idea, inspired by over the gw. the grassroots effort thread.

[Anonymous]

even I came to that conclusion over time and with the right information.

The information was right in front both of your faces.

You both failed the kids involved by making bad decisions.

What information is needed to tell you that kidnapping your child and threatening them is wrong?

What information is needed to tell you the facility you work for is abusive? Either it is or it isn't.

At this point, both of you are making excuses.

I just want to know one thing. If your child died in a program, would you make these same excuses for the killer or those who paid the killer? Just wondering.

[Anonymous]

Ok Buzzkill does not recommend programs of any kind. Not even ALA in spite of her own views. She stated that she was not their mouthpiece but answered the question with the truth as she saw it. She then was continually asked questions about it which she answered.

Sue Scheff refers to any random program

Buzzkill genuinely does what she can to tell parents of the dangers of programs. She has done many practical things to keep kids out of programs. This moves far beyond WWASP

Sue Scheff recommends dangerous programs

Buzzkill has never sued those who disagree with her or who are rude to her
Sue Scheff sues everyone

Buzzkill spends money trying to keep kids out of programs
Sue Scheff makes money sending kids to programs

Buzzkill answers any questions as honestly as she feels she can even when it results in obscenities thrown her way
Sue Scheff tells out and out lies and has never allowed anyone to question  her ethics

Buzzkill has crazy religious ideas but at least practices them by generally turning the other cheek and attempting to do some good in the world. She puts her money where her mouth is and gives anybody a fair chance.

[Anonymous]

You forgot

I wish BuzzKill was my mommy

[Anonymous]

BuzzKill threatened her son with kidnapping and abusive program.

BuzzKill carried out threat and left son in abusive program for four months.

BuzzKill finally finds the time to go to a seminar, and her current cult beliefs do not allow her to accept another cult belief. Shaking her worldview to the core, she becomes uncomfortable with the other parents around her and pulls her son.

BuzzKill, knowing her son was coming from a cult and abusive program, sends her son to another program.

BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with using knowledge of abusive programs to scare children today(said this several times).

BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with "lighter" programs like ALA.

BuzzKill is anti-WWASPS but not anti-program.

BuzzKill uses  rhetoric like Sue Scheff to convince anti-program people she agrees with them by ommitting details from story or being vague.

BuzzKill thinks teens bring abusive programs upon themselves.

BuzzKill thinks it's okay to enter into an agreement to abuse your child, as long as the child agrees , it's okay.

BuzzKill blames brainwashing for WWASPS even though she never was brainwashed.

BuzzKill blames escort companies even though she called them first.

[TheWho]

BuzzKill threatened her son with kidnapping and abusive program.

BuzzKill carried out threat and left son in abusive program for four months.

BuzzKill finally finds the time to go to a seminar, and her current cult beliefs do not allow her to accept another cult belief. Shaking her worldview to the core, she becomes uncomfortable with the other parents around her and pulls her son.

BuzzKill, knowing her son was coming from a cult and abusive program, sends her son to another program.

BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with using knowledge of abusive programs to scare children today(said this several times).

BuzzKill sees nothing wrong with "lighter" programs like ALA.

BuzzKill is anti-WWASPS but not anti-program.

BuzzKill uses  rhetoric like Sue Scheff to convince anti-program people she agrees with them by ommitting details from story or being vague.

BuzzKill thinks teens bring abusive programs upon themselves.

BuzzKill thinks it's okay to enter into an agreement to abuse your child, as long as the child agrees , it's okay.

BuzzKill blames brainwashing for WWASPS even though she never was brainwashed.

BuzzKill blames escort companies even though she called them first.

Buzzkill seems level headed, not extreme on either side.

[Anonymous]

Buzzkill didn't remove her son from ALA.  Buzzkill's son went to work at ALA after he finished his enrollment at ALA, right?  
Is all the complaining about parental brainwashing by WWASP to bolster to current claims in the Turley lawsuit?

[BuzzKill]

My primary focus, when discussing how and why the programs are able to keep doing what they do, and growing in numbers, despite all the negative press, is the brain washing cultic aspects of the programs (all of the Syanon based programs - now that I know about the history) This is nothing new fro me. This has always been my major point. It has nothing do with any legal action. Its my opinion on how and why the programs grow, despite their extremely dismal effects on the families. I have always felt this needed explaining.

My son was a student at ALA and did spend a summer helping out in the Mexican home. He had a good time while there. I do think it was a positive thing for him, despite the abundence of pot and developing a taste for fish tacos, goat meat, and extremely spicy food of all sorts. He enjoyed the relaxed culture and meeting the people. I didn't pull him from ALA b/c there was never any reason to. When he wanted to come home, he did.

My thanks to those who have gone to the trouble to defend me in this thread, despite their own feelings that I was, and perhaps am, a bit of a fool Yes, I have a few things in common with Ned Flanders. I think he's a great guy BTW.

Now, I would like to respectfully request that the focus be taken off me. I'll happily refrain from further comment, if we can allow the thread to get back to effective grass roots actions.

[psy]

Buzzkill didn't remove her son from ALA. Buzzkill's son went to work at ALA after he finished his enrollment at ALA, right?
Is all the complaining about parental brainwashing by WWASP to bolster to current claims in the Turley lawsuit?

Buzz doesn't refer kids to programs.  Buzz's kid didn't go through any hard times in ALA because his existing belief structure was compatible with the program.  I don't think it was the right decision, and perhaps Buzz disagrees, however I don't think either of us, in the end, have a truly relevant say in the matter.  What matters to me is whether the kid wanted to go.  Even then, it was a long time ago, and I know Buzz, currently, is no fan of the industry.

Furthermore, I would take with a grain of salt what some people have to say about other people behind their backs, especially certain "Guest" people who don't like her, have extremely distinctive writing styles, and enjoy trying to get people in trouble by lying about them when they don't get their way.  ( @you know who you are:  ::fu::  Oh.  And Btw.. I didn't check.  I don't have to.  You stick out like a malignancy)(not you, Buzz).

[Carey]

Personally, I don't think the parents are "brainwashed" any more than parents who take their kids to Sunday school are brainwashed.  Parents take their kids to Sunday school because they think it is the right thing to do.  The Church tells them it is the right thing to do.  Other Chiristians or believers tell them it is the right thing to do.  Christian parents believe that if they don't take their kids to church they may never be "saved".  They may die and go to hell.  Are they brainwashed?  There certainly is a lot of pressure put on them to conform.  But are they brainwashed?  No.  It is a choice.  

As far as the programs go, I don't think parents always know what goes on behind closed doors and therein the danger lies.  However they choose to believe that  placing their child int a program is the right thing to do.  It is a choice they make.   They choose to believe that the program is the answer to the problem.    

I think brainwashing takes a lot more than just a few weekend seminars and other parents praising the programs for someone to become "brainwashed".  Of course I am looking at the definition of brainwashing as in terms of  forced coersion.

[Oz girl]

i can see both sides of the brainwashing argument. it is also important to look at the wider social factors that support the industry because these do play a part.
On one hand if a kid is experiencing legal, mental health or substance abuse difficulties and there appears to be a lack of local social services or extremely heavy handed laws when it comes to petty youth crime and drug use then a program is going to be pretty tempting.
 Many parents have complained of these issues and I can see how jail is a realistic fear in states with an excessive approach to youth crime or drug taking. While i recognize that Jail is ironically better than most programs I can see how the word Boarding School is going to sound better than jail to any reasonable parent.

This is why any real grass roots action needs to also look at lobbying for a far more sensible approach to young people on a local level. A shift away from ridiculous zero tolerance policy both in schools and with regard to policing is a start. Greater genuinely helpful and accesable mental health and medical services would also help in reducing the sense of desperation (false or otherwise) that parents feel. if nothing else a good non hysterical  local doctor can reassure a parent who suspects their experimenting child is an addict.

Having said this, it does seems that some parents are far more willing to buy in than others. Some of the things that kids to get sent to the industry for indicate that there is either hysteria on the parents part, a step parent who wants them sent away cause they are not cute any more or a parent who expects total obedience form the kid. I can remember reading about Paul Richards in help at any cost. On one hand his parents did appear brainwashed but on the other they were pretty shitty parents to begin with. They appeared to pretty much decide that their son was an asshole at ten and spend his adolescence picking fights with him and punishing him. Programs are always going to market to such people. So the question is were they brainwashed or were they assholes who just found like minded freaks?

it also appears that the rise of the religious Right has a lot to answer for. The fact that there are programs that treat Wikka or homosexuality speaks volumes. While there will always be families that disagree on these issues, it is frightening that there is a real movement of people who promote the idea that these things are not about a difference in opinion or lifestyle but pathology. The W "with us or against us" mentality is not just about iraq.

[Froderik]

The word "brainwashing" gets tossed around rather glibly on these forums sometimes.

[Anonymous]

Probably because it is so routinely used by programs. If you want to warehouse people for the lowest possible cost, brainwashing is one of the first techniques you turn to.

[Froderik]

Just saying.

[Carey]

Influenced would be a better word to describe what happens to the parents.  I think the parents can be easily influenced by those who support the programs and those who profit from the programs and they are easily influenced because they are vulnerable. In my opinion, that would be a better way to describe the parents who place their kids into these risky programs rather than calling them brainwashed.  

I think once they have been influenced and supportive some parents find it hard to admit that it is not the answer and they hold on to their belief as it is a last sort of hope.  If you don't have hope, what do you have?  They choose to hang on to that hope.

Being brainwashed imo implies being forced or coerced into a belief and/or choice.  I think it is the kids who are being brainwashed, not the parents.  And I tend to think, that some parents think that is exactly what their kid needs.

[try another castle]

A distinction I would draw between what the parents experience and their kids would be brainwashed vs. duped or conned.

the parents do experience a watered down version of what their kid goes through, if they attend the seminars, but I have yet to see any program show a parent what happens in a rap or a full blown workshop.

Brainwashing happens when you experience the program, duped is what happens when the program launches the spin machine. Duped, manipulated, conned, and information deliberately withheld. What really happens to their child is shrouded in secrecy. I would hope that most parents would be protective enough of their children that if they really saw the kind of shit that went down and what was being done to their own kid, it would disturb them.

Now, with examples such as the Seed or Synanon, this does not apply, because the families lived there, and were just as much a part of the process as the kids. I would also argue this was the case with straight, because of host homes. But most of the facilities currently in operation deliberately make sure that the parents don't discover this stuff.