Keith C. Russell

[TheWho]

Zen wrote:

How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

[ZenAgent]

Zen wrote:

How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

I beg to differ.  Unlike ST, you're allowed to present an opposing view.    I can't even get to ST's forum, that's how uptight they are.  Of course you have survivors at the helm here and programees running ST, but which forum is open to all?

Ginger has only attempted to curb one other poster, some guy with neo-Nazi leanings, apparently.  You're annoying, who, but not on a racist level.  You obviously don't care what people think of you, and you know your right to post won't be taken away.  Cite an example of a pro-industry forum that grants the same privileges.

[Anonymous]

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

What a load of shit and you know it.  There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views.  They've proven that over and over.  Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.

You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate.  Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen.  Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked.  You're STILL here despite all that.  No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.

[TheWho]

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

What a load of shit and you know it.  There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views.  They've proven that over and over.  Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.

You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate.  Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen.  Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked.  You're STILL here despite all that.  No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.

You seem really pissed off by me being here and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but, We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.

NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.

[ZenAgent]

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm), ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

What a load of shit and you know it.  There is no way in hell ST would tolerate opposing views.  They've proven that over and over.  Even to the point that they close the entire forum in order to prevent dissension in the ranks.

You and one other person are the only ones I know of that have ever been banned from Fornits and the other was a program survivor and vehement anti-program advocate.  Both of you have been allowed back in and there's little chance of you being banned again, despite the crap you spew out here daily, shilling for Aspen.  Making sure relevant information gets buried or sidetracked.  You're STILL here despite all that.  No way in HELL that would ever happen on ST.

You seem really pissed off by me being here and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but, We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.

NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.

Don't dodge me, Sullie.  I'm not disturbed by your presence here.  We agree on who oversees the above operations, and no one is surprised - this is a volatile issue, lines are clearly drawn.  Answer my question - which is the more open forum for discussion, ST or Fornits?

You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie.  You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,

[TheWho]

You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,

Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda?  Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.  

I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here.  People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...

Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.

[Anonymous]

You seem really pissed off by me being here

Nah, you're a mere annoyance.  And you actually provide a valuable reference for 'our side'.  You make such an ass out of yourself and your attempts at derision, deflection and all your smoke and mirrors, moving goalposts, cherry picking and the fact that you can't seem to tear yourself away show that we're having an effect.  What we're doing is working.  Slowly perhaps, but its working.  Your presence here confirms that.

and I tolerate people like you who assume what other people stand for and dont wish you to be banned either and would not if I was in charge, but,

I never said I wished you to be banned.  I could care less.

We are taking about oversight and who is running organizations.

NATSAP is run by Program owners/admins
ST by program supporters
Fornits by survivors.

Yes that's true, but NATSAP and ST wouldn't tolerate dissent or criticism of their programs.  As soon as an opponent really gets into it and starts making a helluva lot of sense, that's it.  Conversation over.  That doesn't happen here.  Never has, never will.   Big difference.  BIG.

[Anonymous]

You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,

Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda?  Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.  

I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here.  People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...

Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.

I have no idea if your story about your daughter is true or not.  Maybe, but its irrelevant anymore.  Its my belief that you, or someone connected to you has a financial interest in Aspen Ed.

[stoodoodog]

Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda?

That[/i] is rich...

[ZenAgent]

You became less annoying to me when your agenda became clear, Sullie. You're a profiteer with no real concern in this debate other than turning a profit,

Ahhh, now there you go again with your assumptions...if you feel so strongly that I am making a profit it is because you are making one yourself...is some rich survivor paying you to flood this forum with anti PV/program propaganda?  Just because you have a price doesn’t mean everyone does.

Yeah, I'm lousy with cash because a rich PV survivor would rather pay me to rant on Fornits than use their wealth to hire a "dream team" to litigate.  Who, there are people here who talk to me by phone regularly, and members of A START have met my family.

Don't confuse "assumption" with "deduction".  I'm speculating based on your postings.  Your daughter's ASR experience is a pretty thin story, lacking input from the girl herself.  Motive seemed lacking in your desire to clear up BS.  You posted about traveling in the Far East, remember?  I asked if you were Gary Glitter (implying you were a pedophile enjoying the Pacific Rim's easy access to a plethora of perversion, which you didn't get), and you said you were on business in old Soviet Bloc countries, so I'm guessing you acquire from people desperate to sell, then seek a profit on your investment.  I was applying the "look for those who stand to profit the most" theory, and concluded you've got financial interest in this outside of any specific program but concerned with some NATSAP program.  Then again, you could be Lon Woodbury.  

Really, Sullie, don't get all plinched-up about it.  My price?  No one could afford me, old son.

I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here.  People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...

Calm down and remember how many of these kids were abused in programs.  Show some consideration for them and quit being so self-centered.

Read the description of "The Troubled Teen Industry", it doesn't look like the place parents are going to head for.  Why do you accuse the posters here of "personal vendettas" and bias?  They're trying to convey their experiences to other, and this is really about survivors and the industry, and for open-minded parents who want to see the side of the industry ST censors.  I wouldn't consider their postings as serving nothing but to "clog up this forum".  As I recall, the issue with you and Fornits was flooding, AKA clogging up the forum.  

I guess you would be happy if they all shut up and went away?  No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs.  Pick out the ones who seem to by lying and serving themselves, I'd be interested to see who you pick and your reasons.  

Look at StrugglingTeens forum - I see precious few teens posting on there.  

Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.

Your presence proves that, old man.

[psy]

Zen wrote:

How many moderators on StrugglingTeens are program survivors? How about administrators? No one's voting for or against you here, Who, the ban was lifted off you despite outcry. Yeah, you're well-aware people here despise you, but we can choose to ignore you or read you. Who voted to kick Psy off ST? No group decision there...

Exactly, so you see fornits is structured the same as any other organization (with survivors at the helm)

Not really.  There is no hierarchy at all (even though ginger is techincally the owner of the site).  Any excess pay for the donations we get (minus expenses) is split evenly among the three f-nuts who keep the site kicking.

ST with programs supporters at the helm.  ST had rules as does Fornits……if you break them you are banned, no body votes.

Fornits does not have rules concerning the content of what you can post.  ST had rules, and I was not banned for breaking them.  I was banned for the civil argument I made that offended nobody (but maybe Mose and Lon), but might have changed some minds.

Stop trying to act like fornits collectively wants to take the same ill-advised path that has been taken in the past by many.  Most of us want the industry abolished, annihilated, razed, burned to the ground (maybe Bucci can lend a hand!) I don't even have the motivation to respond in detail as to why, I know it won't influence your opinion.

[TheWho]

Zen wrote:

Who, there are people here who talk to me by phone regularly, and members of A START have met my family.

Little worried about your credibility?

I'm speculating

You are also derailing this thread, but I will take the hit for you.

Your daughter's ASR experience is a pretty thin story, lacking input from the girl herself.

So we can all doubt survivor stories?

Motive seemed lacking in your desire to clear up BS.

So it would help if I got defensive every time someone brought up my daughter.

You posted about traveling in the Far East, remember? I asked if you were Gary Glitter (implying you were a pedophile enjoying the Pacific Rim's easy access to a plethora of perversion, which you didn't get), and you said you were on business in old Soviet Bloc countries,

Sorry, I don’t know your friend glitter, not sure I want to.  I was in southeast Asia.

and concluded you've got financial interest in this outside of any specific program but concerned with some NATSAP program. Then again, you could be Lon Woodbury.

No, but would denying it help, don’t think so, people are going to believe what they want.

Calm down and remember how many of these kids were abused in programs. Show some consideration for them and quit being so self-centered.

I have already shown that kids are much safer in a TBS than in the public sector, you may have some specific cases or schools but the data leans heavily in favor of the kids.

Read the description of "The Troubled Teen Industry", it doesn't look like the place parents are going to head for. Why do you accuse the posters here of "personal vendettas" and bias? They're trying to convey their experiences to other, and this is really about survivors and the industry, and for open-minded parents who want to see the side of the industry ST censors. I wouldn't consider their postings as serving nothing but to "clog up this forum". As I recall, the issue with you and Fornits was flooding, AKA clogging up the forum.

Speaking for other people?

I guess you would be happy if they all shut up and went away?

Speaking for me?

No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs.

Really, you should look again, I don’t see any mention of that in the description…see the problem, Zen, is you only see what you want to see…you want to see me as a NATSAP person so I become one, you see this as a survivors only forum and it becomes that for you, you see a child abused in a program and they all become bad.  See I am a little more open minded, I think all should be welcome to discuss here whether they are program parents, staff, industry leaders…not just survivors.

Your presence proves that, old man.

And yours too..and I am glad you are still allowed to post after dumping over 1,000 posts in this forum, welcome to the club (Smile)

[ZenAgent]

Yeah, "dumped" over a 1000 posts and never banned once...thanks for respecting my views, E.   You cry about feeling unwelcome, and yet you're too short-sighted to see it's not Fornits' fault - it's yours.  

Oooh, you are getting touchy...

1.  My credibility doesn't matter because it isn't an issue.  Yours is.

2.  God forbid I should derail a thread.  That's normally your gig.

3.  No, we don't doubt survivors.  Wouldn't question your daughter in the slightest.   Getting defensive about your daughter would almost make me feel for ya,

4. Kids in the public sector can at least run if there's trouble, and they're free to tell their parents about any abuse.

5.  Dude!  I read Fornits regularly!  I know why you were banned!  You've made it clear that you think this is a lot of bias and BS, so obviously you're saying there's a lot of lying going on.  Yeah, I'll "speak for other people".

Really, Sullie, I know the description, and most parents considering an RTC aren't going to get past the discussion of "troubled parents" part.  You've accused me of being "fixated " on PV, now I'm accused of condemning the whole industry...which I do.

What went on with PV is something I certainly did not want to see.  You are far from open minded, you accuse the survivors of bias and vendettas.  If Martin Anderson had survived his beating and made it to posting here about the abuse, you'd call him biased, too.  Because of the deaths and lack of regulation, the industry has to be looked at as a whole...to try and sift out "good" from "bad" can't be done fast enough.

How many times do you have to be told???  Everyone IS welcome to discuss anything here, but be prepared to defend your views.

[Anonymous]

Little worried about your credibility?

Why would you say that?

You are also derailing this thread, but I will take the hit for you.

Liar.

I have already shown that kids are much safer in a TBS than in the public sector,

No you haven't.  Ever.

…see the problem, Zen, is you only see what you want to see…you want to see me as a NATSAP person so I become one, you see this as a survivors only forum and it becomes that for you, you see a child abused in a program and they all become bad.  See I am a little more open minded, I think all should be welcome to discuss here whether they are program parents, staff, industry leaders…not just survivors.

Why do you keep repeating this?  The very fact that you are here, presenting your 'case' shows that its possible to do so.  Not so with NATSAP or ST.  This IS primarily for program survivors.  All are welcome, but yes, we are mainly populated with anti-program opinions  BUT........ that's very different from ST and NATSAP.  WE are not "tolerated" there.  YOU are HERE so quit acting so put upon and quit trying to compare ST or NATSAP to Fornits.

And yours too..and I am glad you are still allowed to post after dumping over 1,000 posts in this forum, welcome to the club (Smile)

No, again.  This is primarily run for and by survivors.  YOU are tolerated because Fornits believes in free speech.  The same can't be said for pro-program sites.  We aren't afraid to debate the issues with you.  NATSAP and ST are terrified of having an open discussion with any of us.  They can't do it.

[TheWho]

Yeah, I'll "speak for other people".

Just wanted to point out that you are doing that.

You've accused me of being "fixated " on PV, now I'm accused of condemning the whole industry...which I do.

Its no longer an accusation if you fess up, thank you, thanks for admitting it.

Kids in the public sector can at least run if there's trouble, and they're free to tell their parents about any abuse.

Ditto for TBS’s (I think you are speaking about a specific school again….open your mind a little)…

 

You are far from open minded

I am able to see that the industry can do good and bad.  I can step back and see both sides.  Your open-mindedness has been damaged by your bad experience,  don’t take experiences from one school and assume they are all that way,   Since your friend Glitter had a bad experience in Southeast Asia doesn’t mean everyone does, you should travel more.  Not everyone that opposes your point of view is being paid or owns a TBS, get over yourself, we just happen to be more experienced in how industry operates as a whole and judging by your approach, you don’t have a clue, knock yourself out!
I am not blaming you, maybe if my daughter had been harmed by her experience I would be spending all my time on a very small focus and seeing and judging the whole industry thru that one experience.

How many times do you have to be told??? Everyone IS welcome here to discuss anything, but be prepared to defend your views.

Let me read back what you stated: No, this is a forum for survivors to talk about what happened while they were in programs.
I say…you are just as welcome here as I am… Don’t think this forum is just for survivors…your presence does not upset me nor your narrow view.  I welcome open discussion, especially if you disagree with me because it brings the issues to the surface.