Author Topic: Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care  (Read 55303 times)

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Offline Pitbull Mom

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2007, 03:19:38 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
On wrap around services.
They sent 5 therapist to work with this family until they were stable, then down to 1. This was over the course of several months. Sounds like it might be prohibitively expensive, but they said the cost for this service was significantly cheaper than putting the boy in an RTC.
Found the story:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm
(Last in a 3-part series on alternatives to RTCs)

Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.

I don't believe it's possible to make lasting changes when the child is isolated and far away from the family. They need to learn to work as unit in their home environment. I would much prefer to see my tax dollars going to wrap-around. The one caveat is they may rely too heavily on psych drugs.


Deborah, thanks for the link to this excellent article. I have forwarded the author of this article and several of their news editors - Business, education, health, etc -  the news articles about my son's death, and Barbe's page of all the deaths, along with some information about  the lack of mental health services, the teen industry,  and Utah's negligence.   Hopefully there will be some interest, if not I will find it elsewhere.
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Pitbull Mom

Offline exhausted

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2007, 04:37:42 PM »
When I first came to Fornits, this was my main beef, the lack of help, there simply isn't anyhting out there, no-one cares, no-one wants to know, they just want to shove your problem (your kid) from one department to anohter

The fight I've had over the years to demand help, I've paid too many taxes over the years to not get it, only to hit a brick wall every time

When I finally managed to get soem help, I felt like a weight was lifted, it wasn't anyone taking responsibility from me, I just felt a new release of energy and was able to cope with doing this alone, because the support was lingering in the background when I needed it, something I've never experienced in my life
BIG MISTAKE!!
The second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope

You're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs

I was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens

Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over  :roll:
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Offline Covergaard

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Youth care on Fornits Wiki
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2007, 04:48:47 PM »
are not there - yet

It is on its way

Youth Care on Secret prisons for teens

but a lot of info is missing. Do they have a parent manual?
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2007, 05:08:01 PM »
Quote from: ""exhausted""
When I first came to Fornits, this was my main beef, the lack of help, there simply isn't anyhting out there, no-one cares, no-one wants to know, they just want to shove your problem (your kid) from one department to anohter

The fight I've had over the years to demand help, I've paid too many taxes over the years to not get it, only to hit a brick wall every time


When I finally managed to get soem help, I felt like a weight was lifted, it wasn't anyone taking responsibility from me, I just felt a new release of energy and was able to cope with doing this alone, because the support was lingering in the background when I needed it, something I've never experienced in my life
BIG MISTAKE!!



I just can't believe that there are that many kids out there for whom the only solution is outside the home.  Truly mentally ill kids, maybe but rebellious, crazy, disrespectful, danger-seeking, defiant teenagers?  No!  If you have a truly mentally ill child, get them medical help.

I'm feeling very torn here.  I wouldn't want to presume to tell anyone that their child didn't need 'help', but it just seems like the form of help they're always looking for entails the kids being out of the home.  Now, there's a mom who lost her son to a program.  She says he was so dangerous that she would have been charged with abuse/neglect of her other child if she did not remove her son from the home.  So, I can see where she felt forced into the situation and believed the nice people who told her they'd help her.  Then you've got a couple of AA nuts who are convinced there daughter has a 100 % chance of becoming an alcoholic because they both are.  She's only drank a couple of times.  Their basic complaint is that she's disrespectful.  She's already been through Catherine Freer and now mommie dearest is shopping for another happy place for her to go.  :roll:

Nothing is going to change until parents really begin to take responsibility for their children and their own parenting skills.  



Quote
The second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope

Why?  What's happened?

Quote
You're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs

I believe you that it's all crap, but the solution is not outside the home.  If you're going to try and reform, regulate or otherwise alter this industry, why not concentrate on the fact that it is the EXTREMELY RARE kid, EXCEEDINGLY RARE kid who needs to be removed and work on programs that keep the kid home.  There are already decent ones, from what I'm hearing, like FFT (?).  Deb, help me out here.

Quote
I was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens

Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over  :roll:


Yes, you got slammed, but you did stick with it and found useful information, no?  You gained the respect of quite a few people here too because it was important enough to you, as it should be to every parent either considering these places or are already using them.  I understand that it's shocking for parents when they're spoken to some of the ways they are here, but christ people;  what the hell[/i] do you think these kids went through trapped in taht kind of a world.   Sometimes for months or years on end.  Yeah, Fornits is rough.  Yes, it's full of rage.  Yes, there's a lot of shit that crosses normal lines, but we're not dealing with normal people here.  We're damaged goods, haven't you heard? :rofl:
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Offline hanzomon4

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2007, 05:54:10 PM »
^+1
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #200 on: August 27, 2007, 06:21:46 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""



I just can't believe that there are that many kids out there for whom the only solution is outside the home.  Truly mentally ill kids, maybe but rebellious, crazy, disrespectful, danger-seeking, defiant teenagers?  No!  If you have a truly mentally ill child, get them medical help.

I Wish it was that simple - I've had to go through Government officials who in turn have had to personally scream and rant at the very very limited therapists etc to even get an appointment to find out what's wrong, I now have several diagnosis' for my son, he doesn't just live with ADHD, there are lots of problems that he's suffering with - it is virtually impossible to get help foir any child with any problem.

Yep so he got diagnosed, here child, take Ritolin, no we can't offer any therapy 'cos there no resources, your mum will deal with it - WTF? What do i know abouyt dealing with it? I'm not a fucking psychiatrist!! All I know is what i learn along the way, in an 'oops won't be making that mistake again' kind of learning.

I'm feeling very torn here.  I wouldn't want to presume to tell anyone that their child didn't need 'help', but it just seems like the form of help they're always looking for entails the kids being out of the home.  Now, there's a mom who lost her son to a program.  She says he was so dangerous that she would have been charged with abuse/neglect of her other child if she did not remove her son from the home.  So, I can see where she felt forced into the situation and believed the nice people who told her they'd help her.  
Same would have happened to me, ha ha I was placed as a neglectful mother because of the way things were in my house (erm, I've been screaming, kicking and banging on every door for the last 8-9 years to try to find out what the fuck is going on here) Helllooooooo is no-one listening? No, okay I've worked THAT MUCH out
Then you've got a couple of AA nuts who are convinced there daughter has a 100 % chance of becoming an alcoholic because they both are.  She's only drank a couple of times.  Their basic complaint is that she's disrespectful.  She's already been through Catherine Freer and now mommie dearest is shopping for another happy place for her to go.  :roll:

Yep - the mum is scared, i can see that, with alcoholism being rife through the men in my family i would be too - she needs some reassurance it won't necessarily happen, and if it's going to, it's going to, sending her away isn't going to change a genetic disorder - that much I do see clearly

Nothing is going to change until parents really begin to take responsibility for their children and their own parenting skills.  

Agreed, however, some parents are so at their wits end they don't even know where to start looking at what needs changing, it's scary, you've done your best, you've given them everything, where did it all go wrong? And what do you do to change it? (That's where a parent such as myself needs help, I couldn't see the wood for the trees damn, what a mess)

Quote
The second things started to turn around, due to the fact that i was coping so much better, the quicker the supports gets withdrawn - lol - I feel like I'm back to square one now, things have changed round here for sure, there's no questioning that, but me, personally, I feel alone again and unable to cope

Why?  What's happened?

I just feel very alone and scared again, that i might mess up because I have no support network (again) how long will it take if I really need it back again? What about the future for my son's if I make one very important life changing mistake? I don't have family, I have no partner and very litte contactwith the outside world, all my time is spent working with my children, I can't take them anywhere to socialise because we always end up getting thrown out of wherever we go, friends who ask me round ask me not to bring my kids, so it's mainly footy in the park, swimming, a b it limited when every club i've joined them up with chucks them out or the boys refuse to go anyway *sigh*
Plus I think i'm suffering with depression
:(

Quote
You're all missing the key point, the support does need to be there, it does, it's crap - but it needs to stay in place until everyone is fully in control of what they are doing and have full understanding of what the family as a unit needs

I believe you that it's all crap, but the solution is not outside the home.  If you're going to try and reform, regulate or otherwise alter this industry, why not concentrate on the fact that it is the EXTREMELY RARE kid, EXCEEDINGLY RARE kid who needs to be removed and work on programs that keep the kid home.  There are already decent ones, from what I'm hearing, like FFT (?).  Deb, help me out here.

Again, agreed, hell yer, if you can keep them at home do it, at any cost - even if it does make you want to take your own life at every waking minute, no seriously, the kids should stay home unless they really are a blatant danger to themselves or others, it's normal for teens to get drunk, skip school and basically be a pain in the butt, can anyone here seriously say they didn't do anything their parent's didn't want them to do as teenagers?

Quote
I was slammed, abused, got every bit of shit you lot could find to throw at me when I came here with my story, but I ploughed on because I had to have that understanding for the sake of my family - just like abusive programs, it's taken the death of a child to listen to what is actually needed - no-one ever fucking listens

Now I feel better, thankyou, rant over  :roll:

Yes, you got slammed, but you did stick with it and found useful information, no?  You gained the respect of quite a few people here too because it was important enough to you, as it should be to every parent either considering these places or are already using them.  I understand that it's shocking for parents when they're spoken to some of the ways they are here, but christ people;  what the hell[/i] do you think these kids went through trapped in taht kind of a world.   Sometimes for months or years on end.  Yeah, Fornits is rough.  Yes, it's full of rage.  Yes, there's a lot of shit that crosses normal lines, but we're not dealing with normal people here.  We're damaged goods, haven't you heard? :rofl:
Yer I stuck with it because my kids are more important than how you guys made me feel at the time, I got LOADS of useful information from this site, I learnt more here than I was ever going to learn from the non existent therapists and support networks that I suppose are out there somewhere, I researched, read the links and thanks to the wake up call from Milk (where is he anyways?) I started to realise I was the problem more than anyone (still working on that one - hey a girl finds it hard to realise she aint so perfect)

I understand about the rage program kids/adults feel, I can't/won't/don't know how to let go of the years I spent in care because everyhting was too much effort for my mother, of course I'm bitter about it, I'll take it to my grave no doubt, but I'm not going to let it eat me alive when I have my own children to worry about - youre not damaged goods, youre a victim of a non listening, non caring, resourceless society, as are the next genration and the one after that and so on, makes me want to puke, lessons just aren't being learned here, what's it going to take hmmm?
Exhausted - maybe should change name to worn into the ground, more appropriate me thinks
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Offline Anonymous

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #201 on: August 27, 2007, 06:25:47 PM »
Sorry about my crap quoting, it's very late here, I'm soooo tired but am afraid to go to sleep

- Exhausted, doing a Julie  :lol:
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #202 on: August 27, 2007, 06:39:27 PM »
I know, me too.  That post wasn't specifically directed at you (the "what the hell" part).  I was impressed that you withstood the onslaught from us, both anon and registered users.  

That's what I want to get across to the parents who want to run off because we're so mean.  If their kid, and finding out what is happening or has happened to him/her is important enough to them, they'll tough it out.  Their kid dealt with it 24/7, they can deal with it off and on while reading here.
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anonymous

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #203 on: August 27, 2007, 06:49:43 PM »
Oh aye ... for definite, stick around mums and dads, it's definitely worth suffering the onslaught here rather than having to make tragic posts like Pitbull mum has.....

Oh boy, poor woman  :(
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Offline Pitbull Mom

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wrap around services
« Reply #204 on: August 28, 2007, 02:20:36 AM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
On wrap around services.
They sent 5 therapist to work with this family until they were stable, then down to 1. This was over the course of several months. Sounds like it might be prohibitively expensive, but they said the cost for this service was significantly cheaper than putting the boy in an RTC.
Found the story:
http://www.nyjournalnews.com/rtc/3part3.htm
(Last in a 3-part series on alternatives to RTCs)

Even with therapists assigned to work with Daniel around-the-clock, and with 5,6,8 there at the same time early on, the cost of his care decreased from as high as $8,890 a month while he was in a residential treatment center to $2,000 to $4,000 when he was at home.

I don't believe it's possible to make lasting changes when the child is isolated and far away from the family. They need to learn to work as unit in their home environment. I would much prefer to see my tax dollars going to wrap-around. The one caveat is they may rely too heavily on psych drugs.


This is a great success story, and is the wave of the future in kids' mental health. This exactly what I attempted to procure for my boy, I was horrified at the thought of an out of home placement, and fought it for years. (I know, I should have kept resisting.) It damned near killed me, poster Exhausted sounds like me for the last 10 years. These services are not really available yet, or are underfunded,  unless you have Medi-Cal.  I made a pest of myself and got them written into my son's IEP, but never could actually get the services. Wrap around is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Insurance does not cover it. Most parents cannot afford 2 - 4K per month. Mental health agencies bicker over who is going to pay, and the child and their entire family get lost in the shuffle. I offered to pay, if I could just get access to the in home behavior help. I finally got 1 hour per week after I got a crisis intervention service to come in and work out a family safety plan.  It was great, but too little too late for us. I attended an "interdisciplinary probation meeting" and listened to a bunch of idiots who didn't know my me or my son talk about the cost to their department if they got hit with paying for his services.  This will improve over the next few years. Unfortunately, wrap around services in many counties have not gotten past the initial grant phase. Hollow promises, mostly. The issue with psych drugs in wrap around program is a whole nother story. Many mental health agencies do not even have psychiatrists who are board certified in child psychiatry,  dishing out major drugs to very young children. It's scary. Better to find your own qualified quack er psychiatrist, if you go that route and just pay out of pocket.
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Offline Deborah

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Re: wrap around services
« Reply #205 on: August 28, 2007, 12:00:50 PM »
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Wrap around is a great idea whose time has not yet come. Insurance does not cover it. Most parents cannot afford 2 - 4K per month.


I think it could be done if the parent's intent is to keep their child home and safe from improperly trained/sadistic staff in RTCs. Parents could hand select the professionals they wanted in their homes during the hours all family members are present- those trained in FFT, CBT, autism, etc.
Assess the child's needs in terms of education. A smaller private school may better meet his/her needs, or home schooling.

In terms of cost, why couldn't they afford $2-4000? They pay twice that for some programs. Aspen offers parents 10+ year ammortorized loans to pay for their services. So the parent with the help of their therapist determines how long intense, in-home family therapy will be necessary. Perhaps it's 6 months, maybe a year.  At $3000/mo average, that's $36K. Take out a loan. Refinance the house. Use the same options parents use for programs. And you eliminate the risk of your child being abused or neglected. The peace of mind alone, should be worth the effort.

One hour a week is not enough when a family is in crisis. Weekly visits to a therapist's sterile office aren't adequate. Everyone's on their best behavior and issues can't be addressed as they come up as in the home environment. That's why Super Nanny is so effective. She's right there observind interactions. Giving advice and tips. Notice what she accomplishes in just a week. And it's always the parents that have to change to see improvement in the 'bratty' kids behavior. Help has to come to the home. Society has changed with our nuclear families. There was a time that grandparents, aunts, uncles filled this role. Now one must hire people outside the family, and that will come with a cost.
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Offline Anonymous

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #206 on: August 28, 2007, 12:43:17 PM »
Quote
Milk (where is he anyways?)


Milk has cast aside his pretense of identity to become Anonymous.
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Offline Anonymous

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #207 on: August 28, 2007, 01:27:19 PM »
Deb - good info, thanks!

What do you think of the trend to sell "coaching" as the answer to helping families heal and/or unite?  Eg. Zehnder's Coaching Business

Personally, I think it's a crock of shit and worry that parents who buy into this are exposing their child to another form of child exploitation to say nothing about the potential to do more damage than good.

When does it stop?
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #208 on: August 28, 2007, 01:32:10 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
When does it stop?


When people stop relying on a pill or a book or a person to save them.  Life coaching is a bunch of Newage bullshit.  People are looking for an answer from outside themselves.  They won't find it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline hanzomon4

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Important~ Re: the 14 yo. boy's death at Aspen's Youth Care
« Reply #209 on: August 28, 2007, 01:35:04 PM »
Yeah that coaching stuff is such a crock of shit, peeeee-uuu!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]