Lone Star Expeditions

[Oz girl]

What are the names of these Mystery people and which specific programs do they work for. Can you tell us which specific skills an MBA would be able to bring to working with troubled youngsters who do not always wish to be counselled? Cause as an accountant I cant think of how any business subjects i studied would be transferable to such an industry

Are you ok with the fact that programs advertise for high school grads with no experience necessary. Wouldnt this mean that such people would be more likely to go for the job as most graduates would want to earn more than 10 bucks an hour. It is the case for lonestar if the field instructors on their website are an indicator

[TheWho]

funny that the only staff the who listed have no names.  also, you claimed earlier that this kid "would have died anyway" regardless of his treatment or medications.  i'm still waiting for you to post the basis of this statement.  please post the link to where you got this information.

I don’t believe in posting peoples names unless it is necessary.  They can be found on LSE web site or I can PM you.

I did respond to you earlier, but it was along with a lot of other stuff so you might  have missed it, sorry about that.  The Autopsy information came from "LSE Counselor".  I dont think he will post the report on-line (I wouldn’t personally) but you could ask him to pont you in the right direction.  Here is the quote and link I referred to.

Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=254044#254044

[Troll Control]

oh, i see, you're basing your ridiculous claim of knowledge based on a second hand hearsay item from a nonidentified poster.

yes, that's very solid evidence. :roll:

[TheWho]

oh, i see, you're basing your ridiculous claim of knowledge based on a second hand hearsay item from a nonidentified poster.

yes, that's very solid evidence. :roll:

So what you are saying is we cant believe anyone here on fornits unless they give their real name and provide documented evidence.
Does this apply to everyone?  People who claim to be hurt by the industry?  Those who claim to be helped by the industry? Should we insist everyone show documented evidence of their accounts?

[Troll Control]

you stated this as if it were a fact, not as the opinion of someone who admittedly was not there.  that's all i'm saying.  you take second hand hearsay from an anonymous poster and present it as rock-solid fact.  that's all i'm saying.  that you specifically cannot be trusted in your statements because your sources are just anonymous internet posters which you then quote as "evidence" for this or that.  we can all read and see that the person you're quoting as having a copy of the autopsy report (a claim even they didn't make) wasn't there and is relying on someone else's account of his or her perception.  so you take this hearsay based on hearsay and call it "fact" - a phenomenon which you repeat over and over here.

all i'm saying, again, is that you, the who, are not a credible source of anything unless you have provided direct links to source documents,  otherwise you can't be believed.  it's really that simple.

[TheWho]

What are the names of these Mystery people and which specific programs do they work for.

I will pm them if you like.  They are listed on the website

Can you tell us which specific skills an MBA would be able to bring to working with troubled youngsters who do not always wish to be counselled? Cause as an accountant I cant think of how any business subjects i studied would be transferable to such an industry

A business is comprised of many people with many talents.  Not every employee that works for ford knows how to assemble a car.  A person with and MBA,and also a background in recreation gives the person the well rounded education need to lead others

Are you ok with the fact that programs advertise for high school grads with no experience necessary. Wouldnt this mean that such people would be more likely to go for the job as most graduates would want to earn more than 10 bucks an hour. It is the case for lonestar if the field instructors on their website are an indicator

I have no issue with that.  They have Field instructors and Head instructors, clinical team etc.  working together, each has their specific role.  As a society we don’t have expectations that everyone be degreed, even in the better hospitals, as I pointed out earlier.  They have people they pay 10/hr and others they may pay 50/hr and many in between.
From a parents perspective I would like to see at least one person with each group that is trained in CPR, first aid etc. and has experience in wilderness (has a few years under their belt)

[Deborah]

Who posted credentials of the Dir, Adm Coordinator and Therapists from LSEs website. Distracting from the discussion regarding the staff who are in the field with the kids everyday and their lack of credentials.
Didn't see any Doctorate Level Therapists as mentioned on the website.

Person 1: Masters degree in Business Administration from the University of Utah, a Masters degree in Recreation from George Williams College, and a Bachelors degree in Biological Science from Colorado State University
Bednarz, Michael, MS, MBA, LCCA Executive Director

Person 2: He is a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, a Certified Trauma Resolution Therapist, and has a degree in Substance Abuse.
Courtney, John, LCDC - Substance Abuse Counselor

Person 3: Master’s degree in Counseling from Ball State University, IN
Cacialli, Melissa, MA, LPCI - Wilderness Therapist

Person 4: Master’s degree in Counselor Education,
Robertson, Sarah, MA, LPC - Licensed Therapist

Person 5: Master of Arts in Community Counseling.
Cates, Melvin, MA - Field Manager

Person 6: Bachelor of Social Work from Stephen F. Austin State University ……interned at the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services in the foster and adoption department and served her senior internship at Nacogdoches Memorial Hospital
Rodgers, Nicole - Admissions Coordinator

[TheWho]

guest wrote:

you stated this as if it were a fact, not as the opinion of someone who admittedly was not there. that's all i'm saying. you take second hand hearsay from an anonymous poster and present it as rock-solid fact.

This was not LSE Counselors opinion, read it again.  

that's all i'm saying. that you specifically cannot be trusted in your statements because your sources are just anonymous internet posters which you then quote as "evidence" for this or that.

So if a person comes onto fornits and claims they were abused in a program we cant take that as fact?  We can only refer to it as opinion is what you are saying.  I don’t think this is right we need to believe peoples accounts and claims and be able to refer to them in a discussion as fact, shouldn’t we?  It would be unfair to all these kids that come on here to dismiss their claims and stories.

we can all read and see that the person you're quoting as having a copy of the autopsy report (a claim even they didn't make) wasn't there and is relying on someone else's account of his or her perception. so you take this hearsay based on hearsay and call it "fact" - a phenomenon which you repeat over and over here.

I was asked to provide a copy and I redirected them back to LSE counselor

[Troll Control]

there's a big distinction and you do yourself a disservice not to note it.  do you understand the differences between first-and accounts and second or thirs-hand accounts?

if someone comes on here and says "i was abused at such and such a place by so and so" that is first-hand (credibility of the poster notwithstanding).

what you say is "so and so heard from so and so that so and so was abused" - big difference.

credibility of the poster does come into account though.  and when you are posting is one of those times.  all you do is put the best possible industry spin on every event and call it "fact".  well, anyone who reads what you write knows you have a very narrow agenda, that is, to advertise programs, for whatever reason I can't say.  but, nonetheless, that's what you're here to do, so your credibility is very, very low to start with, notwithstanding the many factual errors you post.

once more, all i'm saying is, all things considered, from an objective viewpoint, you are not a credible poster and anyone who reads what you write can see that.

[Troll Control]

Who posted credentials of the Dir, Adm Coordinator and Therapists from LSEs website. Distracting from the discussion regarding the staff who are in the field with the kids everyday and their lack of credentials.
Didn't see any Doctorate Level Therapists as mentioned on the website.

Person 1: Masters degree in Business Administration from the University of Utah, a Masters degree in Recreation from George Williams College, and a Bachelors degree in Biological Science from Colorado State University
Bednarz, Michael, MS, MBA, LCCA Executive Director

Person 2: He is a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, a Certified Trauma Resolution Therapist, and has a degree in Substance Abuse.
Courtney, John, LCDC - Substance Abuse Counselor

Person 3: Master’s degree in Counseling from Ball State University, IN
Cacialli, Melissa, MA, LPCI - Wilderness Therapist

Person 4: Master’s degree in Counselor Education,
Robertson, Sarah, MA, LPC - Licensed Therapist

Person 5: Master of Arts in Community Counseling.
Cates, Melvin, MA - Field Manager

Person 6: Bachelor of Social Work from Stephen F. Austin State University ……interned at the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services in the foster and adoption department and served her senior internship at Nacogdoches Memorial Hospital
Rodgers, Nicole - Admissions Coordinator

I see.  @The Who:  Why would you post these people's credentials and represent them as the ones who are going to be with someone's children day in and day out?  

You know full well that these are office staff who would not be out in the woods with children.  People are talking about the ones that LSE is advertising to hire: "no experience" and "no degree" required.  heck, they say it themselves, but you try to deny it.  Amazing how many times you will destroy your own believability to try to get a "gotcha!" on someone.  Very childish and very diningenuous.  Just one of the reasons why nobody (even die hard program supporters) puts any stock in your responses.

Why, when you give the "program story" are there all highly educated professionals in place, but when you tell the "hospital story" you only say that there are unskilled workers there and forget to mention the highly qualified doctors and nurses?

It seems like you're constantly dissembling to make a point you're fishing for, but you keep getting caught representing things other than the facts.  It just makes you, and program supporters in general, look really bad.  At least the run-of-the-mill program supporters don't have to make things up; they just tell their stories.  You, you're a different animal - one with a financial stake in the businesses you promote, and it shows.

[TheWho]

credibility of the poster does come into account though. and when you are posting is one of those times. all you do is put the best possible industry spin on every event and call it "fact". well, anyone who reads what you write knows you have a very narrow agenda, that is, to advertise programs, for whatever reason I can't say. but, nonetheless, that's what you're here to do, so your credibility is very, very low to start with, notwithstanding the many factual errors you post.

Credibility of the poster does come into play.  I think everyone that comes on here knows each has a position.  I try to bring balance to the dialog by pointing out the pieces that are left out.  How many times have you seen a new thread started discussing improvements made within the industry or a school who hires a new director who is clinical and more fact based.  What you typically see here is the dirty laundry, mistakes that are made which should be brought out.  But in order to see the entire picture you need different perspectives.

LSE Counselor gave one perspective and brought to the table what he knew and others piped in with comments like:

 “Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.

I didn’t see a credible source or a link to back this up, either.  Is this fact?  Someone’s opinion? Sarcasm?

You see me as not credible because I challenge the facts that are brought to the discussion.  The bottom line is none of us know what went on when this child died except the people that were there and the reports that came from them.  

When LSE Counselor gave his account he was meet with:
“Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.”

Because some people here on fornits don’t want to hear the whole truth, just the small parts that help them to justify painting the entire industry as evil.

[RobertBruce]

Who do you believe Elvis to still be alive?

Im not being a jackass I'm using it to make a point.

[TheWho]

Who do you believe Elvis to still be alive?

Im not being a jackass I'm using it to make a point.

No,  but it is fun watching all these people dress up and jump out of airplanes dressed like him.  Whats up with that?

[RobertBruce]

Is it possible he is still alive?

What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.

Creedence not credibility, I'm not looking for evidence.

[TheWho]

What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.

They are big fans of Elvis, they don’t really believe it themselves, but they find it fun to keep him alive in their minds.  People know this so they capitalize on it by dressing up like him and getting paid to entertain others.