Author Topic: Help please!  (Read 4555 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Help please!
« on: May 05, 2007, 12:10:47 PM »
Ok, I need some advice out there from anyone willing to give it to me.  I know this is a thread for teens but I am at my wits end with my 10 year old stepson.  Basically he could care less about school at this stage of his life (which is very unfortunate because he is very intelligent) and his last report card was all F's.  We have been in the know about his schoolwork because we have talked several times weekly with his teacher, he is seeing the school counselor 2x a week and we have tried every incentive to give him some motivation.  This all started the last 6 weeks of his schoolyear last year and started immediatly after school began this year.  He hides homework, throws it away, says he doesn't know what he did with it, so on and so on.  He will not complete in class assignments, disrespects his teacher and lies all the time.  The child has practically been grounded this entire school year and will be repeating the same grade next year.  We currently have no health insurance and financially cannot afford any kind of counseling outside of what the school offers at this time.  We absolutly hate the fact that he is in trouble all the time but are trying very hard to teach him the consequences of his actions.  Any suggestions on how to get through to him and how we as parents can be supportive and structured to help him would be greatly appreciated.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 12:19:27 PM »
Put the little bastard in the worst program you can find! He deserves it!!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 12:32:11 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Put the little bastard in the worst program you can find! He deserves it!!!

Now if I didn't know any better, I'd say you was a regular jackass!
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2007, 12:41:57 PM »
Stop punishing him and stop getting him psycho-analyzed. You want his ear and voice not compliance.  Explain to him that he can tell you anything without you freaking out or punishing him. In that way you may be able to get him talking to you about whats going on in his life. This is a two way street, i.e he will also listen. What you say is what will be with him when you are not, and this ultimately is maturity.

I swear we would all act crazy if folks treated us as if we were broken.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2007, 12:45:14 PM »
Kids don't deserve no goddam rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses!
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2007, 12:47:39 PM »
Quote
Basically he could care less about school at this stage of his life (which is very unfortunate because he is very intelligent)



You just answered your own question. He hates school because he's too fucking smart for it. He's probably bored, frustrated and irritable with the non engaging rote-method of memorization that most schools employ to try to drill information into kids' heads. I'm sure the reason he doesn't want to do his homework is because it's boring as hell and doesn't challenge his mind. Even if it may teach him something he doesn't know yet, it doesn't engage him, or excite him.

In short, the problem isn't with your son, it's with the school, and the school-system as a whole.

Most smart kids are discipline problems and make poor grades. We get BORED! I spent more time standing outside of the classroom than in it because I used to get into so much trouble. I'm an artist, I have a BFA in painting from Syracuse University, I won a $3000 grant, am currently studying to be a character animator, and I made an F in art my freshman year of high school. Not because I couldn't do the work,  but because it WAS BORING! I didn't care, because it didn't engage me.

Ginger would probably be the person to ask about alternatives and how to work with a fiercely intelligent child who can't deal with boring normalcy. (antigen's ghost)
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2007, 12:47:58 PM »
Fuck you, motherfucker.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 12:54:01 PM »
We tried talking and listening and all of that good stuff but it did absolutly no good.  He started seeing the counselor at school after we realized that he was not going to open up to us. When I say that we have exhausted every option we can think of, I mean it.  The punishment started after he realized that he can do whatever he wants with no consequences.  At the end of the day all I want is for him to be happy and know that we love him but right now he is so self absorbed that he will not let us in.
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 12:56:21 PM »
Quote from: ""crazed""
We tried talking and listening and all of that good stuff but it did absolutly no good.  He started seeing the counselor at school after we realized that he was not going to open up to us. When I say that we have exhausted every option we can think of, I mean it.  The punishment started after he realized that he can do whatever he wants with no consequences.  At the end of the day all I want is for him to be happy and know that we love him but right now he is so self absorbed that he will not let us in.



Did you not read a word of what I wrote? Or are you in with the troll?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 01:26:51 PM »
I was replying to what someone else wrote, no need to be an ass.
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 02:28:30 PM »
Quote from: ""crazed""
We tried talking and listening and all of that good stuff but it did absolutly no good.  He started seeing the counselor at school after we realized that he was not going to open up to us. When I say that we have exhausted every option we can think of, I mean it.  The punishment started after he realized that he can do whatever he wants with no consequences.  At the end of the day all I want is for him to be happy and know that we love him but right now he is so self absorbed that he will not let us in.


The same things could have been said about me when I had a 5 yr episode of major depression. You won't get a fix, nothing can be done to make him happy. Forced therapy or Behavior modification schools will only teach him betrayal and how to bury his feelings, not healthy. You will only fail if you keep trying to force him to be happy. What you can do is be in his corner and be an ear he can turn to with anything.

Trust me when I was sick, during most of high school and a few years afterwards, everything from SSRIs to talk therapy failed. The one thing I always had was a mother who would listen without punishing me or forcing me to do therapy or drugs. I couldn't make it at school most of the time and instead of punishing me for not going she found a program run by my school district that allowed school teaches to teach me at home or the library twice a week. I barley made it through school and I'm very intelligent. The only reason why I did make it was because my mother listened when I said I couldn't make it and gave me encouragement  when I felt like a total failure.  She also viewed school as being 2nd to my mental health, as did my teachers.

She was scared to death that she might lose a son, and a good friend. At first she tried to make me happy, but she couldn't. After 5 years of hell it just went away. Believe me I didn't want to be depressed and in my case nothing "real" was causing my depression, it was all mental. Trying to force someone who is depressed to be happy  is like trying to force a cancer patient to be cured.

Speaking of cancer, I remember a documentary about children with leukemia  called "Lion in the house". They had a 7 yr. old who became infected with a fungus and her caner returned. The doctor said that they could only make her comfortable, she was going to die. The mother accepted it but the father kept pushing it. The girl did not want to go through any more painful treatments, but the father kept pushing. I thought that the father was right to keep fighting but I was so wrong, as was he. The doctor finally said that they could try one more treatment, a long shot at the most and false hope most likely. The mother's pleas were ignored as were the girls screams. The treatment failed and she died a short time later. At the end her father put her through hell because he was selfish and focusing only on his own fear of loss. The mother was still very upset at the end and the father was remorseful, he knew that he caused her unnecessary pain before her death.

Your situation is similar, after a certain point you have to just be there. My mother did and I lived, others might not have. But the point is fighting to make him happy or enthusiastic about life may only cause him more pain on top of the pain he's already going through. At this point it's not about "program or no program", "meds or no meds"....  Right now it's all about him, ask him what he wants.

Space?

Time off?

Therapy?

His choice, anything else is an illusion.


Whatever you do good luck and God bless you, I know it's not easy....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 02:54:21 PM »
Thank you for sharing hanzomon4.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2007, 03:49:35 PM »
This is very long because I'm giving you actual, practical advice from my own experience helping my daughter--who is your kid's age and has a major mental illness. She's probably more seriously ill than your child, but maybe not. Also, from helping a teenager with cutting, borderline personality disorder, and bipolar disorder. Also, from helping myself--I have bipolar disorder and am functional enough that I'm a successful novelist. You can check that--it's not a bipolar delusion--my name is Julie Cochrane and you can find me on Amazon.

Anyway, it's long, but I've done this kind of parenting before, myself, still do, and I hope you'll find some of these things useful for you.

Most people with financial problems don't know what's available from their county services. Call the health department of your county and ask. In our experience, county therapists and pdocs are usually okay, school counselors are worse than useless.

Usually, county services are based on ability to pay, and what they expect from you is usually quite reasonable in the context of your situation.

Get your kid in a support group if nothing else. Yahoo has good support groups. If there isn't a support group that fits your kid, make one and advertise it, gently, on appropriate chat boards.

Join CABF. Even though your child is probably not bipolar, the parent forums can probably help you a lot, if only to be a listening ear.

I know all this because I have bipolar disorder and our eleven year old daughter has bipolar disorder.

Ask the school to have your child tested for eligibility for services under federal disabilities law. They have to do it. If your child has a learning disability, he qualifies for an IEP. If he has a mental health problem--which he obviously does--then he qualifies as EBD (emotionally or behaviorally disabled) which means he qualifies under federal disabilities law, section 504 of something or other, for what's called a 504 plan.

Learn everything you can off the web about federal disability education law. You'll need it. The schools will not help you unless you know your rights and know how to be a squeaky wheel.

Your child is entitled by federal law to a Free, Appropriate, Public Education (FAPE).

What this all means in practice is that if your child is too mentally ill to manage homework right now, they have to modify the homework to an amount he can do, or not count off, or not count off as much, for him not having it.

My child used to lie a whole lot and still occasionally has relapses. I found great advice on the web from other parents:

You never ask the child a question that would tempt him to lie. Instead of, "Did you do your homework" you say, "Show me your homework."

Instead of, "Did you do the dishes?" you say, "Show me how well you did the dishes."

Never ask about anything, check everything. Every time you check, you have the child show you so he has an opportunity to get caught doing something right. Praise him for doing whatever it is well. If you can't get him to do big things, start with little things he will do and work up. "Can you get the towels so I can wash them?" "Hey, show me where you put the towels." "Thanks. I really appreciate you helping me with that."

Start with things as little as you can be sure he'll do. The important thing is to set him up to succeed, and build on those successes.

You can't go head to head with an oppositional child. Well, you can, but your results will suck. You have to find things the child wants to do better, talk with him sympathetically about what he wants to do, then help him find multiple options that he could try that might work for him. You have to start very small and work up. What you have to do is make yourself the child's ally in solving the problems that are most important to him one by one.

Blow off the homework and the grades for now. Work on the lying and whatever of his problems are highest on his list of priorities.

Guess how I know? :-)

Avoid punishing an oppositional child if at all possible while you're building this alliance. Give him every opportunity to get caught doing something good, and make sure you openly appreciate it when he does--even the smallest things. Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." It could serve as a manual for working with an oppositional child.

After you have a good, solid rapport and have been checking everything and never, ever asking him anything he might be tempted to lie about for about a month, then you can start occasionally scolding him for bad behavior. You absolutely must pick your battles. Focus on the bad behaviors that do the most damage, that you haven't been able to find a way to handle with positive reinforcement.

How do you handle a bad behavior with positive reinforcement? If there's not an obvious good behavior you can reward, then you think up something neither good nor bad that he can't possibly do at the same time as the bad behavior, and you make a virtue out of that neutral thing. Ask him to do it, appreciate it--visibly and vocally--when he does. Make it another opportunity for him to get caught doing something right. Try to make the neutral, incompatible thing to be something as easy and pleasant as possible.

Usually, parental praise and open appreciation work much, much better than tangible bribes. Bribes have their place, like taking him out for a spontaneous special treat when he does something great. Mostly, in Carnegie's terms, you want to be, "Hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise."

You have to use a strategy with an oppositional child that you got used to using with him as a two year old--anticipate and outmaneuver.

Another thing--you don't have control over what he does, but you do have control over what you do. Read everything you can find in the library or on the net about having healthy boundaries and model them for him by giving him no outright control over what you do, but all control over what's within his healthy boundaries. Frequently, brattiness in kids involves trampling all over other people's boundaries. Frequently, the parents aren't all that clear on healthy boundaries and where the lines are. Learn. Make ferdamnsure you are not trampling his boundaries, and don't allow him to trample yours by letting him pull your strings. You having to do the work of healthy parenting does not constitute him pulling your strings.

John Bradshaw's books have a good load of touchy-feely crap in them, depending on your point of view, but they do a fantastic job of teaching healthy boundaries. Your library should either have them, or be able to get them for you on inter-library loan. Read them. Read each of them through and then go back and read them again. Take notes.

We've worked with our own eleven year old and we get told all the time, out of the blue, what a great kid she is.

What we did about homework was in our child's IEP (you can do it with a 504) we insisted that the school send home a notebook with all her assignments written in it, and make sure all her homework assignments and her notebook were in her backpack when she left school each day.

Then for a whole year (coincidentally, fourth grade) I sat down with her right when she got home and walked her through every bit of her homework. Then I made sure it was all in her backpack for the morning when she went back to school.

It helps to have two complese sets of books, one for home and one for school. You can specify this in his 504 or IEP, too.

By fifth grade, she wanted to do it herself instead of having mom looking over her shoulder and I had only limited, sporadic trouble getting her to do her homework. She only called me in when she was stuck.


We worked with a 17 year old foster daughter (living with us informally, not through the state) who was an unmedicated, freshly diagnosed bipolar, survivor of horrific child abuse, borderline personality disorder, cutter, psychologically unable to attend school.

In short, she was the kind of kid Program Parents throw up their hands over, ship off to a Program, and then tell us we just don't understand and nobody else would ever take their child in and help the poor kid. Her parents were also dirt poor and we had to rely on county mental health services based on their abiliity to pay.

That's why we had her, by the way. Her mother was leaving a rotten bum stepfather and had to get her financial and mental health act together to the bare minimum liveable level.

Don't even ask about her bio father, whom she had nothing but contempt for and called, "the sperm donor." He was the one didn't protect her from the horrific abuse by the wicked stepmother. She had good reason for that contempt.

So anyway, same methods. In the six months we had her, we got her properly diagnosed, started on the process of finding the right med combination to stabilize her bipolar disorder, continued her therapy and supporting her through it, stopped the cutting, got her solidly started on experiencing healthy boundaries, and got her past several of her significant phobias and blocks to taking care of her own basic needs around the house.

She went back to her mother a much healthier child, much easier to live with, and well on the way to stability and functionality than she came to us. She wasn't back in school, but she had a solid plan to work homeschool with a licensed teacher, prepare for taking her GED, and prepare for continuing her education at a junior college, preparatory to going to art school. She is a fabulously talented young artist.

So I do know what I'm talking about. The strategies I described above are gentle, compassionate, and they do work.

Other parents you can meet on CABF will be gentle, compassionate, and welcoming to you and will have a lot of their own tricks and tips for kind, loving ways of helping your child that work like all get out.

You will never get a child who functions as well as a child with no problems. There is no magic cure to go from big problems to no problems. There is no pill that reduces problems to just swallowing a pill in the morning, although depending on your kid's problems medication can be a flat out necessity.

However, you will get a child whose functionality is like night and day better for him.

Julie
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Offline exhausted

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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2007, 05:37:32 PM »
Once again I agree with Julie

Having been & still going through the whole school thing and the defiance, it really doesn't matter that your son isn't doing well at school, concentrating on what his problem is, is more important than anything else, he'll be no good to anyone or himself with a masters degree that he can't use because he's too ill to use it.

This is typical behaviour of a kid whose growing up too fast, it's a confusing time, he wants to be the man, but he's still a child, like another poster said, listen to him, let him voice his concerns, opinions, let him know its ok to be angry, fearful, happy - in my experience kids feel they aren't listened to, we've all done it, "This is adult talk, You will do as I say, I am the adult here, you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about" and so on - well actually they do have feelings, they do have opinions, they understand alot more than we give them credit for - there is so much we can learn from kids, yet we, the 'adults' are too proud/stupid/blind to admit they might actually have outsmarted us on a subject.

I had this great health visitor, she used to call children 'little people' never once did she call them children, kids, babies, she saw them all as people, it took me a long time to figure out how wise she was, that's exactly what they are.

I went to visit a friend last night and she was teling me that her usually very defiant and tantrum throwing son (aged 8) had cleaned her kitchen up with her, I had to ask how she got him to do it ... it's so simple, she gave him the towel to dry up and sung ten green bottles with him as he wiped each cup up so he could count them down, he then swept the floor after she was pretending the broom was a guitar - it became play combined with work, he actually enjoyed his chores!

Find every positive you can, ignore the tantrums and anger, talk when he is calm, take an interest in what school work he does do, praise him for every single little thing that is nice, even if it's a smile he gives you, an item of clothing he puts in the wash, a game he's played with you ... it all goes such a long way.

I hope you've found soe usefu advice here, try to destress and calm down, the more you dig your heels in, I can assure you, he will dig his deeper, do not start a rebellion you won't win.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2007, 06:44:30 PM »
Aw man! How are we all so certain that this kid is mentally ill? I did the same thing in 3rd grade. Me and Franky DeSanto just up and went on strike. If the teacher made us stay after, cool! We had free run of an open classroom plan building for awhile. Finally, she put her foot down and insisted that we would stay after school every day for an hour till all the work was done. Took us about half an hour.

Maybe this kid has just figured out that the school system is bullshit and most of what they teach is just rehash from last year's bullshit. That's just about exactly how I put it to my teacher when she finally asked us why we hadn't done the work. They put Franky and me both in the accelerated class, which was considerably more fun to disrupt cause we got to play with more challenging intellects in off site locations. But it was still the same ol'e bullshit.

Honestly, whether this is a real, sincere request for advice or a troll, the scenario is real enough and too often so.

Find out what he wants to do, if you don't already know. Does he want to be a pilot? Ok, he'll need help figuring out where to get lessons, how to pay for it and all the rest. But there's no age limit, or maybe it's 12 or something. Kids can do that. They can even get paper routes or do other useful things to help pay for things like this. Does he want to be a musician? What? Odds are, whatever might really pique his interest can't be done around the ever more demanding schooling requirements.

Take him out of school under the homeschooling statutes. Don't believe anything the local district tells you about compliance, there's a conflict of interests there on SO many levels! Read the statutes themselves and consult others w/ experience dealing with their and your local districts. Try and stay above any political or religious debate and just get the facts on the minimum requirement and future strategies for ongoing education or other worthy options.

If it's a simple as that he's too smart for the room, you don't have to worry much about his getting an education. He'll learn to read, write and do his maths and accounting just as well as he has to to accomplish whatever means something to him.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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