Author Topic: Funny article  (Read 8645 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Addiction is NOT a choice
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2007, 06:41:09 PM »
Quote from: ""SH""
The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.


More on the subject.


http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap6.html

CHAPTER 6

Why We Should Reject The Disease Concept of Alcoholism*

Herbert Fingarette, Ph. D.

Why do heavy drinkers persist in their behavior even when prudence, common sense, and moral duty call for restraint? That is the central question in debates about alcohol abuse. In the United States, but not in other countries such as Great Britain (Robertson and Heather, 1982), the standard answer is to call the behavior a disease—"alcoholism"—whose key symptom is a pattern of uncontrollable drinking. This myth, now widely advertised and widely accepted, is neither helpfully compassionate nor scientifically valid. It promotes false beliefs and inappropriate attitudes, as well as harmful, wasteful, and ineffective social policies.

The myth is embodied in the following four scientifically baseless propositions:

            1) Heavy problem drinkers show a single distinctive pattern of ever greater alcohol use leading to ever greater bodily, mental, and social deterioration.

            2) The condition once it appears, persists involuntarily: the craving is irresistible and the drinking is uncontrollable once it has begun.

            3) Medical expertise is needed to understand and relieve the condition ("cure the disease") or at least ameliorate its symptoms.

            4) Alcoholics are no more responsible legally or morally for their drinking and its consequences than epileptics are responsible for the consequences of their movements during seizures.

The idea that alcoholism is a disease has always been a political and moral notion with no scientific basis. It was first promoted in the United States around 1800 as a speculation based on erroneous physiological theory (Levine, 1978), and later became a theme of the temperance movement (Gusfield, 1963). It was revived in the 1930s by the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), who derived their views from an amalgam or religious ideas, personal experiences and observations, and the unsubstantiated theories of a contemporary physician (Robinson, 1979).

*This is a slightly edited version of an article in press to be published In The Harvard Medical School Mental Health Letter. By permission of Harvard University, copyright owner.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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no, not really
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2007, 07:07:32 PM »
That is one side of the debate, but there have been studies done on certain groups of peoples, such as Native Americans, that show that their genetics create, in a larger proportion than the regular population, the propensity to become alcoholics. How do you explain that if its only the person's "choice" that they become alcoholics? I am not saying that people don't have the power to change their addiction themselves, without a treatment center, or incarceration, because I think they do, but to just say that it's the addict's fault and that they are just weak is completely unfair to those trying to quit their addiction. A true addict has a very hard time saying no, something us non-addicts will never truly understand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: no, not really
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2007, 07:52:40 PM »
Quote from: ""SH""
That is one side of the debate, but there have been studies done on certain groups of peoples, such as Native Americans, that show that their genetics create, in a larger proportion than the regular population, the propensity to become alcoholics. How do you explain that if its only the person's "choice" that they become alcoholics?

From TFA (apparently reading for comprehension isn't one of your strong suits)

Recent studies have also been said to imply that alcoholism is a hereditary disease. But that is not what the genetic research shows. In the first place, these studies provide no evidence of a genetic factor in the largest group of heavy drinkers—those who have significant associated problems but are not diagnosable as alcoholics. Even among the minority who can be so diagnosed, the data suggest that only a minority have the pertinent genetic background. And even in this category, a minority of a minority, studies report that the majority do not become alcoholics (Goodwin, et al., 1973; Cloninger, et al., 1981; Deitrich and Spuhler, 1984).

It is not only misleading but dangerous to regard alcoholism as a genetic disorder. Heavy drinkers without alcoholism in their genetic backgrounds are led to feel immune to serious drinking problems, yet they have the greatest total number of problems. On the other hand, people who do have some hereditary disposition to alcoholism could easily become defeatist. Their risk is higher, and they should be aware of that, but their fate is still very much in their own hands.



Quote
I am not saying that people don't have the power to change their addiction themselves, without a treatment center, or incarceration, because I think they do, but to just say that it's the addict's fault and that they are just weak is completely unfair to those trying to quit their addiction. A true addict has a very hard time saying no, something us non-addicts will never truly understand.


I've been diagnosed an addict.  It's all bullshit.  Educate yourself.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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Funny article
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2007, 08:02:48 PM »
Quote
MODS: This is The Who posting more spam! Let's give this asshole the final heave-ho, shall we? Please DELETE The Who's recent anonymous postings and ban his new IP address.


Agreed!! Why dont we go one better and delete any post that disagrees with our beliefs (spam), especially if they dont have the guts to get a log-in (like the guest above mentioned).  Give them one warning and then ban their friggin asses after 3 posts and boot their butts into never-never land, if they dont change their position.  
This will clear the board for the rest of us who know whats good for everyone else.
 ::hatter::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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BS
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2007, 08:47:30 PM »
My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Funny article
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2007, 09:31:13 PM »
the facts about genetic disposition to alchohol are wildly misconstrued. The genetic disposition has nothing to do with your ability to choose not to drink over drinking.

Certain groups of people [e.g. native americans] have a higher incidence of a gene which impedes the digestion of alchohol. their bodies are simply not as good at processing alchohol in comparison to for example southern europeans. there is a good reason, and it has everything to do with evolution. europeans, along with some africans and central asians have been drinking ever since civilization popped up, therefore we have had time over hundreds of generations to evolve a level of alchohol tolerance. [most]  native americans on the other hand, were introduced to alchohol only a few centuries ago. they are about as good as a european toddler at processing alchohol. What does this mean? well it means native americans get drunker faster, and their brains and livers are affected by constant consuption much much faster. this is very simmilar to the cocaine/crack cocaine thing. snorted cocaine is addictive, but no where near to the degree of crack, becouse the high comes on slower, is less intense, and doesnt affect you as much, as addictive as it is people dont have anywhere near as much trouble quitting it than crack, becouse the high is more intense, even though technically it's the [nearly] same substance. same thing with native americans and alchohol, it's the same substance but the way it passes through their bodies makes the alchohol affect them more.

am i making sense or should i dig up references?

also keep in mind there is more than one guest....could be 50+ regular posters staying anon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Funny article
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2007, 09:45:32 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
the facts about genetic disposition to alchohol are wildly misconstrued. The genetic disposition has nothing to do with your ability to choose not to drink over drinking.

Certain groups of people [e.g. native americans] have a higher incidence of a gene which impedes the digestion of alchohol. their bodies are simply not as good at processing alchohol in comparison to for example southern europeans. there is a good reason, and it has everything to do with evolution. europeans, along with some africans and central asians have been drinking ever since civilization popped up, therefore we have had time over hundreds of generations to evolve a level of alchohol tolerance. [most]  native americans on the other hand, were introduced to alchohol only a few centuries ago. they are about as good as a european toddler at processing alchohol. What does this mean? well it means native americans get drunker faster, and their brains and livers are affected by constant consuption much much faster. this is very simmilar to the cocaine/crack cocaine thing. snorted cocaine is addictive, but no where near to the degree of crack, becouse the high comes on slower, is less intense, and doesnt affect you as much, as addictive as it is people dont have anywhere near as much trouble quitting it than crack, becouse the high is more intense, even though technically it's the [nearly] same substance. same thing with native americans and alchohol, it's the same substance but the way it passes through their bodies makes the alchohol affect them more.

am i making sense or should i dig up references?

also keep in mind there is more than one guest....could be 50+ regular posters staying anon


I did reference it.  I posted the link and the text which SHH has chosen to ignore.  I don't know what more I can say.  The piece I linked to specifically addressed those Native Americans she speaks of.

Is it me?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: BS
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2007, 09:48:55 PM »
Quote from: ""SH""
My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.


Again, you must have a problem with reading for comprehension.  I propose the following:

1.  Personal Responsibility
2.  http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html
3.  A release from the Dogma that is AA and it's kin
4.  Parenting (Personal Responsibility)

Been drinking tonight?  You're not paying attention.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

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Re: Addiction is NOT a choice
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2007, 09:49:55 PM »
Quote from: ""SH""
The last time I checked the clinical field does consider addiction as a disease. Of course, one has a choice to pick up the bottle or snort the cocaine or pop the pills, but, they consider it a disease because an addict is not capable or does not have the normal ability to say no. Their body thinks it cannot live without the drug/alcohol/nicotine/etc. I have never felt the urge to do something so overwhelming that I couldn't quit, but I have friends who have had to seek professional help, and I can tell you that they don't feel they had a "choice". They felt the addiction consumed them. The statement in the post several posts back about addiction not being a disease is false.


All bullshit.
Diseases are medical conditions.
I don't mean to minimize how hard it is for some to use moderation, or the difficulty some experience who try to stop altering their reality, but the misuse of mind altering substances is NOT A DISEASE. There is no genetic link.
They were classified as "disease" so "helpers" could be paid by insurance companies for their "addiction services".

Honestly, How many kids who attend HLA are ADDICTS? How many have/had a "real" drug/alcohol problem?
I'm guessing none, or a very few. They aren't equiped to deal with a truely addicted person. How many are rushed to the hospital for withdrawal symptoms? How many are on Methadone?

I happen to know a person who had smoked pot and abused alcohol on a daily basis for several years. Zero physical withdrawal symptoms except the emotions that he was attempting to avoid dealing with. He did report that those on 'hard' drugs and true alcoholics had a rough time detoxing. Physically ill and were never left alone during detox in case there was an emergency.
Substance abuse and detoxing are NOT DISEASES.

Given that, should what they offer at HLA be called "Addiction" treatment? How about "AA groups offered for pot/drug/alcohol use"?

"Addiction" fits better with the fear mongering agenda. And, by golly, allows HLAs service to be paid by insurance.
They probably don't feel their people need to be certified, or their program licensed because they're basically running an AA group with some good ol new-agey CEDU group confrontation thrown in. Appears that damn near anyone's qualified to do that.

How many go right back to their "habits" when they leave? How many  leave and try all the drugs they learned about in HLA? That's what the discerning parent wants to know. What are they spending $100k+ on? A miracle. Sorry to say.... ain't gonna happen. Read MySpace.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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just one opinion out of many guest
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 09:59:55 PM »
The opinion which you share with us here and the post you copied and pasted (I didnt read EVERY line of each link, sorry I dont have that kind of time on my hands), is one opinion out of many who study addiction. Here are a few links to what I have been trying to get across on here:

http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

http://www.guilford.edu/original/Academ ... gwalt.html

http://vltakaliseji.tripod.com/Vtlakaliseji/id20.html

http://tinyurl.com/2bahxz


I am not trying to say that these studies are infallible. Neither is the other side of the debate infallible. But, leave it open to the possibility that genetics play a role in whether or not a person has a predisposition to become an alcoholic. I am not convinced that some alcoholics are just lazy and could put down the bottle if they wanted to. Some would love nothing better, but, lack the ability to whether it be psychological or biological.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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I dont drink and I dont attend AA
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2007, 10:03:43 PM »
1. I dont drink

2. Ive never attended an AA meeting.

3. I dont believe in AA philosophies. I personally know someone who started going to AA and is now addicted to the AA meetings!

4. Just because I don't agree with your position doesn't mean I can't comprehend. Your statistics aren't the only ones out there. This is not a cut and dry answer to addiction.

5. Why don't you open your mind to the POSSIBILITY that your position that addiction is a choice is flawed.

6. Do we have any clinical psychologists or doctors on board tonight that can add something to this?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

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Funny article
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2007, 10:11:53 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
You still don’t get it.  They put their wedding announcement in the news paper for the purpose of sharing their happiness and their next step in life.  Its not a resume.

Damn skippy. It's not a resume. So why mention that she's an Addiction Counselor at HLA in her wedding announcement?????

Quote
It is not intended to be reposted all over the internet and held up for ridicule for family members and friends to witness your poor judgment and bad taste.

What was in bad taste is her need to embellish. I believe that's considered a disorder, possibly an "addiction".

Quote
If you hand your credit card to your waitress does that allow her to give the number and name to other people?  Can she post it in the kitchen for others to see or write them down and keep a list at home?  Or is there an implied trust that she will use the card for a single purpose?

There's only one person that uses such poor analogies. Regulars know WHO that person is. ::hatter::

Quote
When this woman posted her bridal announcement did she intend or expect to have to defend her qualifications as an addiction counselor?
 

I bet she didn't. That's how programs work. They don't "expect" any one to question or do research.

Quote
Why cant people here try to help others instead of spreading all this hated and self loathing.


Guess it depends on your perspective and definition of "help". There's a lot of help being offered here for anyone who has the good sense to take advantage of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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Re: BS
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2007, 10:57:04 PM »
Quote from: ""SH""
My mother lives next door to a Cherokee Indian Reservation. She has seen first hand the number of alcoholics in proportion to the rest of the population, in comparison to european americans. I am sure your comments you copied and posted will fall on deaf ears to those who live with alcoholism on the reservation. What do you propose? That these Cherokee peoples just want to drink themselves to death? I don't think so.


What a convenient excuse for the racial/economic oppression these people have experienced for over a century.
I'm of Cherokee descent and we had no alcoholics in our family. In fact, they didn't even partake in alcohol. Native Americans have no more 'genetic predisposition' to alchoholism than Europeans, and I resent the sterotyping. The majority of Cherokee assimilated and are productive members of society.
Let's round up a few thousand Europeans, steal their land and all their worldy possessions, except what they can carry. Stick them on barren land with no way to earn a living, force them to practice some foriegn religion, infect them with smallpox, and see how many of those who survive turn to substance abuse to deal with the very unpleasant reality or oppression and captivity. I feel certain a large proportion would become substance abusers.
Then we would observe that a larger proportion of Europeans on the Rez were alcoholics in comparison to the free Cherokees- there's a whole bunch of us who aren't. And conclude that European's must have a 'genetic predisposition' to alcoholism/ substance abuse.

The Europeans didn't send in couselors to help with the utter distress and dispair they inflicted on these people. They did provide THEIR  ALCOLHOL to a population of oppressed who had not had substance abuse issues prior to their arrival. I'm sure some welcomed the "relief".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline TheWho

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Funny article
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2007, 10:59:32 PM »
Quote
So why mention that she's an Addiction Counselor at HLA in her wedding announcement?????

Because that is what some people do.  The write-up and etiquette varies depending on what part of the country you are from.  They announce their engagement/marriage and tell a little about themselves and what they do or their interests.  Most often it is the parents of the Bride who write the whole thing up and submit it, not the ones getting married.
Some may say they are graduates of such and such university school of medicine and are presently chief surgeon of podiatry at “Last Chance Medical Center”.  They typically don’t include all the details of their internships and accolades which got them to where they are.  Some parents get a little over zealous because they are proud of their son or daughters achievements and add more information than others .
Deborah, I was waiting for you to jump in and back this person up (or log-in, wink, wink).  This is right up your alley, you rarely miss an opportunity to knock a kid down a peg who is trying to do good and make a difference.
 ::hatter::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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No racism intended
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2007, 11:22:58 PM »
I certainly by no means intended racism in my comments, I myself have some native american ancestry from my mothers side. My mother has very good friends who are Cherokee, she works on the reservation, and her husband is 1/4 Cherokee. I was posting scientific studies and opinions that pose the possibility that it is genetic differences in native americans that might predispose them to a higher chance of becoming alcoholics. Of course the poverty she sees every day and the dysfunctional family situations don't help with the alcoholism either. So, is it possible that genetics play a role? I think so. I think stating that it in no way plays a role is erroneous and judgemental. And I certainly don't think that the native peoples have been treated fairly. But that is a whole other debate for another time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »