Niles being rational again. TOPIC: IMMIGRATION (mexicans)

[Nihilanthic]

GASP. I SAID IT OUT LOUD.

No, koko, calm down, its not gorilla time.

Anyway, people get emotional and talk about rights, morals, etc about immigration, and quite frankly thats all a bunch of bullshit.

First, I will refute all the whiners, then give my plan to find a way to fix this.

Firstly, mexicans do not have any right to the USA. They're native MEXICANS. The native AMERICANS, that have rights (According to their logic) to the USA, are either exterminated or on reservations.

Furthermore, any group of people that own a land right now, invariably took it from someone who came before them.

ALSO, that "I'm native to this whole continent" argument doesn't work for Nicaraguans trying to get into Mexico, for example.

So, cry more.  ::boohoo::

Also, speaking out about how this nation benefited from immigrants and how all Caucasian whites here are immigrants... that may be true, but thats pretty much a bunch of emotional nonsense from the left. The big thing is poor immigrant groups have this nasty habit of making their own enclaves, keeping to themselves, having high crime rates, and generally not assimilating into the country as a whole for several generations.

That's bad.

Also, the mexicans moving in are drawing from social programs, aka "handouts", and that money can't just appear from thin air without inflation... er. whoops, not the right time for that! Also, infrastructure will be strained by a massive populatiin influx such as what we are seeing... roads, sewers, housing, food... you name it. Whereas, before we really had those new-deal programs, immigrants didn't get shit and didn't cost us anything!

That's bad... for us, and for them, respectively.

So, if we just let them run in for whatever reason, we have to pay for the shit so they can get around, not have crap pile up in their houses, have food to eat, electricity, running water to flush the crap down, education, etc, etc... right?

WHOSE GOING TO PAY FOR IT?

Either we have to cut all social programs (not a good idea) or just to them (that would piss them off and god knows we can't do that either) or raise taxes (and piss off whitie, and we know what happens when you do that...) or...

WE CAN DO THE LOGICAL THING!

WEIGH THE PRO OF CHEAP LABOR WITH THE CON OF THEIR TAX BURDEN ON SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND INFRASTRUCTURE, HABIT OF POPPING OUT TOO MANY KIDS, AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE CULTURALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY REMOTE AND WILL BE FOR GENERATIONS, AND ACCORDINGLY PUT QUOTAS ON IMMIGRATION!

That way, we win the cheap labor, and we don't have so many swarm in that we end up having a net loss. Thats the everyone wins (except those who don't make the quota, sorry guys!) And just maybe we might attract some educated Mexicans instead of just poor ones.

NOTE: This sarcastic but rational post has been brought to you by Niles. If you have problems with it, post away, but prepared for me to not give a slightest fuck about emotions or subjective morality.

[BuzzKill]

I would agree that we can't have a flood of folks, from any other nation, just coming across our border at will.

But I also don't like the idea of arbitrarily forcing them back, with out regard for the life they are living here - and the life they may have to return to. I'm not so much thinking Mexico, as say maybe Sudan or Iran, in this last case. But to send a person back to certain death is simply not something that should ever happen, even if they are not exactly legally living here.  

As for the Mexicans, if they are found to have been living here for years - and if they are working and supporting their family - I have no problem with amnesty and eventual permanent residence.

If they are working, then they are also paying taxes - and the thing about the Mexicans - they do work.

I am glad we have the Mexican's we have around here. I realize I might feel differently if I lived on the border and my town or state was over whelmed. But around here, the Mexican population is an asset.

An old friend recently told me an amusing story. She worked in a chicken processing plant. She had several funny stories to tell, all of which might make a vegetarian out of even the most devoted Cournal Sanders fan; but she mentioned that her boy friend up in Ohio was complaining he couldn't get his work force to work. She told him what he needed was some Mexicans.

I had to agree, based on what I have seen around here, they will work, but wondered why she said that. She explained that prior to the Mexican invasion at the chicken plant, there were a certain number of employees who didn't do much work. They would just do-loly here; and do-lolly there - and if you said go stack those crates; or dump that hopper; or pick up those chickens - they would say In a minute - in a minute - then do lolly some more. But once the Mexican's came, they were no longer the only minority  - the Mexican's qualified; and the Mexicans worked. So - they to then had to work if they wanted their job. They then worked as hard as anyone else - glaring at the Mexican's as they did. Maybe it doesn't translate so well - but she had me laughing out loud when she told it.

Which bring to mind the attempt to encourage the educated from Mexico to relocate. How many educated Mexicans (or Americans) do you think will want to gut your chickens, or pick your apples, or clean your hotel rooms, or roof your house after the storm? And do you really want that educated Mexican applying for the job you covet?

[Anonymous]

You just gave me a long winded, overly detailed anecdote that had basically nothing to do with the points I just said.

On a NATIONAL LEVEL, someone has to find out the point of diminshing returns to the benefit of having cheap labor vs how much they will cost the tax base for social programs for their benefit.

No matter how lazy non-mexican workers are, that is still an issue.

Plus, a flooded supply in the labor market isn't going to HELP unemployment last I checked... unless its creatings jobs with a mexican consumer base  :rofl:

At any rate, a lot of Hospital systems are overwhelmed, any population growth this fast will make strains on social programs and infrstructure, and they do cost tax money.

Whether or not we break even, I don't know, but I sure would like to find out.

[Anonymous]

The beaners should be able to take a shuttle up here and clean up my dog's shit and dishwash and cook some rolled tacos. They can dig some holes, build my fence, mow my lawn. I just don't want ot see them. They should have to go back to mexico and take my dog shit with them.

[BuzzKill]

///At any rate, a lot of Hospital systems are overwhelmed, any population growth this fast will make strains on social programs and infrastructure, and they do cost tax money.///

I have read that this is a problem in some communities. As I mentioned - I realize might feel differently if I lived in a border state.

///Whether or not we break even, I don't know, but I sure would like to find out.///

I would too. But shouldn't we figure it out before we pass the laws? Might help pass a better law.  It doesn't seem as if anyone looks at the whole picture - studies the entire set of facts. Reminds of the parable with the blind men and the elephant.

Sorry you didn't like my friend's story. I thought it pertinent - and it was funny when she told it. Maybe it just seemed funny b/c it followed the story about a "lost" stop button and chickens backing up and raining down, while the super had a fit.

[Nihilanthic]

Considering the act of congress (literally) it would take to get them out if we don't stem the tide... I think we should slow or stop the immigration until we figure it out.

We are not required by any RATIONAL basis to do what amounts to taking Mexico's excess population (Scrooge time!) as our own problem.

Even if its a economic gain for us no matter how many enter, there will still be the issue of their cultural and linguistic remoteness from the already established set of subcultures and consumer-culture, and that will not just magically turn into people sharing cupcakes and singing "Kumbaya" overnight. They'll stick to their own, there will be a rift between them and others, there will inevitably be unrest with each side blaming the other and taking shit out on the other, and immigrant gangs and immigrant gang crime is already a big problem in a lot of areas.

I don't know about you but millions of "Second class citizens" running around is not exactly GOOD for stability, no matter how you look at it! It will be GENERATIONS before they fully assimilate, and I'm kinda afraid that in 10-20 years you'll see people blaming shit on them, as convenient targets... politically.

And if I have to further explain why that could turn into a big fat reactionary can of worms I suggest you read up on Germany in the 1930s....

 :roll: Why is it people just pretend these problems don't (or won't) exist? They sure as hell will! It IS NOT a case of having to do the right thing (thats stupid in terms of international politics, as it is each nation for itself) nor is it a case of they're all humble hardworking cheap labor, because they're still culturally Mexican, and don't seem keen on "Americanizing".

Shit, they want to live here but vote in mexican elections! WTF?

[BuzzKill]

I pretty much agree with you Niles. The flood of people across the border has got to stop. I guess I am simply hoping for rational, well thought out solutions to the situation of those who are here and who have a life established.

I do wonder just what can best be done to stem the tide of free flowing bodies across the border? Any thoughts?

[Nihilanthic]

Simple.

BE SOVERIGN OVER OUR OWN FUCKING BORDER!

Put up fences, put up ARMED military patrol units, and SHOOT people who cross it illegally!

MOST nations would do such things, and continue to do such things. Mexico thinks its special, and becuase enough people snuck in, they think they can sneak in too.

Apparently, so do the drug runners... that is think that way.

At any rate, it is the height of insanity when political correctness prevents you from securing your own fucking border. We are by definition NOT soverign over our border with mexico right now.

ARGH.

Mexico does the same when people from central america try to move into mexico! WTF? That damn gorilla's getting pissed, man!

[Anonymous]

Insanity is thinking that it's a good idea to shoot people who are just crossing an imaginary line in order to seek out a better life for themselves and their families. Have you gone down to the poor areas of Mexico and see what they live like? On a purely moral standpoint we as Americans should give up some of our rich lifestyles to help these people, who live so close to us in really poor conditions. But the ironic thing is that it doesn't take away from America's wealth and lifestyle to welcome these people it actually helps economically. They should just remove the border and integrate Mexico and America into one country and allow everyone freedom of movement.

[Nihilanthic]

Insanity is thinking that it's a good idea to shoot people who are just crossing an imaginary line in order to seek out a better life for themselves and their families. Have you gone down to the poor areas of Mexico and see what they live like? On a purely moral standpoint we as Americans should give up some of our rich lifestyles to help these people, who live so close to us in really poor conditions. But the ironic thing is that it doesn't take away from America's wealth and lifestyle to welcome these people it actually helps economically. They should just remove the border and integrate Mexico and America into one country and allow everyone freedom of movement.

Insanity is thinking that any other nation on earth would let an emotional driveley sob-story violate their soverignty.

Mexico doesn't let in Central Americans... but we should let in mexicans?

Need I remind you enough people swarm in it WILL cost us in the end? They will not pay into taxes as much as they will utilize social programs. Unless you want everyones benefits to start to disappear, or your taxes to go up, you got to get real and do some math. Money doesn't just magically fucking appear.

Nor does any other issue try these nonsensical, EMOTIONALLY based arguements. This boils down to Mexico can't and doesn't want to deal with their own problems, encourage them to come here, and we're stuck with millions of culturally remote immigrants who dont like us and don't fit in, and pretend that nothing bad will happen!

But at any rate...

On a purely moral standpoint we as Americans should give up some of our rich lifestyles to help these people, who live so close to us in really poor conditions.

Good fucking luck on that  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

Insanity is thinking that any other nation on earth would let an emotional driveley sob-story violate their soverignty.

I don't understand, who is an emotional driveley sob story?

Mexico doesn't let in Central Americans... but we should let in mexicans?

Sure. America is not Mexico, and shouldn't compare itself to third world countries and do what's right. If it works for both countries, then why not. The only thing holding it back, like you said, was the perceived cultural differences which are bogus and not an issue unless you are are racist or afraid of brown people or something.

Need I remind you enough people swarm in it WILL cost us in the end? They will not pay into taxes as much as they will utilize social programs.

Is that a fact? Are the hundreds of billions a year going to support killing people all over the world, having huge fleets of nuclear floating launch pads capable of destroying the world more important than helping some young girl have a healthy baby rather than turn her back to the pimps and squaller of the poorer areas or Mexico? This country has got things completely backwards. There is plenty of money, it's just going to all the wrong things.

Unless you want everyones benefits to start to disappear, or your taxes to go up, you got to get real and do some math. Money doesn't just magically fucking appear.

Sure it does, do you think they mine dollars out of the ground or something? Welcome to the new world economy.

Nor does any other issue try these nonsensical, EMOTIONALLY based arguements.

Kind of like it does on this forum, because when you see people suffering with your own eyes, it's hard to just sit and talk statistics, taxes and monetary policy. Because to those who have seen it, smelled and felt the effects in real life know this is about people, and the other shit can be solved if people's own mindsets didn't stand in the way of progress.

This boils down to Mexico can't and doesn't want to deal with their own problems, encourage them to come here, and we're stuck with millions of culturally remote immigrants who dont like us and don't fit in, and pretend that nothing bad will happen!a

So you should punish people for their corrupt government? If you lived in a cardboard shack with your entire family for your whole life you might understand their perspective a bit more...

But at any rate...

On a purely moral standpoint we as Americans should give up some of our rich lifestyles to help these people, who live so close to us in really poor conditions.

Good fucking luck on that  :rofl:

It will happen one way or the other. Integration is inevitable, it's going to happen eventually.

[BuzzKill]

They should just remove the border and integrate Mexico and America into one country and allow everyone freedom of movement.

They are working on it. Google: North American Community / Counsel on Foreign Relations

[Deborah]

Sounds like you've bought the fear-mongering propoganda Niles. Don't scapegoat the wetbacks.

If you're really worried about the economy and your taxes, best be looking at Corporate Welfare and jobs going overseas and the 'debt' we're incurring with this so-called war.
How much of your taxes do you think goes to social services for illegal immigrants?
How much do you think the produce you purchase would cost if illegals weren't working the fields? Beef and other commodities too, for that matter.
Exactly what social services do you believe they qualify for?  Hell, with all the welfare reform, a US citizen can't get welfare unless the are absolutely skid-row destitute. Try it sometime. Or just call your local welfare office and ask how one qualifies. While you're on the phone with them, ask what services are available to illegals.
How much of your taxes goes to Corporate Welfare?
How much of your taxes are going to secure profits for oil companies in this 'war' to secure Iraq's natural resource for American corporations?
http://costofwar.com/
If they want the oil, they should pay to secure it. Cost of doing business.
How many corporations have moved their money offshore and pay NO taxes? Leaving that burden for me, you, and the illegals who pay taxes?
How many jobs have gone offshore with NAFTA, since Bush took office? I stopped counting, but enough that many in the working/middle classes were pinched. Huge layoffs in what was thought to be secure corporations.

And you want us to incur more taxes, further enrich corporations, to build a fucking wall and hire armed patrols to kill tresspassers? Sounds like a good strategy for Iraq and Iran just now.

Go here
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/auxil ... hart.html#
and enter the amount of federal income tax you paid during 2005 and see how the government spent the money.
Note: Totals may not add up to 100% due to rounding.plug in the amount you paid in taxes and see where it went. Example:

Of the $3000.00 you paid in taxes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$855.00 goes to the military
$561.00 goes to pay the interest on the debt
$606.00 goes to health care
$198.00 goes to income security
$123.00 goes to education
$111.00 goes to benefits for veterans
$81.00 goes to nutrition spending
$60.00 goes to housing
$42.00 goes to environmental protection
$9.00 goes to job training
$348.00 goes to all other expenses  
NPP INCOME TAX CHART test

Where do your tax dollar go? Notes and Sources  
Thursday, 06 April 2006  
Breakdown of the Individual Income Tax Dollar: Your income taxes are allocated to the Federal funds budget; this is the budget that has been broken down for the chart on page 1 of Where Do Your Tax Dollars Go? The total federal government budget includes the Federal funds and the trust funds budgets. Trust funds include Social Security, Railroad Retirement, and others. All numbers are derived from the tables of individual federal agency budgets as provided in the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), Budget of the U.S. Government, FY2007, Analytical Perspectives. The breakdown is for outlays (as opposed to budget authority) in fiscal year 2005, since this most closely corresponds to your tax filing. Total Federal funds outlays in 2005 were $1,865,494,000,000. We have defined the categories on the bar chart as follows:

Military ($532.2 billion) includes the function area (referring to government categories) national defense, and sub-function area international military assistance.

Health ($377.1 billion) is the Federal funds portion of all health spending by the federal government, including the Federal funds spending on Medicare.

Interest on the Debt ($348.5 billion) refers to the interest payments paid on the national debt. The military share of the interest payment is based on the average historical share of national defense spending. Since interest payments are on the debt which has been accumulated over time, the allocation of shares between military and non-military spending takes this into account.

Income Security ($124 billion) includes Federal funds outlays on the function area income security with the exception of housing assistance, and food and nutrition assistance, which are separately illustrated on the graph. This category includes Supplemental Security Income ($38 billion) which provides cash assistance to disabled, elderly and blind who have very low incomes; payments where Earned Income Tax Credit exceeds tax liability ($34.6 billion); Temporary Assistance for Needy Families ($17.4 billion); payments where child credit exceeds tax liability ($14.6 billion); foster care and adoption assistance ($6.4 billion); child care spending and a variety of other small programs for children and families.

Education ($76 billion) includes all Federal funds outlays on elementary, secondary, and vocational education, higher education, and research and general education aids, subfunctions defined by the government.

Veterans? Benefits and Services ($69.1 billion) includes the Federal funds portion of the Department of Veterans? Affairs and any other Federal funds spending on the function area veterans? benefits and services.

Nutrition ($50.7 billion) includes any Federal funds outlays classified as food and nutrition assistance, including the Food Stamp program, all child nutrition programs (such as the National School Lunch Program) and others.

Housing ($37.9 billion) includes all Federal funds outlays defined by the federal government as housing assistance.

Natural Resources and the Environment ($26.6 billion) includes all spending on the government-defined function area natural resources and the environment.

Job Training ($6.3 billion) includes the total for training and employment services as defined by the government.

Other ($217.2 billion) includes everything else not listed above and is comprised of the following function and subfunction areas: international affairs outside of international security assistance (included above in military); general science, space and technology; energy; agriculture; commerce and housing credit; transportation; community and regional development; labor and social services outside of training and employment services; justice; general government; and undistributed offsetting receipts.
 

Corporate Welfare: If corporate welfare were eliminated tomorrow, the federal government could provide taxpayers with an annual tax cut more than twice as large as the tax rebate checks mailed out in 2001.
http://www.cato.org/fiscal/corporate-welfare.html

The federal government currently spends $75 billion a year on direct subsidies to business.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-254.html
 
The federal budget contains more than 125 programs that subsidize private businesses, and in fiscal year 1995, more than $85 billion of the taxpayers' money will be spent on these programs.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa225.html

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#65767

A Case Study of Corp Welfare
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa241es.html

Barons of Bankruptcy
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... /07/033241

Top 100 Corporate Criminals (Predators) of the Century
http://corporatepredators.org/top100.html

[Nihilanthic]

Deb -

I am RIGHT behind you regarding how bullshit this war is and how ridiculous our corporate welfare/state capitalism is right now, but nevertheless...

We ain't going to stop that overnight! Sure, if this stupid war just poofed into a memory and not a reality and the military industrial complex went the way of the do-do, we'd have more than enough money to feed clothe and educate every immigrant that could make it here, and probably go pick up some more who don't even want to come.

But that's not happening! People won't wake up and put a stop to it tomorrow anymore than they'll wake up the next day and send Delta Force to Tranquility Bay and SWAT/ATF to domestic programs, now are they?

I also agree that PROPERLY MANAGED (which it isn't managed AT ALL) the population growth they represent would be a benefit. But, again, its not managed at all, and all attempts at controlling, managing, or stopping the influx is shot down.

But even if the economics of it sorts itself out (or, rather, some beaurocrats quietly go bald fixing it all up while politicans be demogagues to the populace), those idiots in Iraq stop shooting eachother and our soldiers and the come home, and Halliburton gets sold off to sepereate parties, we still have millions of culturaly mexican people living here who don't really want to be american, and that will not bode well for stability in the short and medium term at all.

Disenfranchized, disliked (by some, how many is up to debate - and I dont really feel one way or another personally to illegal immigrants, I just get a bit miffed when they get pissed at ME if I dont speak spanish at work...) and culturally remote people who tend to be poor don't just sit idle and do the right thing quietly. That almost never happens historically and I doubt it will this time.

Seeing as history rhymes if it doesn't repeat itself, I wonder who will scapegoat the 'wetbacks' in the 30s... I just hope I'm far gone by then or have the means to bug out if it starts going to hell (or, worse, keeps going to hell given the direction Bush has taken us...)

But hey! Why bother stopping the influx and telling them no means no until we figure it all out? Lets just let them go where ever the fuck they want, becuase the native NORTH americans are all on reservations or extinct and don't have any say in this matter, just mexicans who think contintential ancestry means they can roam free!  :roll:

Sorry but I find it supremely ironic when some MEXICAN says they have a right to north america, when the native north americans aren't even spoken of, if they still exist on some reservation somewhere!  :rofl:

[Deborah]

Here's the truth Niles.
They wouldn't be coming to the US if US citizens weren't willing to employ them. They couldn't otherwise afford the cost of living here. Most live in shantys and send almost every penny they earn back to their families in Mexico- or at least that's the way it is in Tx.

Who's really at fault here? Rather than building an expensive wall (with our tax dollars) and manning it with armed guards, put US citizens who are caught employing them in front of a firing squad or slap them with long-term prison sentences and the problem would be solved. No "managing" necessary. No jobs, no illegals. Send a message to business that if they can't pay US citizens a living wage and be financially solvent, then they apparently need to close their businesses and become wage employees themselves. Much more humane than killing people who are trying to eek out a living for their families. Hint: government supports business. Business like illegals (low wages/no benefits). Do you really think either want the immigrants gone? Nah, but they're sure keeping everyone else busy debating it. Gotta give the masses someone/thing to vent their frustrations at besides those who are raping them.
 
They aren't nearly the drain on social services that the media would have you believe. Not sure how to convince you of that except to call the welfare office and ask what services are available to them.

So, we're down to their attitude. Well, they did once 'own' the state I live in, just as Natives 'owned' the whole of the US, although had no concept of 'owning land'. They thought that was a ridiculous concept. Yes, Natives still exist on the pathetic lands the Europeans placed them on, reservations. And many of us (mixed heritage) are assimilated into the population.

Sorry but I find it supremely ironic when some MEXICAN says they have a right to north america, when the native north americans aren't even spoken of, if they still exist on some reservation somewhere!

Are you native? Who ultimately has a 'right' to North America? European immigrants? Mexican immigrants? Natives?

The ending of the 'war' in Iraq is not dependent on the Iraqis ceasing their internal war. We won't be leaving there anytime soon because American corporations want the OIL. As long as there is a resource there that has value to an American, our tax dollars will be spent on securing it for them.
And keeping your attention focused on illegal immigrants as the scapegoat, or same sex marriage, or any of the other bullshit they distract Americans with- you might not notice all the jobs going offshore, or how much of your (and your offsprings for several generations) money is being siponed into the pockets of corporations, or that this war is not about terrorism, but about securing future profits for oil companies. Personally, I'd rather my tax dollars be spent on developing alternative energy. My cousin's son is heading to Iraq next month. I'm sick about it. I hate that he could loose his life, not defending this country, but defending the US 'right' to rape and pillage.