Getting Tough on Private Prisons for Teens - Maia on regs

[ZenAgent]

The industry will go the way of sweat shops.

[hanzomon4]

The industry will go the way of sweat shops.

To China?

[Dynamic Korea]

Americans confusing always.. you have good peoples to keep children humble.. but you no like? Why Americans not want good obedient children?

Hitting children good for them... Teach them respect for older persons..

Why Americans no like obedient children?

American weak country full with fat lazy peoples. Korea better country with many better peoples who love children..

[hanzomon4]

Americans confusing always.. you have good peoples to keep children humble.. but you no like? Why Americans not want good obedient children?

Hitting children good for them... Teach them respect for older persons..

Why Americans no like obedient children?

American weak country full with fat lazy peoples. Korea better country with many better peoples who love children..

Lord...

Something tells me I'm going to enjoy this troll....... lol

[ZenAgent]

The industry will go the way of sweat shops.

To China?

Kathy Lee Gifford will take over...

[psy]

Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.

Yeah.  I thought that might be the case too.. still might be.  we'll find out.

All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be.

At best Maia's suggestion will act as a band aid on the festering wound of human nature. Sadism, cruelty, abuse all run in the heart and pulse of every single human being. It lurks beneath the surface waiting to get out and even in the most regulated of enviroments it still escapes.

Well you do have to admit that human beings do also have redeeming qualities, such as love.  But power does corrupt.  We used to use the term "power trip" to describe the behavior of the staff at Benchmark...  How apt.  Add a twisted sense of camaraderie and loyalty (reporting friends to the cops?) to the mix along with a cult belief system and you have yourself a program.  People compromise their ethics little by little and when they're told they're helping the kids there comes thebrain damaged rationalization that the ends justifies the means.  Then there's the temptation of money and those staff, ed-cons, and other industry whores who simply have no conscience at all (see Sue Scheff, Lichfield, Jan Moss, Jayne Longnecker( hi there! ), et al.)

Fuck legislation.  It won't do shit but

I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.

You can't force human nature to not rear its ugly head when you have a system that empowers the worst part of human nature.

Sorry but Maia is off base on this one. Legislation of programmes is not the answer... it is nothing more than some New York Liberal bullshit band aid on the problem.

Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children. Foolproof? Oh Hell no fucking no. Let's forget so easily that even in adult prisons, treatment centers, and psyciatric facilites governed by the proper alphabet soup government agencies that give some of you forniscators a total fucking hard on just for hearing the name that abuse STILL regularly happens.

I have to say this pretty clearly.. but enjoy this while you can because the same time next year or the year after we will find ourselves right back to square one.. except this time we will have to deal with the fact that these programmes are "regulated".

See: (and i hope you're reading, Maia):  The general idea these people who want legislation think about is: "ooh.. let's just use this as a stepping stone".  You forget to take the "abolitionist" analogy a step further: legislation was tried to gradually phase out slavery, It failed.  Why?  Because creative people with a lot to lose found loopholes around what was originally intended to discourage the practice.  Like TSW said, they will find a way to exist.  They operate like organized crime crossed with scientology.  Check out the recent news about "coaches" on the Benchmark website.  By changing the wording and spending cash for a 36 hour course they can avoid legislation.

And I don't trust the 12-stepper staffed California ADP at all to give a good god damn about what a fellow coven does.  Most state licensing folks seem to be some blend of incompetant, stupid, lazy, encumbered by beaurocrocy, corrupt, and/or sympathetic to the programs themselves and their staff (who know how to present themselves as honest, hard working, "recovering addicts").  I hate to rail so hard on AA, but it really is the origin of a whole lot of this mess* (that isn't even to mention the questions that surround the program's efficacy)  I'm by no means saying: abolish AA.  I'm saying it should be recognised as the cult "religion" it is and never forced on somebody as "treatment", especially minors.

* AA bore Synanon and AA continues to be distorted and used by various sections of the industry.

[Rachael]

I am not so naive as to believe that regulation will ever take down this industry. What I do believe, quite strongly, is that what is needed is a cultural paradigm shift to one that believes in the fundamental rights of children and teenagers to self-determination, the in-efficacy of these programs, that abuse has no justification regardless of end result, and finally that "behaviour modification" is indeed a fundamentally abusive practice. How do I think this will happen? It must be done step by step. I sincerely believe that although it will not be the one fell swoop that takes out all RTCs, TBSs, and wilderness camps, the GAO investigation will quietly make one of the first bold statements that maybe something is wrong.

The introduction of anti-slavery legislation did not take down what had become the cultural norm - but it was one of the first blows to destroy the behemoth.

[Anonymous]

Kids doesn't desarve no goddadburn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! Eff'n mine evah try t'"assert their rights" ah's gonna drag 'em out t'th' woodshed an' tear up their uppity li'l asses!

[Pitbull Mom]

Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.

In its current form, as just a trade organization, NATSAP is pretty useless, since it only assures that a member program meets certain self monitored standards. and who knows if they actually check or require documentation for licensing etc. With some pressure from Congress, it could evolve into a useful body. It obviously needs board members who are not Program Directors.

All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be. I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.

Perhaps not, but legislation could go a long way in providing at least some protection, and ensuring a minimum baseline of safety standards. I agree legislation is not the magic wand, and needs to address much more than just the licensing and accreditation that NATSAP promotes. After all, my son died in a regulated, licensed and accredited facility that had a good track record, a well known clinical program and all that. I mistakenly associated licensing and accreditation with regulation, like many other parents. Hopefully the hearing and the media attention will get the word out about how little regulation and oversight there is in the industry. Legislation at least starts to address this, it's not a panacea by any means.

Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children.

This is a really good point, and is something I plan to pursue, I've already starting talking to some protection and advocacy groups about this. I hope the GAO addresses the civil rights of kids in programs. It shouldn't be any different than a hospital stay.  Physical abuse and neglect aside, there are all kinds of civil rights issues. ALL kids in programs should not only have a bonafide diagnosis and treatment plan, with parental permission for any medication changes, but  also access to an advocate not employed by the program. there has to be better oversight of any institutionalization of children for any reason.

[Che Gookin]

Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.

In its current form, as just a trade organization, NATSAP is pretty useless, since it only assures that a member program meets certain self monitored standards. and who knows if they actually check or require documentation for licensing etc. With some pressure from Congress, it could evolve into a useful body. It obviously needs board members who are not Program Directors.

All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be. I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.

Perhaps not, but legislation could go a long way in providing at least some protection, and ensuring a minimum baseline of safety standards. I agree legislation is not the magic wand, and needs to address much more than just the licensing and accreditation that NATSAP promotes. After all, my son died in a regulated, licensed and accredited facility that had a good track record, a well known clinical program and all that. I mistakenly associated licensing and accreditation with regulation, like many other parents. Hopefully the hearing and the media attention will get the word out about how little regulation and oversight there is in the industry. Legislation at least starts to address this, it's not a panacea by any means.

Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children.

This is a really good point, and is something I plan to pursue, I've already starting talking to some protection and advocacy groups about this. I hope the GAO addresses the civil rights of kids in programs. It shouldn't be any different than a hospital stay.  Physical abuse and neglect aside, there are all kinds of civil rights issues. ALL kids in programs should not only have a bonafide diagnosis and treatment plan, with parental permission for any medication changes, but  also access to an advocate not employed by the program. there has to be better oversight of any institutionalization of children for any reason.

Your ignorance regarding Nutsack is appalling. Go back to programme kindergarten posthaste!

[Dynamic Korea]

In Korea my son tell me I bad parent... Me no give my son Star Craft game he want.. so son cry and mother comfort son with slap to face.. Hitting son good for son.. makes son into strong korean man.. Americans weak because no hit thier own children enough...

You Americans pay bigg companies bigg dollars to hit children.. Americans very stupid.. Keep children home and love them everyday with slap to face..

Also slap wife face every day.. good for wife.. or wife have sex with man strange men.. maybe one man be Nigerian???

Very very bad!

[hanzomon4]

I am not so naive as to believe that regulation will ever take down this industry. What I do believe, quite strongly, is that what is needed is a cultural paradigm shift to one that believes in the fundamental rights of children and teenagers to self-determination, the in-efficacy of these programs, that abuse has no justification regardless of end result, and finally that "behaviour modification" is indeed a fundamentally abusive practice. How do I think this will happen? It must be done step by step. I sincerely believe that although it will not be the one fell swoop that takes out all RTCs, TBSs, and wilderness camps, the GAO investigation will quietly make one of the first bold statements that maybe something is wrong.

The introduction of anti-slavery legislation did not take down what had become the cultural norm - but it was one of the first blows to destroy the behemoth.

^Ditto,

[ZenAgent]

Look at most Federal regulations, they're minimal guidelines, and the industry is against them?  The argument I remember hearing before was about the cost involved to meet requirements...that's beyond lame.  The response and general noise Catherine Freer's people are issuing is going to do them more harm than anything, especially in light of the current legal troubles of several programs.

Get rid of them all, let God sort them out.

[Anonymous]

Call me naive, but IMO, the industry's days are numbered. Not because of anything that is happening now, but because it is only a matter of time before enough of us end up in legislative positions to push for eradication as opposed to reform.

Think about it, the majority of clientele for these programs are upper/middle class whites of some influence. (Hell, I went to RMA with a DuPont as well as Barbara Walters' daughter [briefly].) What are the odds that there won't be a few who think the program was full of shit and end up on the hill? If you keep shoveling kids into these places, pretty soon all you are going to have left is a country full of survivors... and some of them, one day, are going to be in positions of influence. Contrary to popular opinion, not all of us are completely low functioning and paralyzed, or conversely, frothy programmies spouting feel-good jargon left and right and talking about how raps taught them to communicate effectively as a courtroom attorney.

Yeah yeah, I know that the numbers aren't *that* high... yet.

My point is, at some point, the country is going to *have* to deal with this, and with us, because they can't kill us all, and they most certainly have killed enough.

Besides, I doubt any of *us* are going to be sending our kids to one of these places. So... there's a bit of a chunk of the next iteration of parents who won't be buying into that. The TTI is building their own obsolescence, by creating a generation of very unhappy campers.

I'm rather jaded when it comes to ideas of reform vs. revolution. (You are talking to an ex-marxist, after all.) Reform is just lip service to people who want change, in an effort to make the shell game seem more legitimate. Revolution is normally spouted by people who wouldn't know the first thing to do if revolution actually happened. They believe in ideals, and don't understand pragmatics.  They don't forsee or try to predict possible scenarios for the aftermath and how to handle it or how to do damage control. If revolution happened, I would be as surprised and as unprepared and as taken aback as any of those industry fuckers who didn't even see it coming.

I'll go on record as casting my vote for the "eradicate the industry" tactic, but the key is in the pursestrings. Money and fear are what keeps this thing alive, so that's what must be addressed. We can't hit the people who run these places, we all know they are crazy. It's about smear... negative advertising... where's Karl Rove when you need him? He could make everyone in this country hate the TTI with a thirty second time slot. Yeah, he's an asshole, but he knows how to play people.

All I'm saying is that there are a lot of people in this country who watch TV... that's all I'm saying.

The problem with this idea is that the kind of "extremeist negativity" coming out of posts like this. Most people in this country won't even listen to it, because it sounds too extreme/off the wall. You have to fight it on their level, which is a more moderate stance.  The biggest asshole in the world can't convince the American public to shut down the industry, not in a million years.  you are going to have to start whereever you CAN make a difference. Look at how long it took for women and blacks to get the right to vote. change doesn't happen overnight. Those of you who promote NATSAP and/or the entrie industry getting get shut down as a result of the GAO investigation or any subsequent legislation, are actually getting in the way of reform. Nobody really takes you seriously. Except the trolls.

[try another castle]

Those of you who promote NATSAP and/or the entrie industry getting get shut down as a result of the GAO investigation or any subsequent legislation, are actually getting in the way of reform.

When on god's green earth did I ever say I wanted that? I don't believe that either of those scenarios are solutions, like you do. Or were you addressing people in general?

Also, what do you mean by "extreme negativity"? Negative campaign type strategies when it comes to educating?

Here's the thing: everyone says that they hate negative campaigning, and that they hate politicians who use it. Despite all of this, negative campaigning has a huge influence on people's decisions, even if they outwardly dislike these types of tactics. And the negative campaigns that are the most effective are the ones that at least have a little bit of truth to it.

Well, I think that there is more than just a little bit of truth regarding how horrible this industry is, don't you?

Besides, I think negative is a bit too strong of a word. I see it more as an expose. The fact of the matter is, the issue is about really negative stuff, so that is going to come across regardless.