end up in death.  Some of those "lifestyles" are directly the result of program.