passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive

[try another castle]

...but there seems to be a fourth one, one that I've noticed as one of my worse faults.

Let's review:

Passive: I don't count, you count
Aggressive: I count, you don't count
Passive-aggressive: I count, but I'm not going to tell you that I do. (i.e. you have to figure it out.)


So this fourth one that I've noticed sounds something like this:

I think I count, but I'm not sure, so I don't know what to tell you.


And then the back and forth goes on in my mind. Do I say "no, I'm not ok with that." and risk coming off like a jerk? Or do I say "sure, that's fine." even though it's not fine. Is it wrong for it to be not fine? Am I being unreasonable?

The end result of this is me coming off like a typical Libra... "oh, sure it's fine. well, I mean, I kind of wanted to do this, but I could never impose that you shouldn't. I mean..." blah blah blah.

It all comes from shame. Shame that I should feel a need for something, and be vocal about it. But also not wanting to come off dishonest, so I create this tiny personal crisis where I won't even admit to myself what it is I truly need, so I won't seem like a jerk when I don't get it because I didn't fucking ask for it in the first place.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

The way I see it, if aggressive, passive and passive-aggressive were three points on a triangle, this fucker would be right in the middle. One third passive, one third aggressive and one third passive-aggressive.

So I'm trying to think up a term for this, like passive-passive-aggressive-aggressive? Indecisive-passive-aggressive? Just plain annoying? Anyone have any suggestions, here?

Please share if you have similar experiences with boundaries. I'm wondering if this is simply a human thing, or a survivor thing, or, most likely, a thing for people who were raised to think that their wants and needs weren't important, even in their thoughts.

[AuntieEm]

A human thing, I'd say, though we suffer from it in varying degrees. Interpersonal relationships are hard (see every work of fiction ever written), harder for some than others. Whom to trust with what information is a balancing act for all of us.

From what you all have said about the CEDU experience (if I understand you correctly), there were no boundaries on what you were supposed to disclose. Often. To everyone.

"No boundaries" is, IMO, inherently unhealthy.

I assume we are not talking about "I want ham and swiss" v "I want tuna fish" here. I gather you are fundamentally talking about those times when we don't share what it is we really feel or want. Complicated. A lot depends on whom you're dealing with and how much you trust that person, what's at risk or to be gained... Complicated. Very human that this should be difficult. It's okay to fail, and we do.

But you need to know where your fuck-off point is, and you are entitled to insist on holding to it, holding your boundaries. The corallary is that you must repect others' boundaries as well.  

Japanese proverb:
Fall down seven times, stand up eight.

Auntie Em

[try another castle]

I assume we are not talking about "I want ham and swiss" v "I want tuna fish" here. I gather you are fundamentally talking about those times when we don't share what it is we really feel or want. Complicated. A lot depends on whom you're dealing with and how much you trust that person, what's at risk or to be gained... Complicated. Very human that this should be difficult. It's okay to fail, and we do.

A perfect example of me doing this was when a good friend and I were going to spend my birthday together. Up until that point, we had not had any one on one time to hang out before.

When we initially planned this, I assumed her boyfriend, whom I also like a lot, would join us, and I thought that would be fun. But as the week wore on I became more attached to the idea of just her and I hanging out.

She texts me about half a day before we are to meet, asking if her boyfriend can come along. My initial reaction was "sure", but then I thought about how little time she and I get to hang out, because we are both so busy, and I waffled. It came off exactly like it did in my example in the first post. "Well,  um, I can't ask that of you." That kind of thing. Fortunately, she is sharp, and realized that I felt bad about drawing a boundary, so she said "Why don't just you and I hang out?"

Later I apologized and let her know what was going on and why I was being such an indecisive bitch about it. She and I later actually had quite a discussion on passive aggressive behavior in general.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Auntie Em

I want a Ham & Tuna on toasted sourboundarydough. I'd also like a rhubarb & atlantic cod hot pocket with nicotine flavored parmesean cheese sprinkles.


Castle

These passive aggressive permutation calculations are symptomatic of switching from Geico to Progressive.

I couldn't resist.


"You can't change the wind but you can change your course."

[Anonymous]

Let's review:

Passive: I don't count, you count
Aggressive: I count, you don't count
Passive-aggressive: I count, but I'm not going to tell you that I do. (i.e. you have to figure it out.)


So this fourth one that I've noticed sounds something like this:

I think I count, but I'm not sure, so I don't know what to tell you.


And then the back and forth goes on in my mind. Do I say "no, I'm not ok with that." and risk coming off like a jerk? Or do I say "sure, that's fine." even though it's not fine. Is it wrong for it to be not fine? Am I being unreasonable?

The end result of this is me coming off like a typical Libra... "oh, sure it's fine. well, I mean, I kind of wanted to do this, but I could never impose that you shouldn't. I mean..." blah blah blah.

It all comes from shame. Shame that I should feel a need for something, and be vocal about it. But also not wanting to come off dishonest, so I create this tiny personal crisis where I won't even admit to myself what it is I truly need, so I won't seem like a jerk when I don't get it because I didn't fucking ask for it in the first place.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

+++

for me, when i refuse to admit to myself that i am having a need, it is because i am too afraid of the conflict that may ensue if i voice my need.  

there is a fourth though, assertive.  

assertive:  i acknowledge and appreciate that we both count, and trust you to feel the same way.

2 assertive people can negotiate differing ideas and needs, even conflicting ones, by maintaining boundries for themselves and the specific issue.  by gently negotiating the circumstances one at a time.

i really feel you with this one, because i get really upset really easily a lot, and feel hysterical, and often don't even realize that i am in fact stifling myself and thats why i am so upset, that no one is doing anything to me, that i am doing something to myself, and its humiliating, and confusing, and infuriating.  so thats what i try to do, speak up about my needs, and beleive people when they say they are important to them, even though to me i have a million entries on every list of reasons why i dont deserve to have my needs met.

but it is all in my heads, and they did put it there, with their miles and miles of dirt lists and the raps that i put myself through in my head.  i dont know if it will ever go away, but i hope it does.

[try another castle]

You and I also have the pseudo-self-sacrificial gene that comes with being jewish.

"Don't worry about me. I'll just sit here in the dark by myself, eating cigarette butts. No fine. Go have fun. I'm just your mother, that's all."

[Anonymous]

You guys are funny.

I just know that passive aggressive is the one that pisses me off the most.

I hate dealing with all that indirect bullshit. I'd seriously rather deal with an Aggressive (at this age, not helpless in CEDU at 16), knowing I can just say "fuck off" and they can get it.

Yep, assertive is the way to go, and that's something you can learn. If you're passive, you just get tired of being put upon.... and learn to be more assertive.  

...but its hard to unlearn aggressive or passive-aggressive behavior.  Its so ingrained.

As far as good old Jewish Mama guilt: I guess Catholics don't have the corner on it.  I remember my best friend Eric, who is Jewish marrying an Italian Catholic girl.   I was really surprised because he is deeply rooted in Judaica.  So, I asked him how this would work, knowing how he always planned on marrying Jewish woman. He simply said: Jewish and Italian Catholic are big on family and guilt. We can work around Jesus. Its perfect!"

[Oz girl]

I am a firm believer in compromise. I would have stated that I just wanted it to be the two of us but then suggested another specific time  when we all hang!  8-)

[try another castle]

I think that the jewish/italian merger is about as ancient as the old testament itself, even though catholicism didn't exist then.

You left out one aspect of that trifecta, shan. The three things jews and italian catholics have in common are:

1. Guilt/shame
2. Family
3. Food (and as a result, mixed messages from the mother. "Are you eating enough? you are eating, right?" "Yes, mom, I'm eating fine." "Oh, great, you're probably fat."

I shit you not, she actually said that to me one time. Without skipping a fucking beat.

[AuntieEm]

Ooookay, so that's one ham & tuna on toasted sourboundarydough, one rhubarb & atlantic cod hot pocket with nicotine flavored parmesean cheese sprinkles, one Catholic guilt wad on Jewish rye with cigarette butt garnish, an order of passive-agressive waffles, and a birthday cake.  

To go, I assume?

Auntie Em

[try another castle]

Ooookay, so that's one ham & tuna on toasted sourboundarydough, one rhubarb & atlantic cod hot pocket with nicotine flavored parmesean cheese sprinkles, one Catholic guilt wad on Jewish rye with cigarette butt garnish, an order of passive-agressive waffles, and a birthday cake.  

To go, I assume?

Auntie Em

Oh my god, em, that was absofuckinglutely brilliant. I laughed my ass off.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Auntie Em

Good stuff.

Please add a non-fat vanilla soy, decaf, sugar free whipped cream iced machiatto to my order please .

[AuntieEm]

My pleasure. Group effort, as you can see.

Who was it who was talking about the importance of a good sense of humor? Shanlea?

Have a good week,

Auntie Em

P.S. You ever notice the bitter irony of BCA/RMA/NWA/Ascent being in Boundary County? Wouldn't No Boundaries County be more fitting?

[dishdutyfugitive]

True.