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Offline METALGOD8

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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2003, 11:54:00 PM »
I almost forgot, I gotta agree with the car thing. With a tractor, I put one of them YUGO's IN the back of my F-350 once and hauled it to the shredder,  :smokin:
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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2003, 04:31:00 AM »
Marxism is authoritarian leftist.  Anarchists are anti-authoritarians.  Authoritarian communism is horrible and it failed every time it was attempted.  Anarchists despise Marx's agenda.  Anarcho-communism has not been attempted yet, so it is impossible to claim it will be a failure.

Anarchism is nothing about hippie communes.  Hippies were limited almost to primitivism due to a few factors.  They jumped the gun and started their communes without preparation.  They attempted to seal themselves off from society.  Their communities were too small.  They insisted upon each other to live a very limited life, while each person was required to contribute too much to the commune.  They established these communes in areas surrounded by pure capitalism.  They were basically too chicken shit to have a direct action revolution.  Kropotkin wrote about these failures long before the hippies attempted their communes.  I guess they didn't read up.

We wouldn't have to import BMW motorcycles if it wasn't so damn expensive to make equal or better bikes in America.  It's too expensive to do that in the US because of land ownership, usury, workers who need high wages in order to pay their rent and mortgages (relatively much higher than other countries).  The US is the most artificially bloated market on the planet.

Look at every single item in Toys R US.  Everything is made in China by factory workers who work 14 to 18 hour shifts for 12 cents an hour.  No fire escapes.  They live 6 people in 10x10 dorms or in cubby holes.  All so an American corporation can put an $8 price tag on a He-Man figure instead of an American-made $25 price tag on it.  

Something is wrong when America can no longer create an item for a reasonable price... all rooted in corporate tyranny.  Land, zoning, rent and mortgages are jacking prices up beyond belief, keeping us from accomplishing such things.  Land owners and industrial complex developers should not have such a strong hand in the production of goods, but they do thanks to our government.

CEO's do not engineer and create this stuff.  Politicians do not engineer and create it either.  Workers do, so start giving them credit for engineering and machining an awesome motorcycle.  Quit giving credit to people who do nothing but move money around and horde 400 to 1000 times more than they distribute to the engineers and machinists.

Homegrown, or semi-professional heaps are limited to what people can produce currently within the limits of what they have access to in the current system.

The engineers and machinists of the future do not want to create garbage.  They want to create the most incredible equipment and vehicles possible.  It's not just the Germans either.  Americans want to also.  The motorcycle you are talking about is an example of what they are capable of, and you do not need to threaten them with poverty to get them to do it.  Even if you don't believe this, I don't care.  I'm against threatening people with poverty just for the sake of building your damn motorcycle.  If force is required to create something, then we need not create it.

Why are shareholders necessary?  They aren't.  Shareholders are parasites of the capitalist system with their only justification being that the manufacturers need investments in order to aquire resources in an artificially bloated market.  Haven't I been talking about abolishing capital all along?

Create incredible motorcycles without all the useless FAT surrounding it.  Create incredible motorcycles without threatening people with poverty.

You said: Have you ever found socialist products famous for ingenuity, design, style or performance....

My reply to that is: what kind of socialism are you talking about?  It must be authoritarian socialism because that's all that has existed so far.  Anarcho-communism has not happened yet.  It will not be so destitute or limited without an authoritarian central power controling everything and hording damn near all of the capital gain.  The key word I just stated is "limited".  That's exactly what authoritarian communisms do to the people working within them.  It limits them and what they are capable of producing.  Where it does not limit them, it forces them to produce.  Anarcho-communism is limitless except for what the Earth itself and physics limits us to.

Having had a spiritual awakening, I decided to share with others that the following countries are not (and never were) anarcho-communisms: France, Russia, Sweden or Cuba.

You seem to think "hard work" is a path to success.  Would that be hard work for the benefit of executives and politicians?  We should just outlaw "hard work" DIRECTLY for yourself and your local community then.  Oh yeah, the capitalists already did that.  You have to go serve your executive today so you can pay your mortgage company tomorrow.  Maybe you can work directly for yourself a few hours on the two days per week they allow you to not serve them.  Maybe you can directly benefit your community by volunteering, providing band-aids to the damage done by capitalism and get absolutely nothing in return.  That's success alright.  It's success for THEM.

Why not remove luck from the equation in order to be successful?  Why not remove success from being a requirement in order to survive?  When success is required to survive, and luck is required for success, you survive if you're lucky.  I guess that's all great as long as you get to ride a BMW even though such things would exist without luck and success being required in order to survive.


I find your lack of faith disturbing.

-- Darth Vader




Quote
On 2003-05-21 19:50:00, Tampa survivor wrote:

"OH MI GOD GINGER,

people actually still think that way.  Arrgg...can you feel the vibration as Jefferson spins in his grave and Patrick Henry is crawling out of his.

Hey good ole TOTALLY DISPROVEN MR Marx is cheering from his corner of hell.

Little Example:

I ride a BMW motorcyle.  I guarentee that no co-op, hippie commune, or hobbyist engineers could put out ANYTHING close to this machine.  

BMW was paid $15,000 to build it, a bunch of highly paid german people got paid to build it for me after BMW built a huge factory with shareholder dollars.  After all is said and done, all benefit.  

Shareholders values go up and they pay TAXES on that capital gain.

Workers of various stripes got paid.  Sweetly paid at that.  German craftsman don't come cheaply.

And I ride a cool bike, it outrides any homegrown, or semi-professional heap I have ridden, and I feel that it was worth every penny.

Thousands of people every year agree and buy one too.

Have you ever found socialist products famous for ingenuity, design, style or performance....

Hmm, Ever heard of a French, Russian, Swedish or Cuban motorcycle.  Nope.  

okay, lets try FRENCH Cars....

Renault, Citreon, uh, Peugeot...

Opps, they fell apart, sucked, and nobody wanted them.

Hmm, frenchmen toiling in the vineyards so my hard working ass gets a bottle of good Burgundy.  I like that vision.



Oh, BTW, people who inherit money are more likely to be smart with money, and people who are raised around it may learn a lesson or two from whomever LEFT it to them.  Genetics DOES matter.  Education matters more.

I have a T-shirt from my Uncle Rick's company, very, very successful, thanks to his HARD WORK, good anticipation of the future of electronics back in 1975, and dedication from a team richly rewarded to make it happen.

The shirt says

"Success is just a matter of luck...

 ...ask any failure."

Bill

"




[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-22 03:14 ]
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2003, 09:46:00 AM »
Quote
Why are shareholders necessary? They aren't. Shareholders are parasites of the capitalist system with their only justification being that the manufacturers need investments in order to aquire resources in an artificially bloated market. Haven't I been talking about abolishing capital all along?

I'm just curious...did you study economics or politics? Are you running for office? You should.
I mean that sincerely. If not that, then perhaps a journalist. Maybe you are one? What is your profession? (Sorry if you've stated this already)
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2003, 01:41:00 PM »
How do you propose to remove capital? When you figure that out, please look into removing gravity. It's such a destructive force, especially after about 35 years of it.


The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140440607/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Tacitus

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2003, 04:08:00 PM »
:???:
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Offline Tampa survivor

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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2003, 10:03:00 PM »
MG Bill
Your farm use bike sounds like my old 82 honda nighthawk....ridden in Chicago snow, San Diego sand, abused and beaten, run over by a Chevy 4X4(with me on it) and then traded (after welding and torching the frame straight) to a shipmate for 200 bucks or something........
Enjoy it!!

Ginger,
Harley has fine style and a GREAT sound....
been there, done that burned the 98 Sportster shirt!!!
Capitalism cuts both ways:
Henderson motorcycles was started in 1998 by two fabulously wealthy Minnisota guys, reviving a name from the 1930's with a new product, the Henderson Super X.  Unique, beautiful, WAY more power than a harley. A bikers dream. They dumped over 100 million into the plant and everything, but the bike did not sell fast enough to keep it all moving.
Unfortunately for them, Nader had little to do with it...market forces cut both ways and only reward excellence.  The bike was just a touch too heavy, and the motor was awesome, but had reliability and quality problems.  Lots of us bought other bikes waiting for them to get it just right.
OUCH to the Minnesota guys.
Nader is irrelevant.  Has been and will be.  It just kills me when he screws the Dems outta votes.
Bill
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Bill H
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Offline Tampa survivor

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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2003, 10:10:00 PM »
GINGER:
Why don't guys dicks get lower and lower over the years like so many other things do?
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Bill H
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Offline ehm

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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2003, 10:38:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-05-22 10:41:00, Antigen wrote:

"How do you propose to remove capital? When you figure that out, please look into removing gravity. It's such a destructive force, especially after about 35 years of it.





The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140440607/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Tacitus

"




Oooo! Ouch! Yeah...
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Offline Tampa survivor

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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2003, 10:45:00 PM »
BTW, to our anachro communist....
Do you drive?
Do you use electricity?
Have heat in your home?  
Oil gas or electric?  
Eat anything other than what YOU or others you KNOW can produce?
How about use credit?  

Your car is filled with highly complex, difficult to make parts.  Thousands of different ones.  Think about trying to make one.  

Those electrons pushing photons into your face while you read this are produced by a huge monopolistic conglomerate, owned by shareholders.  You can put a stinky diesel generator in.  Costs about 30 times as much to make a KW hour yourself. Thats why nobody does it.  Put in solar?  Ha, better unplug the A/C.  Makes the power company seem a bit nicer, eh?
 Food.  Hell, try to can something.  Grow all you are able of what will grow in your area.  Can it.  Eat it all winter. See if by February you wish Chunky soup was still around in Annarchy Land.
Idealistically speaking I am Objectivist.  Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", or "The Fountainhead".  In the political world, I am a libertarian.  Read and learn about what that means. I bet you find somethings of interest.
http://libertarian.org/
Realistically, people don't WANT to be equal.  I see your valid point about government communism.  But somebody in that co-op will do a slightly better job at something than another, and get rewarded for it.  Or want to be. Leads to dissent.
Eventually coercion results, and that has been the problem with all hive mentallity economic experiments.  
Worker ants in a nest are truly equal in ability and desire; they are also cold enough to eat the lame or old ones.  Not my kinda life.
Bill
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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2003, 04:27:00 AM »
Operating an electrical plant and conducting large scale agriculture does not require government or corporations.  The face of such operations change a great deal in anarchy.  A rough, quick scenario: Instead of about 500 employees with a 40 our week each at today's electrical plant, an anarchist idea would be to saturate the electrical plant with a lot more workers working a lot less hours.  500 people with 40 hour work weeks is 20,000 hours.  Change from a vertical world to a horizontal one, you can get 5000 people to work 4 hour work weeks, or one 8 hour day every two weeks.  The reason they would do it in an anarcho-communism is because the community opens up access to everything else they provide for that one person contributing 4 hours per week at the electrical plant.  Check out how many people live in your city.  My city has about 22,000.  I'm sure there are at least 5000 people surrounding each electrical plant who would think that's a good deal.  If this did not work, it could be moved to market socialism, but that would suck so bad everyone would probably rush to the plant and offer their 4 hours per week.

There are a lot of jobs which would disappear in the transition to anarchy.  Executives, billing clerks, collections people, entire credit card agencies, mortgage companies, rent regimes, and on and on.  All of those people could either die, become primitivists and live in tee-pees in the middle of nowhere, try to make their entire living in market socialism or join a commune and choose which industry they want to learn and participate in.

Anarcho-communism would not apply to everything.  It is a way for everyone to gather and provide what everybody wants/needs without putting a price on it.  Everyone wants/needs it, so everyone creates it.  Imagining it leads me to conclusions that it will be hospitals/medicine, agriculture, raw materials, some construction, some machining, and utilities.  Tool machining would be something done within the communes while the machinist could also deal in market socialism selling tools to non-communal jewelers, luthiers, pool installers, and whoever else they want to deal with.  

The communal electrical plant could put a price on the juice sent to the jewlers, luthiers and other non-communal market operations, while the workers at the plant are all equal and can require that the funds be spread out equally with each person's hours worked making the only differences in pay.  

In a heavily market/industrial area, the electrical plant could have the more condensed 500 employees, all equal, putting a price on all the juice, and getting paid evenly.

Regarding oil & gas: I read the other day that the energy crisis is bologna.  I wish I had the energy to type it out right now.  I'm also not really remembering enough details about it at this time.  I'll get brushed up on it.  I can get more into it later.

What we have now in the capitalist system is TONS more energy consumption than we would in anarchism.  We currently have all people on the road at least twice a day, traveling 30 to 70 miles per day, in order to go to a corporation and burn up more energy overproducing to meet the demands of greedy executives.  These people only do that to pay their rent and mortgages.  We could create a 90% reduction in their necessity to be on the road in anarcho-communism.  Plus, many people's necessity to be on the road would also be reduced by bringing their responsibilities much closer to home instead of having to go 40 miles toward the city to their job, sitting in traffic both ways.  Sitting idle in traffic burns gas too, pointlessly.  Let's get rid of rush hour, and reduce traffic related deaths too.  Plus, stop making kids go to college AND work to pay rent simultaneously.  That's a bunch of pointless driving that serves no one but the ruling class also.

It doesn't really matter how complex my car is.  Executives and politicians did not create it.  I already went over all that regarding a BMW motorcycle.

Hell no I don't use credit.  I am in no debt whatsoever, but I also do not "have" anything.  I don't consider living off of loans having, so I just don't "have".  Everything I have is probably under $1000 except my car.  I go out, make money, buy stuff, quit working until I need more money.

I've known all about the Libertarian party platform for years.  You know they want to abolish Federal Reserve currency, right?  Not that I'm against it, just wondering if you knew.  Anyway, the Libertarian Party wants to keep the one thing in place that all Anarchists want to get rid of... wage slavery, which is will always exist as long as corporations own everything.  The Libertarian Party has a whole lot of things right, but there are fundamentals there which keep us headed down the path to extreme corporate tyranny like never before.  My life would not change one bit with them in power.

Political parties are always infected by the virus known as lobbyists.  You cannot possibly accurately represent 285,000,000 people by condensing us to representation in Washington DC.  Political parties just means taking turns passing every law you want to pass.  The Libertarian party could get in there and remove a bunch of crap, but the Democrats and Republicans will come and re-install every bit of it a few years later.  All people need to become congress.  Let your imagination run wild on the idea of all people having a seat in congress.  Forget the presidency.  That office is useless.

Luckily, we are superior to ants, so we should act like it.  We don't need a government or a corporate heirarcy or restrictions from the means of survival to tell us to not eat the lame or the old.


Quote
On 2003-05-22 19:45:00, Tampa survivor wrote:

"BTW, to our anachro communist....

Do you drive?

Do you use electricity?

Have heat in your home?  

Oil gas or electric?  

Eat anything other than what YOU or others you KNOW can produce?

How about use credit?  



Your car is filled with highly complex, difficult to make parts.  Thousands of different ones.  Think about trying to make one.  



Those electrons pushing photons into your face while you read this are produced by a huge monopolistic conglomerate, owned by shareholders.  You can put a stinky diesel generator in.  Costs about 30 times as much to make a KW hour yourself. Thats why nobody does it.  Put in solar?  Ha, better unplug the A/C.  Makes the power company seem a bit nicer, eh?

 Food.  Hell, try to can something.  Grow all you are able of what will grow in your area.  Can it.  Eat it all winter. See if by February you wish Chunky soup was still around in Annarchy Land.

Idealistically speaking I am Objectivist.  Read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", or "The Fountainhead".  In the political world, I am a libertarian.  Read and learn about what that means. I bet you find somethings of interest.

http://libertarian.org/

Realistically, people don't WANT to be equal.  I see your valid point about government communism.  But somebody in that co-op will do a slightly better job at something than another, and get rewarded for it.  Or want to be. Leads to dissent.

Eventually coercion results, and that has been the problem with all hive mentallity economic experiments.  

Worker ants in a nest are truly equal in ability and desire; they are also cold enough to eat the lame or old ones.  Not my kinda life.

Bill"




[ This Message was edited by: JDavid on 2003-05-23 02:19 ]
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2003, 08:27:00 AM »
I know this has gotten to be quite an intense topic here, but you never answered my question -
"did you study economics or politics? Have you ever considered journalism as an occupation? How do you 'bring home the bacon?'" I'm not trying to goof on you in any way, just curious...
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Offline JDavid

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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2003, 03:56:00 PM »
I was gonna answer that last night.  I had to crash though, somewhere around 5 am.  I'm currently painting a large scene on a wall in a store in Dallas, GA.  I've been doing it at night to stay out of everyone's way.  I'd rather do all my jobs at night.

One thing I do is renovation jobs, mostly interior/exterior paint or wallpaper, bathroom tear-outs, kitchen installations & junk like that whenever renovators I know need someone extra.  I don't want to do it all the time, so I avoid joining some full-time crew.

I get calls from people around here to repair their networks or workstations.  One of them is Pinetree Country Club.  I know both of their networks inside & out.  I've built or done major repairs on some of their computers too.

I did a chunk of the web development at rentphilly.com.  That was a ColdFusion job.  I saw their ad and claimed I knew ColdFusion.  Once they said "ok here's what we need", I had to cram and learn ColdFusion in about 4 days.

In recent months, I have also installed audio systems in stores... you know the circular speakers with the white grills in ceiling tiles?  Running wires everywhere, figuring out how to make the lefts & rights balanced without wiring inline or screwing with the ohmage of the speakers & all that.

No I didn't study economics or politics in any school, except the high school crap they teach in public, government run schools.  

My major in tech school was programming.  I was already writing Windows and DOS software in C++ before I went into tech school.  The first language I learned was Pascal... the language Legend of the Red Dragon was written in.  So, I graduated tech school with Honors, but the market was saturated by then.  

The final C++ job I did was one where I worked on it for 3 months, sent the bill in to get paid, and never got paid.  I was doing an awesome job on it too.  Everyone knew I still had 6 more months to finish it.  I was supposed to be getting paid a huge chunk each 3 months.  I was 28, so that was 2 years ago.


Quote
On 2003-05-23 05:27:00, AlexL wrote:

"I know this has gotten to be quite an intense topic here, but you never answered my question -

"did you study economics or politics? Have you ever considered journalism as an occupation? How do you 'bring home the bacon?'" I'm not trying to goof on you in any way, just curious..."
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2003, 04:53:00 PM »
Well, I admit I don't know that much about bikes. I just admire the Harley story because these guys did just what my dad had always promised me was possible in America and almost nowhere else. They poured their skill and passion into making a better bike, not because they had money burning a hole in their pockets and figured they could convince others to buy it, but because their dream bike didn't exist on the market and they were convinced that they could do something better than anything out there.

But, when you write off Nadar as irrelavent, here's the great unknown. I use his name as a symbol for like-minded government interferance with the free market. So I'm not just talking specifically about regulations with which he's had direct involvement. I'm talking about the whole range of stupid bureaucrat tricks that draw resources and stack the deck against the important aspects of the market.

I don't know if Henderson was a superior bike. I don't know if it might have been a better bike to begin with or if they might have been able to tweak it properly if they hadn't had to throw money, time, energy and design compromises into meeting the government regulations involved in getting raw material, building and maintaining a facility, hiring and compensating craftsmen, counting all those beans and taking on the various kinds of liability that our current system requires of anyone who sells anything to anyone. Have you bought a laddar lately? I have half a mind to buy one, carefully read all the required labels, find a way to hurt myself while following all of the warnings and recomendations then sue the hell out of OSHA for failing to warn me, for example, not to try to use the product on the back of an open pick up moving at the posted speed limit on an interstate highway.

Point is, how much differently would we all do business and conduct ourselves without all the bullshit? That is what a free market looks like. Nothing like what we've got going now.

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2003, 04:56:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-05-22 19:10:00, Tampa survivor wrote:

"GINGER:

Why don't guys dicks get lower and lower over the years like so many other things do?

"


They don't? Wow, I guess I'm luckier than I ever knew. Thanks, TS! :grin:

Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2003, 06:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-05-23 01:27:00, JDavid wrote:

Instead of about 500 employees with a 40 our week each at today's electrical plant, an anarchist idea would be to saturate the electrical plant with a lot more workers working a lot less hours.  500 people with 40 hour work weeks is 20,000 hours.  Change from a vertical world to a horizontal one, you can get 5000 people to work 4 hour work weeks, or one 8 hour day every two weeks.  

The trouble with that is that, instead of having 500 people who are reasonably familiar with daily operations (including navigating around personality conflicts and other non-technical issues) you get 5000 people who can't possibly have a comprehensive understanding of how to run an electrical plant or a motive to invest themselves in it.

Quote

I've known all about the Libertarian party platform for years.  You know they want to abolish Federal Reserve currency, right?  Not that I'm against it, just wondering if you knew.  

Yes, I did know that.

Quote
Anyway, the Libertarian Party wants to keep the one thing in place that all Anarchists want to get rid of... wage slavery, which is will always exist as long as corporations own everything.  The Libertarian Party has a whole lot of things right, but there are fundamentals there which keep us headed down the path to extreme corporate tyranny like never before.  My life would not change one bit with them in power.

I think you're mistaken. I consider a wage slave as someone who must work for the only game in town with no oportunity to go into competitive business or choose another employer. This situation didn't exist before the New Deal.

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Political parties are always infected by the virus known as lobbyists.  You cannot possibly accurately represent 285,000,000 people by condensing us to representation in Washington DC.  Political parties just means taking turns passing every law you want to pass.  The Libertarian party could get in there and remove a bunch of crap, but the Democrats and Republicans will come and re-install every bit of it a few years later.  All people need to become congress.  Let your imagination run wild on the idea of all people having a seat in congress.  Forget the presidency.  That office is useless.



Luckily, we are superior to ants, so we should act like it.  We don't need a government or a corporate heirarcy or restrictions from the means of survival to tell us to not eat the lame or the old.

Right. I think the best idea the Libs have going is to encourage everyone to get involved on the local level. Phuck the presidency. We all know that a vote for the Lib candidate for president is an effective vote for "none of the above". Not that that's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I do it every 4 years, regardless.

I think the most effective and peaceful way to dismantle the most destructive aspects of government with minimal disruption is for everyone to get as involved as possible in local government. When people are more invested in their own local affairs, with which they can be familiar enough to make sensible choices, and less invested in national affairs, where will they find people willing to enforce Federal regulations that are counter to local interests?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »