Author Topic: Keith C. Russell  (Read 11430 times)

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Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2007, 04:26:08 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Any true believer in Zen who thanks the lord in a time of hardship can’t be trusted with their word.  I think that is a new low for you.

Hmmm.. Confucius says?  Ha,Ha,  I just went back and read a few of the past posts....... Seems we are trading insults, how professional.


I don't embrace any single religion, I only extract the good parts from the many.  Christianity yielded zilch on that score.  You've never said anything about the quote from the Koran in my signature, is that in conflict with the religious views you're imposing on me?

You could google Zen Agent and find some irony in my choosing it as a name.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline CCM girl 1989

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2007, 04:29:45 PM »
No threat at all Zen! Just wanted to meet you face to face. I have to admit I get a little curious from time to time who is really behind all these posts.

Not only that, but it's so easy to talk shit to people online, and not to their face. I want to see what kind of person you really are!

So, I am taking that as a no, that there will be no face to face.

Boo-hoo, I tried!
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f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2007, 04:31:38 PM »
I most respectfully request a reply, E.  

Quote from: ""ZenAgent""


Just want to know the good programs and the bad.  E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start.  This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.

I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment.  Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.  



Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me?  If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2007, 04:38:34 PM »
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
No threat at all Zen! Just wanted to meet you face to face. I have to admit I get a little curious from time to time who is really behind all these posts.

Not only that, but it's so easy to talk shit to people online, and not to their face. I want to see what kind of person you really are!

So, I am taking that as a no, that there will be no face to face.

Boo-hoo, I tried!


To the best of my knowledge, I've never talked to you at all, "shit" or pleasantries.  Unless you were an anon.  You seem to have more of an opinion formed of me than I do of you, because I honestly don't remember any exchanges between us.  

Fine, where will you be?  No need to cry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline CCM girl 1989

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2007, 04:40:47 PM »
I'll be near Nashville, PM me, and we will iron out the details.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline TheWho

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2007, 04:41:16 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
I most respectfully request a reply, E.  

Quote from: ""ZenAgent""


Just want to know the good programs and the bad.  E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start.  This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.

I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment.  Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.  


Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me?  If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.



Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems  to not have the best practices.
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Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2007, 05:31:26 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
I most respectfully request a reply, E.  

Quote from: ""ZenAgent""


Just want to know the good programs and the bad.  E. obviously considers us too narrow minded to have a clue about the safe programs, and since he wants to clean up the bias and BS around here, that would be a good start.  This is what he says he CAME to Fornits to do, so drop science on us, E-spot.

I sit at your feet in rapt attention, waiting for enlightenment.  Share the wisdom, so that we might go out and be thy disciples.  


Can you run down the good, the bad, and the ugly of programs for me?  If you share your knowledge of programs you could end all this silly talk in D.C.


Quote from: ""TheWho""
Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS

You gotta be kidding me...that's the extent of the "safe" programs you know of?  You make some bold claims for the industry and only give lukewarm support to ASR and SUWS?  They've had some complaints, as I recall.  Not all kids are a good "fit" - is that the program jargon?  

Quote from: ""TheWho""
some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems  to not have the best practices.


Huh...never mock my knowledge of programs again...do you mean Paradise Cove, Samoa?  It's WWASP, not straight, and it's shut down.  There was New Hope Academy, and Pacific Coast Academy, both Steve Cartisano joints - heard of him?  Long gone.  Do you really think Straight, inc. is currently operating under that identity?

I am disappointed.  I thought I would get an informed response, or an honest "I don't really know".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline TheWho

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2007, 06:14:58 PM »
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?
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Offline Deprogrammed

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Wow
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2007, 06:18:04 PM »
Quote from: ""Mummie""
also, did anyone see this?????  http://http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1009617&page=1  It's a 2005 article that has been brought back to the top of google under troubled teens.


Disturbing article!
I don't even know if I can wrap my head around that ABC article.
Thoughts from you , Mummie?
-DP
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Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2007, 06:49:10 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?


You know my position, E.  Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids.  We owe as much to the victims.

I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.  
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.  

Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned.  it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline TheWho

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2007, 07:24:26 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?

You know my position, E.  Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids.  We owe as much to the victims.

I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.  
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.  

Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned.  it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.



Raze them all
, he says,  Ha,Ha,  Correct, my boy..... smart as a whip that one is,  fornits is proud of you, you have been taught well.  Sorry I knew the answer, but I like hearing it....because in a little while someone will ask "Who, why are you here?" and I will reply something like..."To add balance to the discussion"...  to which will be a reply...."but we are all open minded and speak our own mind we dont need a balanced viewpoint here on fornits, we have it all figured out".

I realize you dont think it is funny because you are part of it and you dont see the stock responses and positioning that goes on, I am not laughing at you but at the pure irony of the preformed responses..... sometimes you create what you are fighting against.
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Offline ZenAgent

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2007, 11:19:50 PM »
The real irony is you're laughing at my comment about razing them all and completely ignoring what I said about Sheppard Pratt.  I gave you a model for an acceptable form of treatment, but you "only see what you want to see".

Don't be snidey, E-Spot, you need to do a little more research on Straight, inc.  Learn it's history, and learn the difference between Straight and WWASP.

Wait...you got "Miller" and "Newton" jumbled up on the GAO thread, and made some lame reference to beer and fig newtons.  You must have some idea of Straight.

Wow...this is like "The Punk And The Godfather"...Program survivors meeting the abrasive, industry-hustling ultimate yuppie sellout.  Ain't you the guy who used to set the paces?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline psy

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2007, 01:20:09 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No, just an example..... how about yourself, you have examples of the good, bad and the ugly?

You know my position, E.  Raze them all and learn from the mistakes that led to too many dead and damaged kids.  We owe as much to the victims.

I will give a thumbs up to Sheppard Pratt in Baltimore, MD, but their facility is acute care, time definitive, and kids have to enter voluntarily.  
My step daughter wanted to return there for a breather and some de-pressurizing therapy after PV.  

Seriously, you should pick active abusive programs or the recently overturned.  it looks bad when you don't know the current programs operating.


Raze them all
, he says,  Ha,Ha,  Correct, my boy..... smart as a whip that one is,  fornits is proud of you, you have been taught well.  Sorry I knew the answer, but I like hearing it....because in a little while someone will ask "Who, why are you here?" and I will reply something like..."To add balance to the discussion"...  to which will be a reply...."but we are all open minded and speak our own mind we dont need a balanced viewpoint here on fornits, we have it all figured out".

I have explained again and again to many different people in detail precisely the reasons why I feel this industry should be abolished.  As far as why you're here, it's to shift the discussion in another direction by any means possible.  If you call that "balancing", then I suppose you are accurate; however, wise readers will question your motives for wanting to do that.

Quote
I realize you dont think it is funny because you are part of it and you dont see the stock responses and positioning that goes on, I am not laughing at you but at the pure irony of the preformed responses..... sometimes you create what you are fighting against.


I see your reasoning (and how it can be percieved the way you describe), but your judgement of the way people think around here is simply not accrate at all.  Just because a person has a certain belief doesn't mean that he/she didn't go through a reasoning process ot get to that belief.  Certain people come to the same conclusion, it doens't mean that any opinions they come to are byproducts of groupthink.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2007, 02:15:51 AM »
As much as I piss off, threaten, and scare everyone else here...

I'd just like to let you know my thoughts are my own and completely parallel to anyone else's. We're talking about the same thing and see the same data, so there will be some overlap, but there is no group think. We're not here to fit in with other advocates. We're here because we're pissed the fuck off and sick of excuses to keep around un-necessary, useless, harmful quackery with no justification except declarations with no basis from people with vested interests in them.

Oh, and to say nigger so you call me racist.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Keith C. Russell
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2007, 10:00:18 AM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""

Well, lets see, what I would consider a good program would be ones like ASR or a wilderness like SUWS some of the bad ones would be straight, the one in Samoa, maybe seems  to not have the best practices.



ASR?   This ASR?

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=15260&start=360



SUWS?  This SUWS?
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... =northstar


Isn't Northstar Expeditions part of SUWS?  I could be wrong.


http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html


Loving Them to Death

It's the "wilderness experience" at its most extreme--rehabilitation of wayward teenagers delivered with the in-your-face discipline of a boot camp. But in the past five years at least four young people have died, the victims of alleged beatings, starvation, and emotional abuse, and the so-called therapy is looking more like murder.
By Jon Krakauer

The long-distance connection was good, but as Sally Bacon stood in her Phoenix kitchen, she couldn't make sense of what she was hearing. A month before, she'd sent her 16-year-old son, Aaron, to a Utah wilderness school called North Star Expeditions. Now a disembodied voice from North Star was telling her, "Aaron is down. We can't get a pulse."

"What does that mean, you can't get a pulse?"

"Aaron's been airlifted to the hospital in Page, Arizona," came the reply. "Call your husband. He's been given the hospital phone number." Sally frantically dialed Bob Bacon at his office. Sounding numb, he repeated what he knew: Aaron had collapsed in the desert. It was a freak accident. There was nothing anyone could do. Their son was dead.

On March 1, 1994, the Bacons had enrolled Aaron in a 63-day North Star course conducted in the sandstone badlands of southern Utah, near Escalante. Tall and skinny, with shoulder-length hair, Aaron was a funny, articulate kid who wrote prizewinning poetry and excelled academically. But early in his sophomore year at Phoenix's Central High School, he started smoking pot every day and ditching classes. His grades plummeted. In February of 1994, he was jumped in the school parking lot by members of a gang known as the Crips. Although he vehemently denied any gang involvement, witnesses reported that the Crips acted like they knew him well.

"That really scared us," says Sally, who worried that the beating involved a drug deal. "Aaron seemed to be caught in a big downhill spiral."

From a friend of a friend, Sally had heard about a company called North Star Expeditions, whose adolescent-treatment program was based on an increasingly popular regimen known as wilderness therapy: a blend of intensive counseling, enforced discipline, and spartan hikes through the desert. "Students at North Star...learn that Mother Nature does not make exceptions," explained the outfit's brochure. "They learn responsibility, self-discipline, and motivation."

Tuition was $13,900 for a 63-day course, plus another $775 to have Aaron forcibly "escorted" to Escalante--something North Star strongly recommended. Bob's architecture firm, once prosperous, had lately been teetering on the brink of insolvency, and the Bacons no longer had that kind of cash. But, says Sally, after talking to several parents whose kids had been helped by the program, "We were given a lot of hope that North Star was going to build Aaron's self-esteem. I knew it would be rigorous, but I pictured him out there with God and nature, hiking all day, discussing his issues with therapists around the campfire at night."

Still, the Bacons had concerns, which they expressed during a long meeting at a Phoenix hotel with Lance and Barbara Jaggar, two of North Star's owners. "I was worried because Aaron was very, very thin," says Sally, "but Barbara assured me, 'Oh, we would never let any of our students lose weight.'"

Bob cautioned that Aaron didn't respond well to intimidation. "Don't worry," insisted Lance, a 280-pound former military policeman with a neck like a fire hydrant. "I have a special gift for working with kids. They really open up to me." Convinced, Sally and Bob took out a second mortgage to pay the tuition and, without telling Aaron, signed him up.

At 6 a.m. on March 1, Aaron awoke to the sight of his father walking into his bedroom with Lance Jaggar and Jaggar's brother-in-law, Don Burkhart. Taking Aaron's arm in his meaty grip, Jaggar announced, "You're coming with me. If I detect any resistance, I'll assume you are trying to get away, and I'll take the appropriate action. Do I make myself clear?"

As Aaron was led out of the house barefoot, Sally tried to hug her terrified son, but Jaggar wouldn't release Aaron's arms. Trying not to cry, she took his face in her hands and declared, "I love you. I don't want you to be afraid. This is what's best." Jaggar then hustled the boy outside, drove to the airport, and flew him to Escalante in a single-engine Cessna.

Over the next month, Sally called frequently to see how Aaron was doing. The news wasn't encouraging. Her son, said North Star spokeswoman Daryl Bartholomew, was "belligerent and a whiner," and the other kids resented him. During a long conversation on March 30, Bartholomew informed Sally that Aaron's attitude was so bad he'd probably have to repeat the program.

Twenty-four hours later, Aaron was dead. According to the autopsy, the cause was acute peritonitis resulting from a perforated ulcer. The contents of Aaron's gastrointestinal tract had leaked through two holes in his small intestine, spreading a massive infection throughout his abdominal cavity. North Star explained that the ailment had surfaced so suddenly that heroic efforts by its field staff and an emergency medical helicopter were futile. Preliminary reports from the Garfield County sheriff's office seemed to confirm North Star's contention that the death was an unavoidable accident.

The Bacons' grief was compounded by guilt over the fact that they'd never had an opportunity to explain to Aaron why they sent him to North Star. "After Aaron died," says Sally, "all I wanted was to get his body back. I wanted to hold him and say good-bye. I wanted a chance to apologize."

But with the arrival of his remains at a Phoenix mortuary three days later, guilt gave way to anger. Pulling the sheet from Aaron's body, Sally was confronted with a battered, emaciated corpse. She started screaming hysterically and had to cover her eyes. "His legs were like toothpicks," Sally recalls, breaking into sobs. "His hipbones stuck way out, his ribs--he looked like a concentration-camp victim. There were bruises from the tip of his toes to the top of his head, open sores up and down the inside of his thighs. The only way we were even able to recognize him was a childhood scar above his right eye."

"Right then it became obvious that Aaron's death was not an accident," Bob Bacon says. "We knew that something horrible had been done to him."


article continued
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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